Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He has a WAR the last 5 seasons of 18.1 which ranks 19th in all of baseball for starting pitchers.

    What happened five years ago

    [/QUOTE]


    How about last season then. Does that count when deciding if a guy is good or not? Also pitched more then half of his innings in the AL last year.

    He ranked 26th in ERA, 32nd in WAR, and 39th in xFIP among starters with atleast 100 innings pitched.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    To quote someone else here: "Ryan Dempster went 7-3 with a 5.09 ERA and WAR of 1.2 in 12 starts for the Texas Rangers." He is not good enough to play for a contending team, so if that is the goal, he should stay where he is, off the roster.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ryan Dempster reminds me of Hiroki Kuroda of last offseason, but a year younger. Like Kuroda, Dempster is considered a National League pitcher. Here are the numbers for Kuroda's four-year National League career and the numbers for Dempster's last five seasons (all but 12 starts in the National League):

    Kuroda 41-46 WL, 699.0 IP, 3.45 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 523 K, 163 BB, 113 ERA+

    Dempster 65-49 WL, 997 IP, 3.74 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 911 K, 361 BB, 114 ERA+

    Kuroda has been valued at 15.8 WAR over the last five years, including his successful 2012 season in the AL East, while Dempster has been valued at 18.1 WAR over the same period.

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.


    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    To quote someone else here: "Ryan Dempster went 7-3 with a 5.09 ERA and WAR of 1.2 in 12 starts for the Texas Rangers." He is not good enough to play for a contending team, so if that is the goal, he should stay where he is, off the roster.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    I hope you understand that 7-3 and WAR of 1.2 in 12 starts are excellent numbers.

     

    Its almost like the guys name is more important then his numbers. Amazing.

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.



    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

     

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    I thought of Kuroda as a comparison aswell. The biggest differences was that Dempster played on a worse team and a much worse pitchers park.

     

    BTW, its almost like if you pitched in the naional league you don't count.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.



    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

     

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

    [/QUOTE]
    Hill - Your statistical analysis is all well and good, but did you see him pitch last year? And again, National League. Dempster is garbage and the Red Sox would be smart to stay away. He stinks.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.



    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

     

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    I thought of Kuroda as a comparison aswell. The biggest differences was that Dempster played on a worse team and a much worse pitchers park.

     

    BTW, its almost like if you pitched in the naional league you don't count.

    [/QUOTE]
    In a lot of cases you don't count. Look at Beckett on the Red Sox and on the Dodgers. Why spend the money on a guy that won't help the Red Sox win anything next year, because the Red Sox aren't good enough to win anything NEXT YEAR. Why spend the money? Because Lucchino and all can make up the bs excuse that they spent the money, on junk.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Why spend the money on a guy that won't help the Red Sox win anything next year, because the Red Sox aren't good enough to win anything NEXT YEAR. 

     

    I happen to agree with this point.

    It scares the living H3LL OUT OF ME to agree with ADG!

    Maybe I need a long vacaction away from Sox baseball.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to MadMc44's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He's a .500 pitcher averaging 200 inn. a year. He'll be 36 at the start of next season.

    He knows how to pitch, how to keep his team in the game and he will be a great influence on the younger pitchers. I would say get Marcum or Jackson or trade for Floyd and trade either Lester or Buch whichever one can get the best return. Trade Ells and sign The Splendid Swisher and we should be good to go.

    [/QUOTE]

    Dont ever do that again please. Never confuse the "Splendid Splinter" with swisher...Not in the same league...

    Dempster would be a horrible signing.

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.



    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

     

     

     

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

    [/QUOTE]




    And Dempster's took a dive when he came over to the AL.  Forget WAR.  The real point in comparing Kuroda to Dempster is that Ben was not willing to sign Kuroda, and the Yankees signed him for 1 year at 10 million or so.  Why then, if they are somewhat comparable, would Ben sign Dempster for 2 or more years for 12.5 or more per year?  Just another overpay for mediocre talent.  If you are going to overpay, do it for Sanchez and Hamilton...the top talents available.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

     

    I really hope that another GM jumps in and signs Dempster instead. 

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    And Dempster's took a dive when he came over to the AL.  Forget WAR.  The real point in comparing Kuroda to Dempster is that Ben was not willing to sign Kuroda, and the Yankees signed him for 1 year at 10 million or so.  Why then, if they are somewhat comparable, would Ben sign Dempster for 2 or more years for 12.5 or more per year?  Just another overpay for mediocre talent.  If you are going to overpay, do it for Sanchez and Hamilton...the top talents available.


    Like John Lackey and Carl Crawford in their free agent years.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NegativeTrollsAbound. Show NegativeTrollsAbound's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Fck this Dempster idea.  Another Matt Clement.

    move on Ben.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Splendid Swisher

    LOL MadMc44's

    sounds like a circus act

    actually not that far off

    anyone remember this play

     

     

     

     

     

     





    for a guy known for

    not hitting in the post season

    he did score a most entertaining run in the 09 WS

     

     

     

     

     

     

     Funny-tag-out_medium

                ''the splendid swisher''

     

    no offense 777

    [/QUOTE]


    none taken zac...That was an entertaining run...Not really "offended" by "splendid Swisher", Just of the opinion certain nicknames should be left well enough alone with certain players.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tripleb2066. Show tripleb2066's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Dempster would be awful in Boston. AWFUL.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    And Dempster's took a dive when he came over to the AL.  Forget WAR.  The real point in comparing Kuroda to Dempster is that Ben was not willing to sign Kuroda, and the Yankees signed him for 1 year at 10 million or so.  Why then, if they are somewhat comparable, would Ben sign Dempster for 2 or more years for 12.5 or more per year?  Just another overpay for mediocre talent.  If you are going to overpay, do it for Sanchez and Hamilton...the top talents available.



    Like John Lackey and Carl Crawford in their free agent years.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Both those players had lingering arm injuries when they signed. Not sure dempster does.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    A C. Montgomery Burns grunt and sneer of revulsion for this potential move.  

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Again, how a pitcher performed four or five years ago is irrelevant. How he did over the last year or two IS important, especially if he pitched on a contending AL team. That counts.



    Over the past two seasons Ryan Dempster has posted a WAR of 6.0 while Hiroki Kuroda posted a WAR of 6.1.

     

    In 2011, when both pitched in the National League, Dempster posted a WAR of 2.7 while Kuroda posted a WAR of 2.2. In 2012, Kuroda's WAR jumped to 3.9 with his move to the American League East.

    [/QUOTE]

    A 35 YO pitcher who has pitched most of his time in the NL and who had an ERA of over 5 when he tried to pitch for a contender in the AL is not an improvement over who we now have on staff. He is irrelevant. We need an ace. Obtaining Dumpster is not going to solve anything.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Dempster was very good in 2012 (pre-trade) and 2008...pretty good in '09 and '10. He was bad in 2011 and for his entire career prior to 2008 (first as a starter, then as a reliever). His career NL ERA was 4.31 with a 1.43 WHIP. 

    He will be 36 for the bulk of next season and wants north of $25 million (which, to me, would be worse than doing nothing). There's no reason to imagine that dropping him into the AL East at this phase of his career, with his track record, will be a recipe for success, and we have other guys already on the roster or in the high minors (Aceves, Morales, Tazawa, De La Rosa, Webster) who I suspect could give us as good or better numbers. Forgive me for not being excited about this guy. Is this really the best way to spend $25 million?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    And Dempster's took a dive when he came over to the AL.  Forget WAR.  The real point in comparing Kuroda to Dempster is that Ben was not willing to sign Kuroda, and the Yankees signed him for 1 year at 10 million or so.  Why then, if they are somewhat comparable, would Ben sign Dempster for 2 or more years for 12.5 or more per year?  Just another overpay for mediocre talent.  If you are going to overpay, do it for Sanchez and Hamilton...the top talents available.



    Like John Lackey and Carl Crawford in their free agent years.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    southpaw's very valid point aside, I'll go there.  Yes, Lackey was the best pitching talent available that off-season, and I supported the signing then.  The Sox looked to need a good #4 or #5 starter to complete their rotation, with Lester and Beckett the presumptive co-aces, along with Matsuzaka having pitched two good years and a young Buchholz  looking to come back and rediscover the pitcher in him that had pitched a no-hitter.  Lackey, who really would have slotted in as a #2 or #3 on most teams looked to be a strong addition to a devastating rotation; an affordable luxury for the Sox at the time because of the cost controlled contracts of Lester and Buchholz.  Additionally, the Sox knew there was a possibility of arm injury and protected themselves with language in the contract (as I suggest they do with Sanchez if they sign him).  And I will reserve my final judgement of the contract and Lackey's ability to pitch up to it once all is said and done.  If (and I know this is a big "if") Lackey returns to pitch as he did in 2009 and 2010, then he will not be such a bad overpay, especially considering the inflation of contracts (an argument I used to support the salary offered back when he was signed).

    Sanchez is a very similar pitcher, according to stats.  A bit younger, but a recognized injury risk and astoundingly similar lifetime WHIP (I choose to discount ERA and W-L for comparison as they are too situationally dependent).

    As for Crawford.  He was arguably not the best OFer on the market that off-season; nor was he even the Sox's top choice that off-season.  The Sox overpaid because they got into a bidding war with the Angels after losing out on Werth, who was clearly the better fit for Boston.  In addition, Crawford came to the Sox with lingering health issues that were ignored in a rush to sign the biggest OF name left on the market, only to end up with an insurance policy if Ellsbury was unable to return from injury.  So yes, OF was a need, but at the time Crawford was a duplication of what Ellsbury offered if healthy, and thus never a good fit or absolutely necessary.  None of us could have known then that Crawford's production could have been duplicated by a $3 million per type of player.  As I have stated in the past, I believe Crawford may yet play to a high level and prove to be worth about 15 - 17 million a year.  But his $21 million per salary would still prove to be a huge overpay considering his talent level.

    Hamilton is a game changer.  In an off year he hit 43 HRs and drove in 128 runs.  He strikes out a lot (so did Crawford) but he walks at a higher rate than even Gonzalez.  Crawford will never come close to that kind of production because only an elite few in baseball come close to that kind of production.

    The Sox's need for an outfielder of consequence is arguable at this point.  But their need for an impact bat is not, IMO.  Without AGon they do not have the same production they had at the start of 2012.

    Their need for starting pitching has been an issue ever since signing Lackey, due to injuries to Lackey, Buchholz and Matsuzaka, and inconsistency from Beckett and Lester.  Last year the Sox addressed it by signing low-cost, high-reward guys, like they had when they signed Penny and Smoltz after passing on CC Sabatthia due to his high cost.  Didn't work last year, didn't work then.  But we were told Ben was tied by the huge contracts already burdening the team.  Said burden has been kindly removed by the Dodgers.  We are all waiting to see how Ben spends the money.  Dempster at 25 million or more is a dumb waste.  Save that money and spend it on some real SP talent.  And yes, that should be Sanchez, IMO.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Red Sox, Dempster Nearing Deal By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 13, 2012 at 8:52am CST]

    The Red Sox are close to a deal with Ryan Dempster, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports (on Twitter). Rosenthal reported yesterday that the Red Sox were in serious talks with Dempster. LSW Baseball represents the free agent right-hander.

    Dempster, 35, posted a 3.38 ERA with 8.0 K/9, 2.7 BB/9 and a 43.5% ground ball rate in 173 innings for the Cubs and Rangers in 2012. The 15-year veteran saw his average fastball velocity dip below 90 mph, but he continued generating swings and misses. His 10.4% swinging strike rate was right around his career mark of 10.8%. He's not linked to draft pick compensation, which means the Red Sox won't have to surrender a pick to complete a deal.

    Earlier in the offseason Dempster turned down a two-year, $25MM offer from the Boston. The Brewers and Royals have also been linked to Dempster, who ranked 16th on MLBTR's list of top 50 free agents this year.

    The Red Sox could use rotation depth for the 2013 season. Their current rotation options include Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, Felix Doubront, John Lackey and Franklin Morales.

     

     

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-dempster-nearing-deal.html

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Sox and Dempster in serious discussions

    Ugh.The way this team is shaping up,I think they'll be lucky to be 81-81.

     

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