2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Mike Piazza
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Bonds and Clemens should be admitted, if it is for what the players did on the field during the era. Both were the best among their peers, during their era. The media character litmus test is truly a joke, given the pitiful character of those that dominate the mass media agenda.
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]Curt Schilling
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    Agree with you about Schilling.  He definitely deserves to be in the hall of fame. 
     
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    Schilling does not deserve to be in the HOF, but since other lesser on the field politcal favorites are in, Schilling should not be denied inclusion.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from never1954. Show never1954's posts

    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Pete Rose.....


    Roger Clemens
    Barry Bonds
    Jeff Bagwell
    Mike Piazza

     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    both bonds and clemens should get in, but not next year.  they both have too much hanging over them right now to get in.  piazza should get in, not sure about first ballot or not.  the guy was a hitting machine but not a good defensive catcher and a weak arm.  schilling is borderline.  sosa, no way.  bagwell, eventually he will get in...right now too much speculation about him and steroids.
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Schilling, Biggio, or Bagwell.  I have yet to hear either Schilling or Biggio name tossed in with the steroid era, and if you wanted to avoid steroid players they would be the logical players to pick.  If you wanted to go with an on the fence player I would go with Bagwell.  It's a tough call with Bagwell, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who took steroids. 

    Sosa, Mac, Bonds, and Clemens should all be barred from the HOF, because in the end they did not earn it, the steroids did.  It would be like telling young stars today it's ok to cheat...no one cares you will get in the HOF anyways.  

     
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    I find it extremely laughable that there are a few here that beleive BONDS   CLEMENS AND SOSA HAVE A CHANCE TO GET IN THE HOF .


    Good luck with that thinking
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Schilling is an interesting case because his career W/L record, which correct or not is huge for HOF voting, is underwhelming by HOF standards.  He as far fewer wins than a guy like Jack Morris, who can't seem to get in.  Schill, had a handful of dominant years, and has one of the great post-season records of all time but that alone will likely not be enough to get him in, if Morris, who also had some memorable post-seasons, 10 SO innings in game 7, can't get in.

    As to the Bonds and Clemens case, I say they were 2 of the most dominating players of their era and would be no brainer HOFamers if not for the PED questions.  I personally don't think that HOF voting needs to turn into an opportunity for sports writers to play moral police and therefore firmly believe Bonds and Clemens are both HOFamers. 

    They same rules have always applied, JUDGE A PLAYER AGAINST HIS ERA.  I have no problem with the mentioning of the PED suspicion or era on their HOF plaques but to simply ignore a generation of players is not an option.  If Bonds took Clemens deep, was anyone really cheating?  It simply raises the bar for the era, where a guy like Bagwell becomes more marginal despite his huge numbers, because everyone had huge numbers. 

    You will never convince me that Bonds, Clemens, Manny, and Arod are not Hall of Famers.  And for the Pedro's and Jeter's of the era, who were never linked to PED's, it just elevates their greatness.
     
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    Piazza would get my only vote as a first year entry to the hall.  He was one of the best catchers of all time, a small step below Johnny Bench (better O, worse D).  I would support Schilling a year or two down the road, in part because of his connection with the Sox in 2004.  If he was not part of that history, I would be less inclined to support him for Cooperstown.  Biggio is an interesting case but despite 3000 hits he would not get my vote.  I never considered him a superstar.

    Until some general eligibility policy is available on the PED class, I would not consider Bonds, Clemens or Sosa.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Piazza and Bagwell. 2013

    Schilling and Biggio 2014

    Bonds Clemens 2015
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Mike Piazza, the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Not counting non-first ballot guys, here are my thoughts:

    Piazza- Yes, first ballot. Anything else would be crazy...he's arguably the best hitting catcher ever! Most HRs, twice led the league in OPS+, and his career OPS+ puts him at roughly the same level as ARod, Albert Belle, Prince Fielder, Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and Vladamir Guerrero. Look at that list! Every one of those guys produced at HOF quality (though some such as Belle had too short a career for the HOF), and Piazza matched that despite playing the draining catcher position. His weaknesses behind the plate keep him from being the best catcher ever, but he was good enough to stick there his whole career.

    Biggio- Yes, not first ballot. Some fairly criticize him as an "accumulator", but those people also forget that Biggio played 2B, not a corner position (plus he offered speed). That rep and the crowded field may keep him out for a while, but he'll get in (the player with the highest career hit total to not make the HOF, not counting roiders/gamblers, is Harold Baines at 2866. Biggio had 3060).

    Schilling- No, unless steroid-era pitching becomes more valued over time. He's close, but his career just took a little too long to get going. He and Jack Morris can thumb their noses at all the HOF pitchers who weren't so great in the playoffs...

    Sosa- Heck no. Outside of his clearly steroid-assisted seasons, Sosa did not produce at a HOF caliber. The only reason he enters the discussion is due to steroids, and that makes him an easy drop.

    Bonds/Clemens- Not right away, and maybe never. It comes down to a clear debate: do their steroid transgressions wipe out the near-certain fact that they were HOF-level players before they probably began using the PEDs? If you take the character part of HOF candidacy seriously, the answer will likely be "yes". If you want to acknowlege how good they were regardless of steroids, the answer is "no", and you put them in the hall. It should take some time to settle this. Personally, I think it's far more abhorrent to use steroids because being a HOF isn't good enough and you want to be an inner-circle HOFer (Bonds and Clemens) than it is to use steroids because you might not be good enough to stick around in MLB without them (as is perhaps the case with, say, Rafael Palmeiro). So I say no.
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]Piazza would get my only vote as a first year entry to the hall.  He was one of the best catchers of all time, a small step below Johnny Bench (better O, worse D).  I would support Schilling a year or two down the road, in part because of his connection with the Sox in 2004.  If he was not part of that history, I would be less inclined to support him for Cooperstown.  Biggio is an interesting case but despite 3000 hits he would not get my vote.  I never considered him a superstar. Until some general eligibility policy is available on the PED class, I would not consider Bonds, Clemens or Sosa.
    Posted by phxvlsoxfan[/QUOTE]

    It is widely believed that Piazza used PED's and even reported in the Mitchell report that at one point Piazza admitted his use to a reporter.

    Below is a quote from former Red Sox Reggie Jefferson regarding Piazza.

    "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it," says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. "It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched."

    So you want to put Piazza in but have special eligibility requirements for guys like Bonds and Clemens because they became more high profile due to their accomplishments?  It makes no sense. 

     
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    More on Piazza the legendary Juicer......

    "There was nothing more obvious than Mike on steroids," says another major league veteran who played against Piazza for years. "Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. 'Power from nowhere,' we called it."

    When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn't pause.

    "A 12," he says. "Maybe a 13."
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]Piazza and Bagwell. 2013 Schilling and Biggio 2014 Bonds Clemens 2015
    Posted by beavis[/QUOTE]

    None of those guys are going to get in soon IMO, with the possibility of Piazza, who's steroid suspect. 
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]More on Piazza the legendary Juicer...... "There was nothing more obvious than Mike on steroids," says another major league veteran who played against Piazza for years. "Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. 'Power from nowhere,' we called it." When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn't pause. "A 12," he says. "Maybe a 13."
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Agree, but anyone who can't answer a 1-10 question (absurd anyways I believe) with a 1-10 answer is not credible, or worse yet, infantile.

    Perhaps a % guess is better (but keep it from 0-100); in that case, IMO Piazza has at least a 90% chance of having being a juicer. As far as him breaking down, Catching will do that to you; even in his prime he almost always had lousy Septembers due to the toll that position was taking on him.
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]Schilling, Biggio, or Bagwell.  I have yet to hear either Schilling or Biggio name tossed in with the steroid era, and if you wanted to avoid steroid players they would be the logical players to pick.  If you wanted to go with an on the fence player I would go with Bagwell.  It's a tough call with Bagwell, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who took steroids.  Sosa, Mac, Bonds, and Clemens should all be barred from the HOF, because in the end they did not earn it, the steroids did.  It would be like telling young stars today it's ok to cheat...no one cares you will get in the HOF anyways.  
    Posted by Peddy15[/QUOTE] 
    By that standard both Manny and ARod would be banned too, which I'm fine with.
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in? : Hey CamelWalk ( previously MikeyintheBronx) , did you see the message that good Yankee buddy J-Bay left you in your Message Box? Has anyone looked up the definition of the term "CamelWalk" in the Urban Dictionary? How about "Elephant Walk"? Mikey's moniker was once CamelToe. I'll bet that his all time favorite movie was Animal House. Two peas in a pod ( an alleged Red Sox fan and an alleged Yankee fan ). Strange bed fellows.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
    What are you getting at BeaconHill, I mean Chris House, I mean Pike.....
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in? : What are you getting at BeaconHill, I mean Chris House, I mean Pike.....
    Posted by Camelwalk[/QUOTE]

    Don't deflect.
    My identity is not the issue.
    Respond to the post.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in? : Don't deflect. My identity is not the issue. Respond to the post.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    I don't recall there ever being a Cameltoe on the forum, I remember the guy with the Teddy Savalas moniker used to call me that but I don't remember there actually being a Cameltoe....maybe you used that between BeaconHill and UticaClub....you've had so many it must be confusing for you.
     
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    Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?

    Is it possible that as a collective "we"..we are taking the HOF voting and membership far too seriously?

    The voting is subjective.

    There are many already inducted who were not deserving in the quality of player they were....

    There are many who found and used "edges" to enhance their performance..

    I think the criteria should be how did the player compare against the other players of THEIR era...not some other era, because their have been field (mounds, baseballs, bats) and medical/drug differences in various eras..

    McGuire was outstanding as a young player (without steroids)..every bit as good as Foxx...why deny him anything, because he was clearly outstanding among his peers who had access to the same advantages.
     
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    In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Hall Of Fame Candidates-Who do you believe should be voted in? : It is widely believed that Piazza used PED's and even reported in the Mitchell report that at one point Piazza admitted his use to a reporter. Below is a quote from former Red Sox Reggie Jefferson regarding Piazza. "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it," says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. "It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched." So you want to put Piazza in but have special eligibility requirements for guys like Bonds and Clemens because they became more high profile due to their accomplishments?  It makes no sense. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    If this is true, and Piazza was a PED user he falls into the same category as Bonds, Clemens, et al. I have never heard him linked to PEDs and you don't see the big body change with time like you did with Bonds and Rocket.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a user, Palmiero didn't have the noticable physical changes and he is an admitted user.

    This raises a good issue; if you keep PED users out, do you only exclude those publically exposed, or those formally convicted either in the court or by failed drug tests? It makes it real hard to draw a line in the sand. It shouldn't have anything to do with their accomplishments on the field - if they weren't highly accomplished stars they wouldn't even be considered for the HOF anyway.

    Hopefully those members of the writers assn who actually vote are better informed. I guess if Piazza doesn't get strong support next year from the voters it will be an indication of his use, because his numbers should make him a shoe-in.
     

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