A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  

    [/QUOTE]

    In a nutshell, because Beltran also plays defense.

    Keeping in mind that I don't agree with this thought....

    Papi's being the best pure DH in history may work against him in getting into the HOF.  It's somewhat an injustice because Papi isn't a bad 1Bman.  He just had the (mis)fortune to become a full-time DH so his defensive capabilities are overlooked. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Not for me. Have no clue how his stats would have been if he had played the field. OK since he is a DH, if he hit .400  or better in a season, and had a Career BA, of over .333 then I might consider it.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from djcbuffum. Show djcbuffum's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Beltran is also just one of eight players all-time to have 300 HR and 300 steals. Papi has like, what, 10 career steals?

    Beltran's case is strengthened by the fact that he was a great all-around player with both speed and power. Papi has a case for the HOF, but he shouldn't be compared to Beltran. Papi needs to be compared to other full-time DHs.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not for me. Have no clue how his stats would have been if he had played the field. OK since he is a DH, if he hit .400  or better in a season, and had a Career BA, of over .333 then I might consider it.

    [/QUOTE]

    So your argument is that because Ortiz is a DH, he would need other-worldy stats to get into the HOF, even though he is the best DH in MLB history. Sorry but I couldn't disagree more because expecting a .333 career AVG is silly at best.

     

    Hetch 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    .287 career batting avg. Ortiz, Ted Simmons .285. I think it would not be fair at all.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to djcbuffum's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Beltran is also just one of eight players all-time to have 300 HR and 300 steals. Papi has like, what, 10 career steals?

    Beltran's case is strengthened by the fact that he was a great all-around player with both speed and power. Papi has a case for the HOF, but he shouldn't be compared to Beltran. Papi needs to be compared to other full-time DHs.

    [/QUOTE]

    Point taken, but Beltran granted has more steals over a career, but on the other hand that is only one category whereas Papi is well ahead in other important categories which for me far outweigh the 300 steals. And yes he can and should be compared to Beltran as both will be in HOF voting at most likely the same time. Voters will be comparing both when considering who to cast a ballot for. Also my point of much higher MVP stats weighs heavily in Ortiz favor because that tells me that the folks who vote for the MVP have thought that Ortiz has been more valuable to his team than Beltran ever has.

    Hetch 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    .287 career batting avg. Ortiz, Ted Simmons .285. I think it would not be fair at all.

     

    So you base voting to the HOF on batting average alone. Sorry but one does not base HOF voting on AVG alone. Simmons played for 21 years Ortiz 17 and his stats overall pale to Ortiz. One cannot go on batting avg only, it is the sum of all of the stats amassed over a long career so your argument holds water like a sieve with lots of holes.

    Hetch 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    The Papi/Edgar Martinez issue is one that the HOF is going to have to deal with.  To the best of my memory those are the only two players who were dedicated DH's on Championship teams.

    IMHO it is patently unfair to bar any player because he only played one way IF that player was the best at his position.  However, because he only played one way the offensive bar should a bit higher for a DH than a position player.  He doesn't have to be the best hitter ever to get into the Hall, but he should be significantly better than the average HOF hitter. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Papi/Edgar Martinez issue is one that the HOF is going to have to deal with.  To the best of my memory those are the only two players who were dedicated DH's on Championship teams.

    IMHO it is patently unfair to bar any player because he only played one way IF that player was the best at his position.  However, because he only played one way the offensive bar should a bit higher for a DH than a position player.  He doesn't have to be the best hitter ever to get into the Hall, but he should be significantly better than the average HOF hitter. 

    [/QUOTE]

    S5, 

    You bring up a good point. And taking that in point if one adds the DH position to the HOF voters then both Martinez and Ortiz deserve serious consideration and both should get in as both are far and away better than any other DH so far.

    Hetch 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    According to the media, his biggest obstacle is the PED whispers; otherwise, as inarguably the greatest DH ever, with some unparalleled incredible PS moments, he's a shoo-in.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    .287 career batting avg. Ortiz, Ted Simmons .285. I think it would not be fair at all.

    [/QUOTE]

    So you're looking at one stat?

    The fact that he was just a DH shouldn't be held against him. It's a position, just like any other. Yes, a great SS can have lesser offensive numbers because of his glove. A DH needs to have great batting numbers but it shouldn't be unreasonable.

    Right now, I say no to the Hall. Career numbers aren't quite there. However, if he plays three more years and averages 25 HRs, 90 RBIs, 150 hits and 30 doubles, 80 runs, 65 BBs, he'll finish:

    506 HRs -- 26th all-time, he's 45th now.

    1,699 RBIs -- Tied for 25th. However if he reaches 1,705, he'll move up to 22nd. He's 65th now.

    2,473 hits -- Around 99th. He's 260th.

    610 doubles -- 11th or 12th all time.He's 46th now.

    1,448 runs -- 78th all time. He's at 171 now.

    1,282 BBs -- 45th all time. He's tied for 82nd now. 

    For the career rankings, of the active players, I'm also assuming that Pujols stays ahead of him (in all categories but walks; Ortiz already is ahead). So if Pujols career suddenly ends, you can move Ortiz ahead one spot.

    So to me, if he reaches all those numbers, I say he should be a lock -- especially if he surpasses the HR, RBI and doubles numbers. If he falls short, then depending on by how much and in what categories, it's remains open for debate.

    The DH thing to me should be a non-issue. And the averages I mentioned isn't too out of reach, especially if he has another good year this year.

    He could go 30-100, 25-90, 20-80 in HR-RBI.

    However, his decline could start this year. Last year could have been the 30-100 in my above example, and he could go 25-90 then 20-80 over the next two years. Then it becomes if he plays another year (or more) and what his numbers end up being.

    So in my long-winded analysis, if Ortiz can stay productive for at least three more years, he could become an easy HOF pick.

    If he reaches my averages for the next three years then adds another one or two of mediocre numbers 14 HR, 50 RBI range -- he becomes even more of a lock (528 HR, 1,800 RBIs).

     

    If he start to fade this year and still play two more years beyond this year with pedestrian numbers, then it remains a debate.

    Ortiz's postseaon numbers shouldn't be overlooked -- 82 games, 21 doubles, 17 HR, 60 RBIs, .295 BA, .962 OPS, including a .455 BA in 14 World Series games.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from niton. Show niton's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Papi/Edgar Martinez issue is one that the HOF is going to have to deal with.  To the best of my memory those are the only two players who were dedicated DH's on Championship teams.

    IMHO it is patently unfair to bar any player because he only played one way IF that player was the best at his position.  However, because he only played one way the offensive bar should a bit higher for a DH than a position player.  He doesn't have to be the best hitter ever to get into the Hall, but he should be significantly better than the average HOF hitter. 

    [/QUOTE]


    No to menton, its not like the overwhelming majortity of players in the Hall are there for defense.  That defense was only considered as a token act with mandatory participation only should not matter. 

     

    There are numerous jokes in the HOF voting process, and their prejudice against DH is only one of them.   I don't get why players get 15 tries to get in.  Jim Rice was admitted on his 15th time on the ballot.  Exactly what kind of season did he have between his 14th and 15th years on the ballot that put him over the top?

     

    The BBWAA needs to make the following changes:

     

    1.  anyone who refuses to vote for an incredibly obvious candidate like Greg Maddux, simply becuase Babe Ruth was not elected unaminously should have their voting rights stripped and should never be allowed to cover any sport except Slamball.

     

    2.  anyone who uses the phrase "first ballot Hall of Famer" as if they differ in other ways should also lose voting rights.  They shuld also be stripped naked, painted purple, and let floating on a leaky raft in the Artic Circle with that FOX host Megyn Kelly and that guy who osts "What Would You Do".

     

    3.  Fifteen tries? That is stupid.  Unless a player becomes an executive, manager or umpire or something.  Either you are a Hal of Famer or you are not.  You get one try.  The BBWAA voting members need to realize this and adjust their stupid voting strategies accordingly.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to niton's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Papi/Edgar Martinez issue is one that the HOF is going to have to deal with.  To the best of my memory those are the only two players who were dedicated DH's on Championship teams.

    IMHO it is patently unfair to bar any player because he only played one way IF that player was the best at his position.  However, because he only played one way the offensive bar should a bit higher for a DH than a position player.  He doesn't have to be the best hitter ever to get into the Hall, but he should be significantly better than the average HOF hitter. 

    [/QUOTE]


    No to menton, its not like the overwhelming majortity of players in the Hall are there for defense.  That defense was only considered as a token act with mandatory participation only should not matter. 

     

    There are numerous jokes in the HOF voting process, and their prejudice against DH is only one of them.   I don't get why players get 15 tries to get in.  Jim Rice was admitted on his 15th time on the ballot.  Exactly what kind of season did he have between his 14th and 15th years on the ballot that put him over the top?

     

    The BBWAA needs to make the following changes:

     

    1.  anyone who refuses to vote for an incredibly obvious candidate like Greg Maddux, simply becuase Babe Ruth was not elected unaminously should have their voting rights stripped and should never be allowed to cover any sport except Slamball.

     

    2.  anyone who uses the phrase "first ballot Hall of Famer" as if they differ in other ways should also lose voting rights.  They shuld also be stripped naked, painted purple, and let floating on a leaky raft in the Artic Circle with that FOX host Megyn Kelly and that guy who osts "What Would You Do".

     

    3.  Fifteen tries? That is stupid.  Unless a player becomes an executive, manager or umpire or something.  Either you are a Hal of Famer or you are not.  You get one try.  The BBWAA voting members need to realize this and adjust their stupid voting strategies accordingly.

    [/QUOTE]

    I might be wrong, but I don't think the BBWAA makes up the rules. The members vote, but I'm pretty sure it's the Hall of Fame that makes up the rules that the voters are supposed to follow.

    And 15 years might be long, but on the other hand nothing is black and white. There is reasonable grey area that reasonable people can disagree on and even change their mind about. Just because someone might vote for a guy in the first year or first couple of years, doesn't make him wrong if he re-evaluates a player's career.

    I never bought that idea that "if you have to think about it, he's not a Hall of Fame." There are guys already in that don't meet that criteria so it would be unfair to suddenly use that as a rationale. Comparing guys within their own era and against players from other eras isn't an easy task. 

    My problem with those who criticize the BBWAA members for their voting is this. Yes, there are some idiots who deserve ridicule for their voting. But as soon as you open the voting to more than a few, you're going to get that sort of behavior no matter who makes up the body. I like the idea that a few hundred vote. It usually will help negate the one or two idiots that might emerge each year.

    And yes, there are some guys who should be unanimous. But if a Maddus, for example, gets in on the first ballot, does it really matter if he got 90 percent, 98 percent or 100 percent of the vote. Too much has been made of this. Either you got enough votes or didn't. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from HailToTheKing. Show HailToTheKing's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  

    [/QUOTE]


    I really think he is a HOF'r NOW and I think he will get in at some point.  The guy SHOULD be mentioned as one of the best clutch BIG GAME performers of all time.  He has done things in the big games when it mattered most that some of the so called 'legends' out there could not do.  His number should be enough once he retires but I really think what will set him apart from the normal 'DH' arguement is what he did when it mattered.  To me that CLEARLY offsets the boring DH arguement. 

    With all of that said...I agree with what a lot of people have been saying about needing to clean up the HOF voting situation.  Take a look at this link and scroll back to see all of the players that got HOF votes throughout the years: 

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2013.shtml


    Such 'Greats' like:

    Aaron Sele, Shawn Green, Eric Young, Bret Boone, BJ Surhoff, Eric Karros, David Segui....etc etc.....it's a joke.  Whatever tool voted for those people needs to find new work.....

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to HailToTheKing's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  

    [/QUOTE]


    I really think he is a HOF'r NOW and I think he will get in at some point.  The guy SHOULD be mentioned as one of the best clutch BIG GAME performers of all time.  He has done things in the big games when it mattered most that some of the so called 'legends' out there could not do.  His number should be enough once he retires but I really think what will set him apart from the normal 'DH' arguement is what he did when it mattered.  To me that CLEARLY offsets the boring DH arguement. 

    With all of that said...I agree with what a lot of people have been saying about needing to clean up the HOF voting situation.  Take a look at this link and scroll back to see all of the players that got HOF votes throughout the years: 

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2013.shtml


    Such 'Greats' like:

    Aaron Sele, Shawn Green, Eric Young, Bret Boone, BJ Surhoff, Eric Karros, David Segui....etc etc.....it's a joke.  Whatever tool voted for those people needs to find new work.....

    [/QUOTE]

    King,

    Your to the point as I am. His being in the top five as an MVP candidate has much to do with his being a great clutch hitter, one of the best ever in his era.

    Hetch 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    a case can be made but his overall numbers are still short of a shoe in...the two issues that he will have to overcome is the bias towards DH being a worthy position and the stain of suspected ped use...my guess is that he doesn't stand a chance until Edgar Martinez is voted in. The man the DH of the year award is named after. Who may well be the only guy who finished his career with lifetime stats of .300 /.400 / .500 / .900 that isn't in the hall. 

    Those that are comparing him with Beltran are misguided, Beltran as an outfielder has a different set of qualifiers and will be compared to his contemporaries while playing and those that came before him...A very good player, but has never been recognized as being the best in any one season or over a decade....I would compare him with Dwight Evans deserving of consideration but below the threshold of worthy...

    Papi, Edgar and Baines all Fall into separate category...akin to the closer; a specialized position that is part of the new age game, one that has little historical comparisons. As such it's tougher to weight the actual accomplishment...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    a case can be made but his overall numbers are still short of a shoe in...the two issues that he will have to overcome is the bias towards DH being a worthy position and the stain of suspected ped use...my guess is that he doesn't stand a chance until Edgar Martinez is voted in. The man the DH of the year award is named after. Who may well be the only guy who finished his career with lifetime stats of .300 /.400 / .500 / .900 that isn't in the hall. 

    Those that are comparing him with Beltran are misguided, Beltran as an outfielder has a different set of qualifiers and will be compared to his contemporaries while playing and those that came before him...A very good player, but has never been recognized as being the best in any one season or over a decade....I would compare him with Dwight Evans deserving of consideration but below the threshold of worthy...

    Papi, Edgar and Baines all Fall into separate category...akin to the closer; a specialized position that is part of the new age game, one that has little historical comparisons. As such it's tougher to weight the actual accomplishment...

    [/QUOTE]

    I've thought for some time that Edgar Martinez should be in - and would be if he had the PR group that Papi has.  Martiez problem is that he played in Seattle which gave him limited exposure to the East Coast writers.

    As far as Martinez getting in, I see it the other way.  I think Papi will get in, which will open the door to Martinez.  If they let Papi in it'll be pretty hard to keep Martinez out. 

    Also, you bring up an excellent point with closers.  It took a long time for closers to be taken seriously enough to be considered, but it happened.  Again, I think Papi will open that door for DH's just as the first closer opened the door for the rest. 

    I don't think the PED issue is going to be a big one for Papi.  At least for writers outside of NYC.  Had he had one big year and dropped off dramatically after that, yes, but he's sustained his production he had before, during and after the whispers.  There's no proof beyond those whispers and I would hate to think that the BBWA would allow unproven rumors to be the deciding factor in Papi's entry.  I'm more concerned that there are some writers with agendas who may not vote for him and hide behind the PED issue. 

    And BTW, we have several people in the Hall now who only play one way.  They're called ...pitchers.  :-)

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    [/QUOTE]

    Should we take it from that question that you're opposed to any DH making it into the Hall?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    a case can be made but his overall numbers are still short of a shoe in...the two issues that he will have to overcome is the bias towards DH being a worthy position and the stain of suspected ped use...my guess is that he doesn't stand a chance until Edgar Martinez is voted in. The man the DH of the year award is named after. Who may well be the only guy who finished his career with lifetime stats of .300 /.400 / .500 / .900 that isn't in the hall. 

    Those that are comparing him with Beltran are misguided, Beltran as an outfielder has a different set of qualifiers and will be compared to his contemporaries while playing and those that came before him...A very good player, but has never been recognized as being the best in any one season or over a decade....I would compare him with Dwight Evans deserving of consideration but below the threshold of worthy...

    Papi, Edgar and Baines all Fall into separate category...akin to the closer; a specialized position that is part of the new age game, one that has little historical comparisons. As such it's tougher to weight the actual accomplishment...

    [/QUOTE]

    I've thought for some time that Edgar Martinez should be in - and would be if he had the PR group that Papi has.  Martiez problem is that he played in Seattle which gave him limited exposure to the East Coast writers.

    As far as Martinez getting in, I see it the other way.  I think Papi will get in, which will open the door to Martinez.  If they let Papi in it'll be pretty hard to keep Martinez out. 

    Also, you bring up an excellent point with closers.  It took a long time for closers to be taken seriously enough to be considered, but it happened.  Again, I think Papi will open that door for DH's just as the first closer opened the door for the rest. 

    I don't think the PED issue is going to be a big one for Papi.  At least for writers outside of NYC.  Had he had one big year and dropped off dramatically after that, yes, but he's sustained his production he had before, during and after the whispers.  There's no proof beyond those whispers and I would hate to think that the BBWA would allow unproven rumors to be the deciding factor in Papi's entry.  I'm more concerned that there are some writers with agendas who may not vote for him and hide behind the PED issue. 

    And BTW, we have several people in the Hall now who only play one way.  They're called ...pitchers.  :-)

     

    [/QUOTE]

    All good points and time will tell...I do think that Papi will need to finish strong and reach 500 HR...time will tell...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    a case can be made but his overall numbers are still short of a shoe in...the two issues that he will have to overcome is the bias towards DH being a worthy position and the stain of suspected ped use...my guess is that he doesn't stand a chance until Edgar Martinez is voted in. The man the DH of the year award is named after. Who may well be the only guy who finished his career with lifetime stats of .300 /.400 / .500 / .900 that isn't in the hall. 

    Those that are comparing him with Beltran are misguided, Beltran as an outfielder has a different set of qualifiers and will be compared to his contemporaries while playing and those that came before him...A very good player, but has never been recognized as being the best in any one season or over a decade....I would compare him with Dwight Evans deserving of consideration but below the threshold of worthy...

    Papi, Edgar and Baines all Fall into separate category...akin to the closer; a specialized position that is part of the new age game, one that has little historical comparisons. As such it's tougher to weight the actual accomplishment...

    [/QUOTE]

    I've thought for some time that Edgar Martinez should be in - and would be if he had the PR group that Papi has.  Martiez problem is that he played in Seattle which gave him limited exposure to the East Coast writers.

    As far as Martinez getting in, I see it the other way.  I think Papi will get in, which will open the door to Martinez.  If they let Papi in it'll be pretty hard to keep Martinez out. 

    Also, you bring up an excellent point with closers.  It took a long time for closers to be taken seriously enough to be considered, but it happened.  Again, I think Papi will open that door for DH's just as the first closer opened the door for the rest. 

    I don't think the PED issue is going to be a big one for Papi.  At least for writers outside of NYC.  Had he had one big year and dropped off dramatically after that, yes, but he's sustained his production he had before, during and after the whispers.  There's no proof beyond those whispers and I would hate to think that the BBWA would allow unproven rumors to be the deciding factor in Papi's entry.  I'm more concerned that there are some writers with agendas who may not vote for him and hide behind the PED issue. 

    And BTW, we have several people in the Hall now who only play one way.  They're called ...pitchers.  :-)

     

    [/QUOTE]

    All good points and time will tell...I do think that Papi will need to finish strong and reach 500 HR...time will tell...

    [/QUOTE]
    Yep.  I agree.  The writers are going to need something to hang their hats on and I think 500 HR's will be the litmus test for him. If he doesn't make it to 500 he won't get in BUT if he DOES get to 500 all the other things will come into play, including the phenomenal WS he had in 2013.

    As a sidelight... isn't it amazing how we have certain set-in-stone benchmarks?  500 HR is only one more than 499.  Is it possible that the HR Beltran robbed him of in the WS could keep him out of the HOF??   

    ^^...just something to think about.  :-) 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    a case can be made but his overall numbers are still short of a shoe in...the two issues that he will have to overcome is the bias towards DH being a worthy position and the stain of suspected ped use...my guess is that he doesn't stand a chance until Edgar Martinez is voted in. The man the DH of the year award is named after. Who may well be the only guy who finished his career with lifetime stats of .300 /.400 / .500 / .900 that isn't in the hall. 

    Those that are comparing him with Beltran are misguided, Beltran as an outfielder has a different set of qualifiers and will be compared to his contemporaries while playing and those that came before him...A very good player, but has never been recognized as being the best in any one season or over a decade....I would compare him with Dwight Evans deserving of consideration but below the threshold of worthy...

    Papi, Edgar and Baines all Fall into separate category...akin to the closer; a specialized position that is part of the new age game, one that has little historical comparisons. As such it's tougher to weight the actual accomplishment...

    [/QUOTE]

    I've thought for some time that Edgar Martinez should be in - and would be if he had the PR group that Papi has.  Martiez problem is that he played in Seattle which gave him limited exposure to the East Coast writers.

    As far as Martinez getting in, I see it the other way.  I think Papi will get in, which will open the door to Martinez.  If they let Papi in it'll be pretty hard to keep Martinez out. 

    Also, you bring up an excellent point with closers.  It took a long time for closers to be taken seriously enough to be considered, but it happened.  Again, I think Papi will open that door for DH's just as the first closer opened the door for the rest. 

    I don't think the PED issue is going to be a big one for Papi.  At least for writers outside of NYC.  Had he had one big year and dropped off dramatically after that, yes, but he's sustained his production he had before, during and after the whispers.  There's no proof beyond those whispers and I would hate to think that the BBWA would allow unproven rumors to be the deciding factor in Papi's entry.  I'm more concerned that there are some writers with agendas who may not vote for him and hide behind the PED issue. 

    And BTW, we have several people in the Hall now who only play one way.  They're called ...pitchers.  :-)

     

    [/QUOTE]

    All good points and time will tell...I do think that Papi will need to finish strong and reach 500 HR...time will tell...

    [/QUOTE]
    Yep.  I agree.  The writers are going to need something to hang their hats on and I think 500 HR's will be the litmus test for him. If he doesn't make it to 500 he won't get in BUT if he DOES get to 500 all the other things will come into play, including the phenomenal WS he had in 2013.

    As a sidelight... isn't it amazing how we have certain set-in-stone benchmarks?  500 HR is only one more than 499.  Is it possible that the HR Beltran robbed him of in the WS could keep him out of the HOF??   

    ^^...just something to think about.  :-) 

    [/QUOTE]

    If it were in the regular season -- maybe.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your comment is so pointless I won't bother countering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your question is so idiotic I won't bother answering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]

    I give you credit for even responding to him with this. All bill does is throw out some sort of unintelligent one-liner. Then if you try to engage him in conversation to expand on his point, he either doesn't respond or responds with some other comment that doesn't address your post. That's why I have little respect for his posts.

     

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