A Pitching Fix

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    A Pitching Fix

    I don't know about you but I have noticed that The pitchers and catchers (Salty in particular) can't seem to get on the same page as to what pitch should be thrown. I constantly see our pitchers shaking off signs.

    What do you think about calling pitches from the dugout, at least until Salty feels more comfortable.

    Another option would be to start Shoppach over Salty and see if the CERA improves. Worth a shot to get our ERA down.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    Saltalamacchia probably knows these pitchers better than the guys in the dugout.  He is currently hitting up a storm.  Last night Doubront hugged him after being taken out (after the 6th).  The Sox have just won 4 in a row, which suggests now is not the time to make a bold range change.  I think, FWIW, Shoppach catches when the opposing pitcher is a lefty.  Between them, they are doing OK even though CERA is very possibly an issue.   Also FWIW, Curt Schilling used to shake off Jason Varitek, and John Lackey probably used to shake off Mike Scioscia. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    You are assuming the Coaches would be better at calling the game.

    If you were a pitcher that had success throwing to someone like Tek, would you trust Salty or Shoppach?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]Saltalamacchia probably knows these pitchers better than the guys in the dugout.  He is currently hitting up a storm.  Last night Doubront hugged him after being taken out (after the 6th).  The Sox have just won 4 in a row, which suggests now is not the time to make a bold range change.  I think, FWIW, Shoppach catches when the opposing pitcher is a lefty.  Between them, they are doing OK even though CERA is very possibly an issue.   Also FWIW, Curt Schilling used to shake off Jason Varitek, and John Lackey probably used to shake off Mike Scioscia. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    I think Shoppach is also hitting well.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    Shoppach is hitting great, but mostly, I think, against lefties.  Saltalamacchia has put a lot of effort into learning the pitchers and into working with them--see today's Globe. 

    I am not saying CERA is irrelevant, only that this needs to play out longer than April.  FWIW, I also think Salty has problems throwing runners out, but SB's haven't really hurt the Sox--yet. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In ridiculously small sample sizes, Shoppach has actually hit righties better so far this year. I don't expect that to continue.

    vs RHPs  .417/.500/.667/1.167  (14 PAs)
    vs LHPs  .222/.417/.444/.861    (12 PAs)

    As for CERA, it is not supposed to be used on an overall numbers comparison, but rather one by one with each pitcher, but here is the team averages:

    ERA with Salty 6.88
    ERA with Shop 4.50

    Opp's OPS with Salty  .910
    Opp's OPS with Shop  .687

    Sox pitchers have about double the innings with Salty over Shopp, but the HRs allowed are 24-4. (2 to 1 innings: 6 to 1 HRs)
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]In ridiculously small sample sizes, Shoppach has actually hit righties better so far this year. I don't expect that to continue. vs RHPs  .417/.500/.667/1.167  (14 PAs) vs LHPs  .222/.417/.444/.861    (12 PAs) As for CERA, it is not supposed to be used on an overall numbers comparison, but rather one by one with each pitcher, but here is the team averages: ERA with Salty 6.88 ERA with Shop 4.50 Opp's OPS with Salty  .910 Opp's OPS with Shop  .687 Sox pitchers have about double the innings with Salty over Shopp, but the HRs allowed are 24-4. (2 to 1 innings: 6 to 1 HRs)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Then again, Salty's hit infinitely more HRs than Shoppach, so there you are.


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]I don't know about you but I have noticed that The pitchers and catchers (Salty in particular) can't seem to get on the same page as to what pitch should be thrown. I constantly see our pitchers shaking off signs. What do you think about calling pitches from the dugout, at least until Salty feels more comfortable. Another option would be to start Shoppach over Salty and see if the CERA improves. Worth a shot to get our ERA down.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    Yes!  We get it....  You want Tek back to call the game.  Move on!  I LOVE TEK, but his time has come & gone!  MOVE ON!  little bobby v. doesn't even know if he's facing a Righty or Lefty!  Do you want him calling the pitches???  I'm sure he knows exactly NOTHING about the hitters!  In fact, I'm not convinced he knows what team he's facing each night.  Pitching coach?  Who knows??? 

    Look!  Salty has actually started hitting lately.  It probably won't last!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Enjoy it while we can!  WE'RE WINNING!  Let's not mess with a bloody thing!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix : Then again, Salty's hit infinitely more HRs than Shoppach, so there you are.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    The Sox are 5-7 this year with Salty and 3-3 with Shoppach. Last year we were 47-49 with Salty and 43-23 with others.

    More HRs! 

    Whoopdidoo! 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix : The Sox are 5-7 this year with Salty and 3-3 with Shoppach. Last year we were 47-49 with Salty and 43-23 with others. More HRs!  Whoopdidoo! 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    That is a telling stat moon.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]You are assuming the Coaches would be better at calling the game. If you were a pitcher that had success throwing to someone like Tek, would you trust Salty or Shoppach?
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Varitek  is difficult to replace. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]I don't know about you but I have noticed that The pitchers and catchers (Salty in particular) can't seem to get on the same page as to what pitch should be thrown. I constantly see our pitchers shaking off signs. What do you think about calling pitches from the dugout, at least until Salty feels more comfortable. Another option would be to start Shoppach over Salty and see if the CERA improves. Worth a shot to get our ERA down.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    Why doesn't the team try letting you call pitches from this message board?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    It's not just about pitch calling and location calling. There's more to it. Setting a nice target. Framing pitches. Handling emotions. Knowing when to insist on a pitch and when to let the pitcher shake you off. Keeping hitters guessing and off-balance. Knowing the opponent's weaknesses and strengths. Not avoiding pitching inside. Building confidence and communication.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    4 - 3 under Shoppach now.

    I proposed this same idea in another thread.  I see a lot of head shaking from pitchers to Salty, too.  I would think Bobby V, of all people, has at least considered the idea.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]It's not just about pitch calling and location calling. There's more to it. Setting a nice target. Framing pitches. Handling emotions. Knowing when to insist on a pitch and when to let the pitcher shake you off. Keeping hitters guessing and off-balance. Knowing the opponent's weaknesses and strengths. Not avoiding pitching inside. Building confidence and communication.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I realize much of it is guess-work and all those things are key to pitch selection. I just don't think Salty has the experience to be trusted to call pitches, escpecislly in crucial situations. And except for Becket and Lester, the others starters don't either.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    4 - 3 under Shoppach now.

    I proposed this same idea in another thread.  I see a lot of head shaking from pitchers to Salty, too.  I would think Bobby V, of all people, has at least considered the idea.

    I think he has.

    12 games for Salty and 7 for Shopp is a higher percent of games for Shopp than most expected. I think Shopp has started against every lefty and one game vs a righty that he had a nice history against.

    Shopp is not going to continue to hit righties well, and I do not think he can or should catch 125+ games.

    Also, although Kelly seems to be a decent game-caller, he is not a great pitch blocker or CS machine with his arm.

    It will be interesting to see what Bobby V does if Salty gets on a hot streak (already has?). Will he throw the CERA book out the window and go with Salty more often? BV should forget that Salty is a switch hitter, since he rots vs LHPs. If he starts Salty vs a LHP, I'll know he has drank the Tito Kool-Aid.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    I realize much of it is guess-work and all those things are key to pitch selection. I just don't think Salty has the experience to be trusted to call pitches, escpecislly in crucial situations. And except for Becket and Lester, the others starters don't either.

    Beckett and Lester don't "trust him" either.

    That's why Beckett had his own personal "binky" last year with VTek.
    2011:
    w Salty  7.36  (.916 OPS against)
    w VTek  2.62  (.587)
    2012:
    w Salty 13.50  (1.045)
    w Shop  2.57  (.578)

    While Lester has done OK with Salty, he does much better with others:
    2011:
    w Salty  3.77  .717
    w Lava  3.00  .783
    w VTek  2.48  .577
    2012:
    w Salty  6.75  .922
    w Shop  3.38  .365

    The biggest differential has been with Bard:
    Career:
    w Salty  4.50  .618
    w VTek  1.79  .523
    w VMart 3.16  .669
    w Shop  2.57  .634
    w Kott   4.15  .527
    w Cash  0.00  .247

    When are all of you CERA naysayers going to at least admit that this freakish trend just keeps on continuing "against all the odds" year after year after year after....

    Every year, I have offered a bet giving 3:1 to 5:1 odds on CERA with individual pitchers matchups. No takers. But, many disbelievers. CERA is real and as projectable as any stat in MLB.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]I realize much of it is guess-work and all those things are key to pitch selection. I just don't think Salty has the experience to be trusted to call pitches, escpecislly in crucial situations. And except for Becket and Lester, the others starters don't either. Beckett and Lester don't "trust him" either. That's why Beckett had his own personal "binky" last year with VTek. 2011: w Salty  7.36  (.916 OPS against) w VTek  2.62  (.587) 2012: w Salty 13.50  (1.045) w Shop  2.57  (.578) While Lester has done OK with Salty, he does much better with others: 2011: w Salty  3.77  .717 w Lava  3.00  .783 w VTek  2.48  .577 2012: w Salty  6.75  .922 w Shop  3.38  .365 The biggest differential has been with Bard: Career: w Salty  4.50  .618 w VTek  1.79  .523 w VMart 3.16  .669 w Shop  2.57  .634 w Kott   4.15  .527 w Cash  0.00  .247 When are all of you CERA naysayers going to at least admit that this freakish trend just keeps on continuing "against all the odds" year after year after year after.... Every year, I have offered a bet giving 3:1 to 5:1 odds on CERA with individual pitchers matchups. No takers. But, many disbelievers. CERA is real and as projectable as any stat in MLB.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I meant that, except for Beckett and Lester, the others don't have the experience to know what to throw. They may or may not trust Salty. Probably not, cause they sure shake him off a lot.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    I meant that, except for Beckett and Lester, the others don't have the experience to know what to throw. They may or may not trust Salty. Probably not, cause they sure shake him off a lot.

    OK, I misread your meaning.

    Maybe the other pitchers don't know Salty's past history of calling bad pitches and/pr locations, so they "trust" him more, assuming he knows his stuff since he's been around longer than them.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]It's not just about pitch calling and location calling. There's more to it. Setting a nice target. Framing pitches. Handling emotions. Knowing when to insist on a pitch and when to let the pitcher shake you off. Keeping hitters guessing and off-balance. Knowing the opponent's weaknesses and strengths. Not avoiding pitching inside. Building confidence and communication.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    I watched Salty handle Doubront and Tazawa from a pitcher's perspective. That hight he did everything you cite pretty well. What are the chances that Varitek did so right from the get-go?
    Salty was also terrific that night at blocking bad pitches.
    Shoppach has begun to look ragged behind the plate.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    I watched Salty handle Doubront and Tazawa from a pitcher's perspective. That hight he did everything you cite pretty well. What are the chances that Varitek did so right from the get-go?
    Salty was also terrific that night at blocking bad pitches.
    Shoppach has begun to look ragged behind the plate.

    I have mentioned several times that Salty is the age now at which VTek first became a FT MLB catcher. I realize he can still improve, but I have seen no sign of improvement behind the plate, in terms of pitch calling, framing pitches, and blocking bad pitches.

    I was not a Shoppach-signing supporter. Yes, he will do fine vs LHPs and match up with Salty well in that area, but to me the most important part of catching is how well they handle pitchers. While I think Shoppach is better than salty, he's never been known as being great in that area. He also is not capable of catching FT for many weeks in a row, so I really didn't see a big upgrade over bringing Vtek back. 

    I hops Salty proves me wrong, but I seriously doubt he will improve that much this year, and this staff needs all the help it can get. The defense behind the staff has been well documented by you, ex, and we both know it "ain't great". Having a knowlegable catcher behind the plate is very important in my opinion, and from what I've seen since last year, Salty has a long way to go in many areas of catching.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]I watched Salty handle Doubront and Tazawa from a pitcher's perspective. That hight he did everything you cite pretty well. What are the chances that Varitek did so right from the get-go? Salty was also terrific that night at blocking bad pitches. Shoppach has begun to look ragged behind the plate. I have mentioned several times that Salty is the age now at which VTek first became a FT MLB catcher. I realize he can still improve, but I have seen no sign of improvement behind the plate, in terms of pitch calling, framing pitches, and blocking bad pitches. I was not a Shoppach-signing supporter. Yes, he will do fine vs LHPs and match up with Salty well in that area, but to me the most important part of catching is how well they handle pitchers. While I think Shoppach is better than salty, he's never been known as being great in that area. He also is not capable of catching FT for many weeks in a row, so I really didn't see a big upgrade over bringing Vtek back.  I hops Salty proves me wrong, but I seriously doubt he will improve that much this year, and this staff needs all the help it can get. The defense behind the staff has been well documented by you, ex, and we both know it "ain't great". Having a knowlegable catcher behind the plate is very important in my opinion, and from what I've seen since last year, Salty has a long way to go in many areas of catching.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    As I said, he called a heckuva game the other night, and looked great blocking pitches. Right, he has a ways to go, like most young catchers, but I've seen some improvement. If he develops, it will be a boon(e) for the Sox. At the moment, IMO, we all should be hoping for that to happen -- and then let the Lavarnway situation work itself out.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    There will always be single game sample sizes that make someone look good or bad behind the plate. Salty's overall picture has not been any better this year than April of last year. That doesn't mean he can't still improve, but I'm not sure we can rist the patience needed to find out.

    We gave up on Kotarras much quicker than Salty. Perhaps more than just Theo saw something in Salty, I missed.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    In Response to Re: A Pitching Fix:
    [QUOTE]There will always be single game sample sizes that make someone look good or bad behind the plate. Salty's overall picture has not been any better this year than April of last year. That doesn't mean he can't still improve, but I'm not sure we can rist the patience needed to find out. We gave up on Kotarras much quicker than Salty. Perhaps more than just Theo saw something in Salty, I missed.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]If I remember right Kottaras was caught in roster slot hell. The RS had VMart and Tek and Kottaras was out of options, which was how he made the roster at the start of 2009 to start with. Once the RS were committed to Tek and Victor it mad carrying Kottaras on the 25 man roster impossible.


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Pitching Fix

    Yeah, Kottaras didn't get much of a chance, especially after we got VMart. He was 26 at the time.

    I remember getting an argument with harness over a one game (actually 1 AB) sample size where the opponets rocked our pitcher while George was the catcher. I had thought the pitcher missed the target set by Kottaras. It was the beginning of my conversion to higher CERA related importance.

    George has become a pretty good hitting catcher with Milwaukee. He also hasn't compared too badly with the other Milwaukee catchers in CERA.

    (Warning: CERA is not supposed to be measured as a whole, but is a better guage if used going pitcher by pitcher in comparison.)

    2009:
    VTek   3.87  (924 innings)
    VMart 5.22  (257)
    Kott    5.36  (243)

    2010:
    Kott      4.44  (542)
    Lucroy  4.40 (655)
    Zaun     5.42 (242)

    2011:
    Kott      3.59  (253)
    Lucroy 3.63  (1044)
    Nieves 3.84  (129)

    2012:
    Kott      5.86  (43)
    Lucroy 5.14 (133)


     

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