Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Here's the guy who has done it all in every assignment he has been given. He has started, he has done long and short relief---okay all of you with long, accurate memories--he had one game, he'd love to forget, where he walked 5--other than that he has been pretty effective. 

    Bobby V can move Bard to the rotation--no loss of precious prospects. Move Ace to the closer role--no loss of prospects. You are now looking for one #4 or #5 starter.  If you insist on going after a Closer--I would definitely stay away from Madson and Cordero--they want too much money and they are focused on being closers--with our finances, according the East Coast Version of MoneyBall--LL, the Sox need to dig deeper and find the diamonds in the rough. In addition we need flexibility with our staff---this season it's going to have to be---"One for all and all for one."
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    IMO our bullpen, not withstanding our starting staff, will be a major problem in 2012. Losing Papelbon, moving Bard to starter and replacing both to date with Melancon just does not do it. I realize more moves will be made, but doubt they will be significant enough for Red Sox fans to feel better about the bullpen in 2012 than 2011.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Personally would rather see Aceves stay in the role he has on team. Just because a pitcher does well in one role doesn't mean success in another. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If RS are going to turn Bard into a SP then they MUST get a closer. If Ben is convinced Melancon can do job its his neck on the line, saw him pitch very little last year against Mets, but was impressed. But pitching for 100 loss Astro's and in Fenway Park are 2 different animals.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sully1965. Show Sully1965's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Bard will end up as the closer in the long run. Sox will acquire at least one pitcher who will slide into the 4 - 5 slot. The Sox then will soothe Bard by working out a new contract. Then you may see the Sox go after a Lidge / Zumaya type pitcher to help out in the 6 - 7 inning.
     
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    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]Bard will end up as the closer in the long run. Sox will acquire at least one pitcher who will slide into the 4 - 5 slot. The Sox then will soothe Bard by working out a new contract. Then you may see the Sox go after a Lidge / Zumaya type pitcher to help out in the 6 - 7 inning.
    Posted by Sully1965[/QUOTE]

    I hope that you are right.  I also believe that Bard is better suited for a bullpen role and would probably be a good closer.  I would also like to see Aceves remain in the bullpen, but I think he would be a better starter than Bard. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Why???

    Aceves maintain attribute to this team is as a setup/long relief/spot starter role...and they lose all of that moving him to closer...bad, bad idea.

    Also, I am of the opinion, like others here, that it is also a bad decision to move Bard to a starter...hopefully, the Sox FO is just letting him stretch out as a starter in spring training, but move to his bullpen role (closer or 8th inning guy) once the season starts.

    If the Sox end up signing someone like Cordero now, I'd have to face the fact either Bard or Aceves will be given a rotation spot...although I don't favor it.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    The Aceves as reliever crowd makes about as much sense as our fired manager who watched our starting pitching fizzle and stood his ground on Aceves pitching relief because he was too valuable coming in when the team was down four runs...beyond dumb

    relievers are failed starters.....those that can pitch consistently, start...never forget that...

    If Bard doesnt work out we can always throw him in the pen again...but to ignore starters to focus on one inning of relief is plain stupid....you ride your horse, not walk it.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    I think Aceves is giving up too much by moving to closer role.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]The Aceves as reliever crowd makes about as much sense as our fired manager who watched our starting pitching fizzle and stood his ground on Aceves pitching relief because he was too valuable coming in when the team was down four runs...beyond dumb relievers are failed starters.....those that can pitch consistently, start...never forget that... If Bard doesnt work out we can always throw him in the pen again...but to ignore starters to focus on one inning of relief is plain stupid....you ride your horse, not walk it.
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    Sorry pal but I totally disagree with you...

    ...if you got players that do a specific job very well, isn't it more stupid to move them away from those roles to "try them out" at something else, thus likely weakening the new spot, if he fails, and the one he left, since his replacement could also not do as well in that role.

    How about you leave your strengths where they are and find NEW replacements for the positions of need...that seems like a logical solution to me.

    BTW, in spite of all I just said, moving Bard from setup to Closer is more a natural progression for this type of young player, rather than rolling the dice to see if he might be a good starter again...something he happened to fail at in the minors no less.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Don't agree soxdog---I don't believe Bard has the makeup to be a closer--he has no track record for that. If we are keeping these moves in house , to save money, I would prefer Aceves, Jenks, Melancon  as possible closers and as a money saver I would prefer Bard as a set-up first and starter second.
    If we go outside for a closer I prefer we trade with either Oakland or the Pirates. 

    If Bard doesn't like either option perhaps he could compete for a starting , closer or remain as a set-up. The other option would be to trade Bard to a team that believes he would be a sensational closer or starter in retirn for a solid #1,2, or 3 starter in our rotation--someone as good if not better than Beckett.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Don't agree soxdog---I don't believe Bard has the makeup to be a closer--he has no track record for that. 

    Did Papelbon have a "track record" when he was moved to closer? Many wanted him to start. I do think Bard makes more sense as a closer than Aceves, who has some starting experience and longer relief as well, but I do think Aceves has the mental make-up to be a closer, and maybe he could give us 1 1/3 or 1 2/3 Innings some times as a closer.

    If we are keeping these moves in house , to save money, I would prefer Aceves, Jenks, Melancon  as possible closers and as a money saver I would prefer Bard as a set-up first and starter second.
    If we go outside for a closer I prefer we trade with either Oakland or the Pirates. 

    It will probably be for a low cost closer that will cost us very good prospects.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]The Aceves as reliever crowd makes about as much sense as our fired manager who watched our starting pitching fizzle and stood his ground on Aceves pitching relief because he was too valuable coming in when the team was down four runs...beyond dumb relievers are failed starters.....those that can pitch consistently, start...never forget that... If Bard doesnt work out we can always throw him in the pen again...but to ignore starters to focus on one inning of relief is plain stupid....you ride your horse, not walk it.
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]
    As the ship was sinking last year , every suggestion to move Aceves into the rotation was met by the same crowd saying that he was " more valuable " in the pen. Meanwhile , the Sox fell behind early in game after game.  Nothing , but nothing , trumps starting pitching.  Aceves wants to start. Give him the chance.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    The Aceves as reliever crowd makes about as much sense as our fired manager who watched our starting pitching fizzle and stood his ground on Aceves pitching relief because he was too valuable coming in when the team was down four runs...beyond dumb

    relievers are failed starters.....those that can pitch consistently, start...never forget that..

    Sorry dude, but you're babbling again.

    In paragraph 2, you state that relievers are failed starters, which is largely true.

    In paragraph 1, you argue that it was a mistake not to turn a reliever back into a starter.

    You can't have it both ways.  If you argue that a relieer is a failed starter, then you're arguing with yourself that Aceves should be a starter.  If you're arguing that Aceves would've made a better starter than a reliever, then you are arguing with yourself a reliever is a failed starter.  One of the two Geos has to make up his mind.

    IRT Aceves, here are his splits

    Starter     1-1   5.14 ERA    1.571 Whip
    Reliever    9-1   2.03 ERA    1.000 Whip

    Which one do you prefer and why?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    As much as I love Bard in the bullpen and think he can close.  The reality is he is 100 times more valuable as a starting pitcher.  The question is will the transition to the rotation be Joba Chamberlin like or C.J. Wilson like???

    Aceves deserves a bigger role on this team no matter what it be.  I think he could close, I think he could start as well.  The stats say he is less successful as a starter, but that is also a very small sample size......regardless I would be happy if the sox gave him a chance to start or set up/ close. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    IRT Aceves, I'd be okay with Aceves as a closer.  He's got more Paps attitude than anyone else.  Starting is more about consistency, like a marathoner.  Closing is more about animal instinct.  Aceves is a great competitor.  I'd be more concerned about just adding another high quality arm, whether as a setup or closer.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    JoeB--I agree--Aceves has the most options on the staff. 

    Can you imagine a closer that can pitch like he's a starter/ long relief--for three innings. Ex. he blows a save( unlikely) and stays in the game pitching with his great repertoire with good stuff until the team comes back for the win. Unheard of in this day.

    With Melancon and Jenks on the staff you can give him a day or two off so someone else can close.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Both Bard and Aceves have indicated that they WANT to start and you can't blame them as that's where the money is. As of right now, they'll both be stretched out this spring and given every opportunity to earn a spot in the rotation. If the results aren't good, one or both will be in the bullpen...I think it's really that simple and fair for everyone involved...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]Don't agree soxdog---I don't believe Bard has the makeup to be a closer--he has no track record for that.  Did Papelbon have a "track record" when he was moved to closer? Many wanted him to start. I do think Bard makes more sense as a closer than Aceves, who has some starting experience and longer relief as well, but I do think Aceves has the mental make-up to be a closer, and maybe he could give us 1 1/3 or 1 2/3 Innings some times as a closer. If we are keeping these moves in house , to save money, I would prefer Aceves, Jenks, Melancon  as possible closers and as a money saver I would prefer Bard as a set-up first and starter second. If we go outside for a closer I prefer we trade with either Oakland or the Pirates.  It will probably be for a low cost closer that will cost us very good prospects.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, most closers don't have track records when they take the job, including Papelbon.

    The fact that Bard only has a couple of pitches that he is proficient with means that his role in the bullpen is really an appropriate place for him. He has already failed as a starter once!

    He throws close to 100 and his fastball is his bread and butter...having one other pitch he excels with means he fits the mold of most closers.

    Also, the fact that you want to use Aceves as a closer so he can pitch extra innings if he fails to close out the game is not sound logic to me...I prefer to have a closer that can give it all he's got for one inning and then move on to someone else. If they stretch Bard out as a starter in Spring Training then he could possibly go mulitple innings if necessary as well. But then you lose him for the next game...not sure I like that trade off.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    im not exactly sure what you are confused about joey - Aceves was wasted last year in the bullpen cleaning up everypne else's mess and that didnt win us games....he is too good to be used for that purpose

    therefore...

    start him....there is no guarantee that he will be as dominant in an extended pitching role but given the importance of starting pitching, it is the wise thing to do...

    hiding behind sample ERA's is not coaching...either you think he has the stuff or doesnt...i say he does....

    sometimes you stat geeks try to make yourselves look smarter by talking in circles....what part of that original post was confusing to you?

    so just a quick tutorial...
    Aceves the starter  /> Aceves the middle reliever
    Boston Red Sox win more games with better starts /> great middle relief
    Therefore
    Aceves starting = a better team in 2012
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In response to "Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer?????????? : moon, most closers don't have track records when they take the job, including Papelbon. The fact that Bard only has a couple of pitches that he is proficient with means that his role in the bullpen is really an appropriate place ifor him. He has already failed as a starter once! He throws close to 100 and his fastball is his bread and butter...having one other pitch he excels with means he fits the mold of most closers. Also, the fact that you want to use Aceves as a closer so he can pitch extra innings if he fails to close out the game is not sound logic to me...I prefer to have a closer that can give it all he's got for one inning and then move on to someone else. If they stretch Bard out as a starter in Spring Training then he could possibly go mulitple innings if necessary as well. But then you lose him for the next game...not sure I like that trade off. Posted by Soxdog67[/QUOTE] Bard won't be given a spot in the rotation, if he can only throw 2 pitches for strikes. He's working on a few pitches including a change that has shown improvement. He won't be throwing 99 as a starter, so he'll need at least 3 pitches. Hes pitched well enough for this team to give him the opportunity to start. If the experiment fails, they get one of best arms in the game back in the bullpen...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    im not exactly sure what you are confused about joey - Aceves was wasted last year in the bullpen cleaning up everypne else's mess and that didnt win us games....he is too good to be used for that purpose

    1-He was 9-1 coming out of the BP.  How was that wasted?  How could you conceivably come to the conclusion that the 9 wins didn't win us any games?  He was 1-1 as a starter.

    2-What stats do you have to support him starting?

    3-If he can start, why can't Bard, or most other setup guys?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Here's how I think you solve your position and your pitching problems:

    1. Keep your pen in place--keep Bard and Aceves in the pen--let Ace,Bard, Jenks and Melancon fight it out for closer.

    2. As was shared on another thread---Trade CC to the Angels for Vernon Wells, Trumbo and  Santana.

    3. With the money left from the trade sign Oswalt--

    4. Hire all coaches and get the comp for Theo--Truck Day, Pitchers and catchers, Full Squad ST fully underway.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    Let Aceves try whatever he wants, I think he's earned that. Although, I would love him as closer since he seemed to be doing that anyway in a sense. He also appears to have the mindset of a closer, at least more than Bard.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]Here's how I think you solve your position and your pitching problems: 1. Keep your pen in place--keep Bard and Aceves in the pen--let Ace,Bard, Jenks and Melancon fight it out for closer. 2. As was shared on another thread---Trade CC to the Angels for Vernon Wells, Trumbo and  Santana. 3. With the money left from the trade sign Oswalt-- 4. Hire all coaches and get the comp for Theo--Truck Day, Pitchers and catchers, Full Squad ST fully underway.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    Kim I agree--AA has the mindset, more so than Daniel to be a closer.
    The starters may work out without a blockbuster trade--
    Gavin Floyd for Salty, Reddick and an A prospect.
    Edwin Jackson as a FA signing for two or three years.

    I still think the Marlins and Phillies are going to be looking for an experienced arm--that arm may be  Beckett--with the Nats loading up with pitching, the Braves are stocked--all four teams may be one arm away and may just need someone that has been there before.

    The NL East is going to be so competitive--the WC may not come from there.
    Every team will  have to be on top of their game every day.




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????

    In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer??????????:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Alfredo "Ace" Aceves 2012 closer?????????? : Kim I agree--AA has the mindset, more so than Daniel to be a closer. The starters may work out without a blockbuster trade-- Gavin Floyd for Salty, Reddick and an A prospect. Edwin Jackson as a FA signing for two or three years. I still think the Marlins and Phillies are going to be looking for an experienced arm--that arm may be  Beckett--with the Nats loading up with pitching, the Braves are stocked--all four teams may be one arm away and may just need someone that has been there before. The NL East is going to be so competitive--the WC may not come from there. Every team will  have to be on top of their game every day.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    No way we get rid of Beckett. That would be awful. We need starting pitching, and he was our Ace, and did very well last season up until the end. He may be the next guy with a "Doubt me" T-shirt in spring training. As I've said, nothing more powerful than a guy with something to prove. Why give him to someone else?
     

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