Batting Order vs. LHP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Batting Order vs. LHP

    I'm of the opinion that the Red Sox should take measures to get an extra RH bat in the line-up vs. some, not all LH starting pitching.  Early in the season if CC is out than I think it is easy to get 6 RH bats in the line-up but as the season progresses I'm in favor of Valentine rotating some days off, especially for CC, to get a combo of Aviles/Punto and Ross in the line-up vs. LHP.  I favor Aviles, I like his bat and hope they find a way to get him in the line-up a few times a week.

    I included sitting Agone, but that is just for the randem day off.  I didn't inlcude the same for Ells but I might imagine that would have Pedey and CC at 1-2.

    Salty was bad vs. LHP last year, under .200, so my hope is Lavarnway (or Shoppach I suppose) can become an impact bat vs. LHP.

    Regarding Papi-  I know Papi #'s against LHP were in some ways better than vs. RHP last year but he also tailed off mightily at the end of the season.  Giving him some days off might be wise and I personally like the "sitting" papi line-up, both offensively and defensively, which is probably why I didn't mind the thought of letting Papi walk to add more pitching. 

    Sitting Papi                                  Sitting Crawford

    1. Ells                                      1. Ells              
    2. Pedey                                  2. Pedey 
    3. Agone                                  3. Agone
    4. Youk (DH)                            4. Youk (3b)
    5. Crawford                             5. Papi
    6. Aviles/Punto (3B)                 6. Aviles (LF)
    7. Ross (RF)                             7.  Ross (RF)
    8. Lavarnway                        8. Lavarnway
    9.  Iggy/Punto                         9. Iggy/Punto

    Sitting Agone

    1.  Ells
    2. Pedey
    3. Papi
    4. Youk
    5. Crawford
    6. Aviles
    7. Ross
    8. Lavarnway
    9. Iggy/Punto

    Flip flop Aviles and Ross if you like, or Lavarnway too depending on how he performs, I just put them in that order consistently to make it easier. I also could see the logic in hitting one of them 5th, with CC 6th.

    "Everyday" lineup

    1. Ells
    2. Pedey
    3. Agone
    4. Youk
    5. Papi
    6. CC/RF (Ross/Sweeney)
    7. CC/RF
    8. Catcher
    9. SS

    Thoughts?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    I have no comments as long as Carl Crawford, the man with a 289 ON BASE AVERAGE - is batting 5th or 6th.....He's a #7 hitter at best vs RIGHTIES and should be riding pine vs Lefties........yet you have him batting 5th vs Lefties - whilst David Ortiz OR Adrian Gonzalez ride pine??  I am truly at a loss for words here...... 
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]I have no comments as long as Carl Crawford, the man with a 289 ON BASE AVERAGE - is batting 5th or 6th.....He's a #7 hitter at best vs RIGHTIES and should be riding pine vs Lefties........yet you have him batting 5th vs Lefties - whilst David Ortiz OR Adrian Gonzalez ride pine??  I am truly at a loss for words here...... 
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Well, I did state that the "sitting Agone" line-up was only for "randem" times when Agone gets a day off but your point is taken and valid, if Agone or Papi is having a day off, CC should be 6th or 7th vs. LHP with RH bats in the 5 and possibly 6th slot. 

    I guess I'm sort of a prisoner of the contract regarding CC, meaning I can't stand the idea that the everyday 7th hitter is making 20 million dollars a year but I do agree, that with the current line-up he is a 6th or 7th hitter.  This is why I never liked the CC signing, because he did not "fit" this line-up.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    The easiest solution is often best.

    In this situation, the easiest solution is to bat Crawford 9th vs Righties and vs Lefties you can slide in your platoon RH Hitter - Aviles/MacDonald/Ross etc.........this allows the remaining 8 slots to stay consistent.....Gonzalez and Ortiz do not need days off unless they are trying to recover fully from an injury.
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    CC it's hard to justify CC batting even 9th vs LHPs...5th is a joke.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]The easiest solution is often best. In this situation, the easiest solution is to bat Crawford 9th vs Righties and vs Lefties you can slide in your platoon RH Hitter - Aviles/MacDonald/Ross etc.........this allows the remaining 8 slots to stay consistent.....Gonzalez and Ortiz do not need days off unless they are trying to recover fully from an injury.
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I am a fan of Occams Razor but I just don't think organizationally you can slot a guy who is owed 20 million for the next 6 years in the 9 hole.  Maybe the 6, and then just work around it as you suggest.

    I would somewhat disagree on Agone and Papi "not needing days off".  They both collapsed in September last year, I'm not saying they need a day off a week but I think keeping them both around 148-150 games isn't a bad idea.  Which adds up to 25 games, which isn't an insignificant amount.
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]CC it's hard to justify CC batting even 9th vs LHPs...5th is a joke.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Maybe true but the Red Sox are not going to sit a 20 million dollar guy against all LHP and are likely not going to put him 9th, so the discussion then becomes where does he realistically fit in.

    He is a career .278 hitter vs. LH starting pitching, which includes his dreadful year last year so before coming to Boston he must have been over .280.
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    I am still trying to get my head around that $ dictates where guys play.  Do Managers have paycheck stubs in front of them when the fill out the line up cards?

    And Ortiz will get plenty of time off during the NL Away games......Fielder plays every day, why can't Adrian?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : Maybe true but the Red Sox are not going to sit a 20 million dollar guy against all LHP and are likely not going to put him 9th, so the discussion then becomes where does he realistically fit in. He is a career .278 hitter vs. LH starting pitching, which includes his dreadful year last year so before coming to Boston he must have been over .280.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    No, they won't sit him, except when he needs rest, and they should time it so it is vs LHPs he most struggles with.

    They can and should bat him 9th, and I think Bobby V has the "you know whats" to do it.

    Last year he batted 8th 112 times, and 7th 141 times, so over half his PAs were batting 7th or 8th. He batted 6th the most at 186 times. I don't see anything he has done to justify "promoting" him to 5th.

    Vs. RHPs is another story. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]I am still trying to get my head around that $ dictates where guys play.  Do Managers have paycheck stubs in front of them when the fill out the line up cards? And Ortiz will get plenty of time off during the NL Away games......Fielder plays every day, why can't Adrian?
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    $ dictates where guys play because the Red Sox have made a 142 million dollar investment in CC and they can not get value on that investment if he is sitting on the bench vs. LHP pitching or hiding out in the bottom of the line-up.  It may not be a logical reason, from a baseball perspective, but it is reality.

    Adrian can play everday but it is not hard to look at his stats and see that for his career July and August are not good months for him, so I thought maybe a few days off here and there would be worth a thought.
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : $ dictates where guys play because the Red Sox have made a 142 million dollar investment in CC and they can not get value on that investment if he is sitting on the bench vs. LHP pitching or hiding out in the bottom of the line-up.  It may not be a logical reason, from a baseball perspective, but it is reality. Adrian can play everday but it is not hard to look at his stats and see that for his career July and August are not good months for him, so I thought maybe a few days off here and there would be worth a thought.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Forget getting a positive ROI on that contract.  Never gonna happen.  It's all about damage control now.  I'll settle for a non-negative ROI.  Which means limiting Crawford's exposure.  Which means he bats 9th.  Seriously, how can you get your money back by having a BLACK HOLE in the 6th slot?  Think about it.  And look up the definition of  SUNK COST and Theo wrote the book on that my friend......
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : Forget getting a positive ROI on that contract.  Never gonna happen.  It's all about damage control now.  I'll settle for a non-negative ROI.  Which means limiting Crawford's exposure.  Which means he bats 9th.  Seriously, how can you get your money back by having a BLACK HOLE in the 6th slot?  Think about it.  And look up the definition of  SUNK COST and Theo wrote the book on that my friend......
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I'm no Theo supporter, not even close.  CC still has 6 years left and is only 1 year removed from a very, very good season, granted he racked up about 90% of his stolen bases vs. inept Red Sox catchers......  So, I'm of the belief that at least for the next 2 years, you have to seek the ROI you speak of, it is not like CC is blocking some OF stud wasting away in the minors.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : No, they won't sit him, except when he needs rest, and they should time it so it is vs LHPs he most struggles with. They can and should bat him 9th, and I think Bobby V has the "you know whats" to do it. Last year he batted 8th 112 times, and 7th 141 times, so over half his PAs were batting 7th or 8th. He batted 6th the most at 186 times. I don't see anything he has done to justify "promoting" him to 5th. Vs. RHPs is another story. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]


    and yet it amazes me when people want to promote him - based on no evidence what so ever - to lead off or 2nd or 3rd......

    Crawford is an unmitigated dissaster.  Until he turns it around that's all he will be.  The burden of proof is on HIM.  To date, there has been not a single shred of evidence submitted to turn that decision around.

    Based on last year, Crawford should not only be batting 9th and sitting vs Lefties but he should actually be a DH based on his dreadful fielding.  At least when I watch The Bad News Bears I know that Timmy Lupus is going to make that catch.  When I watch our last game of the season Carl "Sunk Cost" Crawford absolutely butchers that play.......

    142 Milllion Dollars for a PLATOON Designated Hitter......And we can't even get a minor leaguer in return for Theo walking out on his contract.  It's a low point in recent Red Sox history that's for sure.....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : I'm no Theo supporter, not even close.  CC still has 6 years left and is only 1 year removed from a very, very good season, granted he racked up about 90% of his stolen bases vs. inept Red Sox catchers......  So, I'm of the belief that at least for the next 2 years, you have to seek the ROI you speak of, it is not like CC is blocking some OF stud wasting away in the minors.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    So the solution is to put this black hole up in the order to get value out of him?  How is having a 2-8-9 ON BASE Average going to get you your money back?  

    He saw a much different pitch selection in Tampa as he does in the Red Sox line up.  And he's being exposed.  Big time.  Plus, he's been beaten up so badly mentally I just can't see him bouncing back for at least a year and even then he will be what he is - an average platoon player whose best asset is his speed.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : So the solution is to put this black hole up in the order to get value out of him?  How is having a 2-8-9 ON BASE Average going to get you your money back?   He saw a much different pitch selection in Tampa as he does in the Red Sox line up.  And he's being exposed.  Big time.  Plus, he's been beaten up so badly mentally I just can't see him bouncing back for at least a year and even then he will be what he is - an average platoon player whose best asset is his speed.
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Which is why I made the point of stating in my OP that CC was never a "good fit" for this line-up.  He was always going to be slotted in the 5th or 6th spot, behind guys like Agone, Papi, and Youk which largely negates his best asset, his speed.

    But again, back to reality, we have him for the next 6 years and he is going to play and IF Iggy is the SS, CC is not going to bat 9th, even against LHP, so instead of just accepting 120 million in sunk cost I think the discussion should turn to how do they maximize his impact and value because he is going to play.  6th against against RHP and 7th or 8th against LHP?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BVTsoxfan. Show BVTsoxfan's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]New lineup idea: 1. Ellsbury 2. Pedroia        Segment 1 3. Gonzalez      4. Youkilis 5. Crawford 6. Aviles          Segment 2 7. Ortiz 8. Lavarnway 9. Sweeney/Ross 2 sections of the lineup that go from speed to power.
    Posted by mattc355[/QUOTE]

    Is Gonzo in the "speed" section?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    So he's not a good "fit" for the line up but you throw him in the middle of it?

    You realize that batting 5th is usually reserved for a power hitter, right?  That's a guy who has at least one time in his career hit more than 20 Homers.......

    You are taking the worst offensive player on the roster and trying to maximize output by giving him a promotion?  I just can't fathom that making good business sense by any stretch of the imagination.

    And that is what a SUNK COST is - accepting the fact that it is money that is gone and you must make decisions NOT based on that lost money.  Otherwise you just throw good money after bad....

    I think you need to re-assess your position. 
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : No.  Ells is the speed in the first segment.  And then it transitions to power.  Gonzo/Youk. Crawford is the speed in the second segment.  Transitions to the power.  Ortiz/Lava. This works well for the lineup without Ortiz.  Like the OP said.  Move Aviles to third.  Put Iggy or Punto at short.  Make Youk the DH.
    Posted by mattc355[/QUOTE]

    Hmmmm....Did Bud Selig mess with the game again?  Are players allowed to steal first base?  Even still, what was he last year - 18 for 25?  Even that doesn't scream fear into anyone anymore.  Too bad he doesn't have Tek to steal off of anymore either.........

    The solution is you TAKE PRESSURE OFF OF HIM but you continue to give him AB's.........That means batting him 8th or 9th and allowing him to slowly, over a long period of time, rebuild confidence and improve his #'s........

    But what some people want to do is thrust him into the Spot Light immediately after he played like a guy who had absolutely no business playing full time in the major leagues........
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    OK now that all of you that base every comment on CC on last year.However when you speak of others you will say "He will recover from last year."

    Just remember CC hit somewhere between 250 to 275 vs LHP the previous 5 years
    OBP was around 325 and Slg was around 380. So as for hitting against LHP he is not so bad.
    Then his overall numbers career wise are better than both Ross and Sweeny even with last included.
    So to all who hate on CC just because of the contract try looking at it more objectively with actual stats for more than one year and take the contract bias out as well.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    How about his career OBP of .333 whilst people want him batting 1-2-3?

    Or his career average of 14 HR's per season whilst still others suggest he bat 5th or 6th?

    Had he lived up to expectations last year, he would still be only a #6 hitter vs Righties and a #9 hitter vs Lefties.  And that's best case scenario.  We now find ourselves in a worst-case scenario......
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]So he's not a good "fit" for the line up but you throw him in the middle of it? You realize that batting 5th is usually reserved for a power hitter, right?  That's a guy who has at least one time in his career hit more than 20 Homers....... You are taking the worst offensive player on the roster and trying to maximize output by giving him a promotion?  I just can't fathom that making good business sense by any stretch of the imagination. And that is what a SUNK COST is - accepting the fact that it is money that is gone and you must make decisions NOT based on that lost money.  Otherwise you just throw good money after bad.... I think you need to re-assess your position. 
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Well in my defense I have CC 6 or 7 in the "everyday line-up" and agreed with you in my second post that hitting CC 5 vs. any LHP is not smart.  You however are cleary more interested in harping on your cause than reading and responding to my comments or facing the reality that CC is going to be in lineup nearly everyday as long as he is healthy.

    "good money after bad".... The money is spent and the payroll space is occupied, it is not "lost money" yet because he is still owed 120 million, hence my attempt to discuss to best way to move forward, despite a contract we agree was bad in it's inception and through the 1st year. 

    Maybe you want the Red Sox to eat 60 million and find a trade partner that will pay CC 10 million a year for the next 6 years?  At least that would be constructive, as opposed to resigning yourself to a six year "black hole" "sunk cost", which is the position of a passive victim.
     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP : No, they won't sit him, except when he needs rest, and they should time it so it is vs LHPs he most struggles with. They can and should bat him 9th, and I think Bobby V has the "you know whats" to do it. Last year he batted 8th 112 times, and 7th 141 times, so over half his PAs were batting 7th or 8th. He batted 6th the most at 186 times. I don't see anything he has done to justify "promoting" him to 5th. Vs. RHPs is another story. 
    Posted by moonslav59



    and yet it amazes me when people want to promote him - based on no evidence what so ever - to lead off or 2nd or 3rd......

    Crawford is an unmitigated dissaster.  Until he turns it around that's all he will be.  The burden of proof is on HIM.  To date, there has been not a single shred of evidence submitted to turn that decision around.

    Based on last year, Crawford should not only be batting 9th and sitting vs Lefties but he should actually be a DH based on his dreadful fielding.  At least when I watch The Bad News Bears I know that Timmy Lupus is going to make that catch.  When I watch our last game of the season Carl "Sunk Cost" Crawford absolutely butchers that play.......

    142 Milllion Dollars for a PLATOON Designated Hitter......And we can't even get a minor leaguer in return for Theo walking out on his contract.  It's a low point in recent Red Sox history that's for sure.....

    You know how much grief I took for labelling him "nothing but a glorified platoon player" before 2011 even began?

    I will say this, if he returns to close to his career norms, he should bat much higher vs RHPs. Here's his career & recent numbers:
    Career: .306/.343/.468/.812
    2009:     .322/.382/.487/.868
    2010:     .332/.379/.552/.930
    2011:     .284/.309/.447/.757
    I'd guess he'll be over .800 or .850 vs RHPs this year.... that will be better than Youk.

    I could see this vs RHPs:
    1) Ellsb
    2) Pedey
    3) AGon
    4) Papi
    5) CC or Youk
    6) Youk or CC
    7) Sweeney
    8) Salty
    9) Aviles

    Maybe even this would be best if CC shows a rebound and Ells keeps showing power: (Only vs RHPs)
    1) CC
    2) Pedey
    3) Ells
    4) AGon
    5) Papi
    6) Youk


     
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    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    In Response to Re: Batting Order vs. LHP:
    [QUOTE]OK now that all of you that base every comment on CC on last year.However when you speak of others you will say "He will recover from last year." Just remember CC hit somewhere between 250 to 275 vs LHP the previous 5 years OBP was around 325 and Slg was around 380. So as for hitting against LHP he is not so bad. Then his overall numbers career wise are better than both Ross and Sweeny even with last included. So to all who hate on CC just because of the contract try looking at it more objectively with actual stats for more than one year and take the contract bias out as well.
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    I both agree and disagree with this post.

    I disagree with the idea of "taking contract bias out of it".  That is impossible.  If he didn't have a huge contract the team would have more options, trade, release, bench, etc.... but because of what he is owed the Red Sox are stuck playing him regardless of production.  Also to that point, baseball is a business where pay is supposed to be reflective of production.  So when the Red Sox tie up 1/9 of their team payroll in 1 guy, if that guy doesn't produce it has significant ramifications.

    I agree with the notion that we as a fanbase shouldn't solely judge CC on what we saw last year.  As fans we saw for years what kind of opponent CC was and there is still reason to hope the Red Sox could get a few years of that level of play.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    The other point is if Aviles starts at SS vs LHP, and Ross starts in RF, who do you bat for Crawford?  Are we any better off with Darnell McDonald in the lineup, given the speed and defense differential?  Say what you want about Crawford defensively - McDonald is far worse.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Batting Order vs. LHP

    OK now that all of you that base every comment on CC on last year.However when you speak of others you will say "He will recover from last year."

    Just remember CC hit somewhere between 250 to 275 vs LHP the previous 5 years 
    OBP was around 325 and Slg was around 380. So as for hitting against LHP he is not so bad. 
    Then his overall numbers career wise are better than both Ross and Sweeny even with last included.

    His numbers vs LHPs are not good enough to be promoted in the Sox line-up, and more importantly, nobody else deserves to be demoted to benefit CC.

    His career numbers vs LHPs per 650 PAs:

         .262   8   76  (22 SB/ 9 CS)  
         OBP: .308/ SLG:  .375/  OPS:  .684
    Even his speed is neutralized vs LHPs due to his low OBP and the fact that it's harder to steal on lefties.

    He hasn't gotten any better vs LHPs the last 4 years.

    2008: .248/.293/.348/.641 
    2009: .269/.325/.378/.704
    2010: .256/.312/.384/.696
    2011: .195/.249/.317/.566
    4 yrs: .244/.297/.359/.657 (All worse than career numbers)

    I see no reason to think at age 30-31, CC will all of a sudden get the hang of hitting lefties. If you look at the career and recent splits vs LHPs by Cody Ross, Aviles, Shoppach, DMac, and others, a strong argument could easily be made that he should ride the bench vs most LHPs.  

    OPS from 2077-2011 vs LHPs:
    .595 Sweeney
    .604 Salty
    .618 Punto
    .696 Crawford
    .782 Ellsbury
    .783 Ortiz
    .789 AGon
    .814 Aviles
    .824 DMac *
    .871 Pedey
    .904 Shopp
    .916 Ross
    .990 Youk

    (*Sidenote: maybe we shouldn't be so quick to cut DMac loose with all our issues vs LHPs.)

    FYI vs the RHPs...
    .984 Ortiz
    .971 AGon
    .885 Youk
    .836 Pedey
    .831 Crawford
    .816 Ellsbury
    .772 Salty
    .762 Sweeney
    .745 Ross
    .703 Aviles
    .668 Shoppach
    .653 Punto
    .625 DMac
     

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