Ben do we really need Papi to return?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I am quoting BurritoT:
    "Ortiz has hit 30+ (32) homers only once in the last four seasons. He has not had a .400 obp in five seasons. 

    2011 was a very good year for the declining DH, and it will only go down from here."

    My feeling is Papi was a part of the Sept. Collapse. We are now in a position to look at his contract and determine if, after ample time for teams to check things out on Papi--he hasn't gotten an offer that's acceptable should we make him an offer that is in line with other DH's or should we allow the process to continue?

    By waiting are we losing ground--I don't think so...
    If Ben can find a candidate or two that can also be position players perhaps we should move on.
    I do like the idea of Youk and Kubel or Sizemore sharing that position. Or as was alluded to at another site perhaps Youk could be traded and you could use Lavarnway as the RH DH bat then pick up a LH Bat to complement him.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Sox will probably get a shot at signing Papi to a lesser contract since his true value is only in Boston where the Sox are willing to let a non-fielding player hold the DH role.  Other teams will have to decide on whether they can give up that fielding position to have a productive DH - most teams can't and only an AL team can sign him.  I would honestly like to see the Sox let him walk and use the DH similar to how the Yanks do - rest players from the field but still keep their bat in the lineup.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I, too, think it would be better to let him walk.  There are much cheaper options that will be nearly as productive.  The two draft picks cannot be dismissed from the calculation either.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]Sox will probably get a shot at signing Papi to a lesser contract since his true value is only in Boston where the Sox are willing to let a non-fielding player hold the DH role.  Other teams will have to decide on whether they can give up that fielding position to have a productive DH - most teams can't and only an AL team can sign him.  I would honestly like to see the Sox let him walk and use the DH similar to how the Yanks do - rest players from the field but still keep their bat in the lineup.
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]

    You make some decent points, especially that Papi is one-dimensional (though he could play 1B if pressed to do so and be fine).
    I think what a lot of people are overlooking is that, while Pedey is the Heart of this team, I contend that Papi is the Soul.
    The RS just will not be the same without him.
    Too many on this board are so wrapped up in sabermetrics, they forget about all the intangibles that reap rewards from the human element of these guys.
    Ortiz should stay and retire as a Red Sox.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]I am quoting BurritoT: "Ortiz has hit 30+ (32) homers only once in the last four seasons. He has not had a .400 obp in five seasons.  2011 was a very good year for the declining DH, and it will only go down from here." My feeling is Papi was a part of the Sept. Collapse. We are now in a position to look at his contract and determine if, after ample time for teams to check things out on Papi--he hasn't gotten an offer that's acceptable should we make him an offer that is in line with other DH's or should we allow the process to continue? By waiting are we losing ground--I don't think so... If Ben can find a candidate or two that can also be position players perhaps we should move on. I do like the idea of Youk and Kubel or Sizemore sharing that position. Or as was alluded to at another site perhaps Youk could be traded and you could use Lavarnway as the RH DH bat then pick up a LH Bat to complement him.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    Of all players why Sizemore. His numbers in the past three seasons have declined to the point of being patheic, he's injured often, etc. If folks around here are so ready to ship out Drew just wait and see what happens if Sizemore is signed. I'd rarher keep a solid bat in the lineup in Papi than sign an over the hill player who can''t hit his way out of a paper bag.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Ben do we really need Papi to return? : Of all players why Sizemore. His numbers in the past three seasons have declined to the point of being patheic, he's injured often, etc. If folks around here are so ready to ship out Drew just wait and see what happens if Sizemore is signed. I'd rarher keep a solid bat in the lineup in Papi than sign an over the hill player who can''t hit his way out of a paper bag.
    Posted by Hetchinspete[/QUOTE]

    29 is hardly over-the-hill. Sizemore can hit, and is a good glove man. Helth is the issue.
    According to MLBTR he is looking for a 1 year deal to prove himself, and he could be had on the cheap with that.
    It's worth serious consideration.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Ben ?  He has little say in things.     Lucchino is behind the wheel.     Get ready for him to do something stupid and cave in to the demands of Ortiz before he starts to whine, moan, and groan.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    will someone in this organization show this guy the door, please?

    and take Tek, Wake, and Josh with you.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I like your sources Ring Bearer.  We need to be done with the 3x2 ring bearers... time to move on. Ortiz will be putting up Trot Nixon numbers in 2012 for twice the dough, and limiting our options as a team.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-Bay-Fan. Show J-Bay-Fan's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I WANT RYAN LAVARNWAY IN DH ... YOUNGER AND STRONG .. AND SAVE MONEY TO GET A BIG STARTING PITCHER VIA TRADE
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Sure! Let's just let this .300 hitting, 30 homer guy who's possibly the most beloved DH in history walk. Those guys are easily replaceable....right? Look, between the facts that our clubhouse is in disarray and we have many holes needing to be filled on the team, letting David walk is exactly the wrong thing to do at this time. He should be offered a heavily incentive laden $10 million x 2yr deal and wrapped up FAST. This guy has always been a great clubhouse guy, has a winning attitude,etc. It makes me want to scream when I hear people point to last seasons brief little rant when he correctly challenged Terry to make some changes. It was precisely because he wanted to win, while Terry was partially paralyzed battling personal demons of several types, that he felt the need to speak up. Regardless of whether you agreed or not and looking at the mans whole body of work, one easily would conclude he's a positive influence  in the clubhouse. Sign him!!!! And then let's get that RF, 2+ relievers, and a closer. We simply can't afford to lose that relatively cheap but potent bat from our line-up.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    He did not hit 30 homers in 2011, and has only hit 30+ once in 4 years.... please tell us what is so FREAKING great about that? Stop FREAKING acting like Ortiz is the 35/115 guy of days long GONE.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Although I am OK with either signing him or letting him go (I would probably rather let him go but if the price is right why not?) I would like to get the correct stats out there. He is not a .300 AVG 30 HR 100 RBI .400 OBP guy. His average stats for the last four years are  .270 AVG 28 HR 96.5 RBI .367 OBP. The stats are not that far off so its not bad but i would like for us to start using the correct stats
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    OH NO..... TEAKUS would have you believe the world is coming to an end.... while 80% of the rest of MLB only dreams about having Pedey, Elles, Crawford, Youk, and AGON... we are to believe we are totally screwed without Mr. Wonderful Ortiz.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]Ben ?  He has little say in things.     Lucchino is behind the wheel.     Get ready for him to do something stupid and cave in to the demands of Ortiz before he starts to whine, moan, and groan.
    Posted by OnDeckCircle[/QUOTE]  I THINK THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT LUCCIANO's......  I THINK IT'S TIME TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO PAPI !!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I really think they will bring him back and on his terms.... this team has its head up its azz imo.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Ummm....Ok so it was 29 homers, not 30. I also didn't say he hit .309, which of course he did, I roughed it to .300. I simply assumed most folks claiming to be knowledgeable baseball fans would accept a 3 yr. homerun  average of 29.66666666666667 (his EXACT average the past 3 yrs) to be 30 per year. I'll be more careful next time. And he did this while making $12.5 million per yr., a veritable bargain. Ortiz is a VERY valuable player on our team folks. It becomes even more clear that this is true when you try to imagine replacing him.




    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]He did not hit 30 homers in 2011, and has only hit 30+ once in 4 years.... please tell us what is so FREAKING great about that? Stop FREAKING acting like Ortiz is the 35/115 guy of days long GONE.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Now if you want someone closer to those stats (and a lot of you have been saying that those stats make a player irreplacable) you have got Kevin Youkilis. Over the past four years his average stats are .295 AVG 23 HR 88 RBI .397 OBP with 178 less plate appearances. I know that is because he is on the sideline more but if you add 178 atbats worth of Mike Aviles (44.5 per year) the the average season totals are .294 AVG 24 HR 93 RBI .390 OBP. This is just my argument that trading Youk, as many people suggest we should, is a much worse idea than letting Papi go. It will be even harder replacing Youk than it would be Papi. So do we let Papi go? Maybe. Do we get rid of Kevin Youkilis? Absolutely not
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    There's a reason most choose to use the last 3yr average. Ortiz was injured in 2008 and hit only 23 homers in 416 AB's. But at his pace that year of a dinger every 18 AB's or so, he'd have ended  the year at 29 had he gotten his other 100 AB's in. Face it guys...the man is most definitely a 30 homer guy. A better argument for you guys knocking him would be that he's not a .300 guy, though I would argue that a guy capable of hitting .309 this yr over 525 AB's, is capable of hitting .300 next yr. And what of my other points? His affable personality and positive clubhouse presence? Teams kill for guys like him...trust me! BurritoT, while your inflammatory words "TEAKUS would have you believe the world is coming to an end...." make for exciting reading, I assure you we'll survive as an organization if the entire team gets rubbed out in a plane crash next week. So survival is not the question. The question is simply would we be better off with or without Ortiz next year, and I believe it's obvious that with is better.



    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]Although I am OK with either signing him or letting him go (I would probably rather let him go but if the price is right why not?) I would like to get the correct stats out there. He is not a .300 AVG 30 HR 100 RBI .400 OBP guy. His average stats for the last four years are  .270 AVG 28 HR 96.5 RBI .367 OBP. The stats are not that far off so its not bad but i would like for us to start using the correct stats
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]There's a reason most choose to use the last 3yr average. Ortiz was injured in 2008 and hit only 23 homers in 416 AB's. But at his pace that year of a dinger every 18 AB's or so, he'd have ended  the year at 29 had he gotten his other 100 AB's in. Face it guys...the man is most definitely a 30 homer guy. A better argument for you guys knocking him would be that he's not a .300 guy, though I would argue that a guy capable of hitting .309 this yr over 525 AB's, is capable of hitting .300 next yr. And what of my other points? His affable personality and positive clubhouse presence? Teams kill for guys like him...trust me! BurritoT, while your inflammatory words " TEAKUS would have you believe the world is coming to an end...." make for exciting reading, I assure you we'll survive as an organization if the entire team gets rubbed out in a plane crash next week. So survival is not the question. The question is simply would we be better off with or without Ortiz next year, and I believe it's obvious that with is better. In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]
    I am actually perfectly ok with signing back Papi. I was just trying to make the point as you can see in my next post that if Papi is a necessary signing, then trading Youk would be prepostorous. And the same injury argument can be made for Youk the year before this last year
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I hear you and see your point as reasonable. I do love Youk and consider him incredibly valuable for his defense as well as offense. I do worry about his innability to stay on the field ( he's averaged only 428 AB's the past 3 yrs), and note that Papi has averaged 528 AB's in the same period. Granted, he did this as a DH while Youk was killing himself at the hot corner. I'm also thrilled at reports about Youk's surgery outcome, and hope he's 100% for next year. Ortiz has actually been shockingly resiliant over his stellar career in Beantown, averaging 526.44 AB's per yr, and only missing 5oo AB's once in the past 8yrs. Here's one fan hoping we have BOTH of these studs helping us win a ring next year! 



    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : I am actually perfectly ok with signing back Papi. I was just trying to make the point as you can see in my next post that if Papi is a necessary signing, then trading Youk would be prepostorous. And the same injury argument can be made for Youk last year
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bruinsGENIUS. Show bruinsGENIUS's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Who realastically could replace Ortiz in today's market?
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    What is the market for a DH now.  I love Papi but I tihnk our team might have more potential if a platoon of the DH is used.  Resting players regularly and DHing as a way of keeping players fresh all season.  Will it be as much production as Papi?  Probably not but it might be better than you think when you start adding the season numbers up for everyone who DHs during a long season.  If I am the manager I would love to have that flexability when making the line up out each day and now you save some more money depending on the extra player you have on your roster.  Perhaps Kalish, Reddick or a FA signee.
     
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