Better than his Stats?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Better than his Stats?

    Is a player "better" than his stats? With all the metrics and analysis, can a player be better than his stats represent? If so, how? This is the Jonny Gomes Theorem. Gomes will not be long remembered by baseball,  a few walk-offs here and there will keep the drinks flowing for years around Kenmore Square, for sure, but he really just an everyman in the world of MLB.

    Manager John, sees something in Mr. G. beyond his .244/.335./.788, even beyond his halting stop start approach to tracking fly balls. So what is his (I) coefficient? Intangibles.

    What other players are greater than the sum of their stats?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    When the chips are down, you need players like Gomes who, apparently, keep the comaraderie going -- a guy you want to go to war with, and has your back. Can't be measured by stats, which is why baseball fanatics obsessed with stats can't put their finger on it. Players like Gomes affect the entire team -- in a good way. Anything he contributes after that, which he has, is just gravy.

    FTR I've seen posts about trades here involving multiple players where posters have said "not Gomes". There's a reason for that. And whether anyone is aware of this or not, he was in a car accident sitting next to his best friend who lost his life. I think that had something to do with shaping the Jonny Gomes we see today. JMO

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    And also FTR when a fan was hit by the beer can he kicked into the stands, I made a post saying I wish I was hit, so I would have an excuse to meet him. He seems like a really interesting person to talk to, and that would have been my only request.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    I don't think we win in 2004 without Kevin Millar telling every player on the team "don't let us win this one.....cause" speech.

    Intangibles are important, but it is impossible to prove and just as hard to quantify. I definately believe in it and was happy we were trying to change the club house last year and got Gomes. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Gomes for Denofria in a heart beat this year.

    Cause in the end, that Kevin Millar's walk was needed to win in 2004 too.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    I remember the crazy, uninhibited applause for that walk, I'm sure Millar remembers it as well. It was the start of something definitely happening. Magical.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    When the chips are down, you need players like Gomes who, apparently, keep the comaraderie going -- a guy you want to go to war with, and has your back. Can't be measured by stats, which is why baseball fanatics obsessed with stats can't put their finger on it. Players like Gomes affect the entire team -- in a good way. Anything he contributes after that, which he has, is just gravy.

    FTR I've seen posts about trades here involving multiple players where posters have said "not Gomes". There's a reason for that. And whether anyone is aware of this or not, he was in a car accident sitting next to his best friend who lost his life. I think that had something to do with shaping the Jonny Gomes we see today. JMO

    [/QUOTE]


    Very well said. Guys like Gomes who are loved by their teamates and have a knack for making the game fun and putting a smile on teamates faces is invaluable during the course of a 162 game grind. Has a way of making a group of guys [25 different personalities] a TEAM with a common goal to WIN.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    "One day closer to the parade"

    Intangibles exist. Theres always those people that seem to be able to grab the attention of others, whether they want to or not. Some people just want to be around them for some reason. The Human element is so important in sports.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to garyhow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    When the chips are down, you need players like Gomes who, apparently, keep the comaraderie going -- a guy you want to go to war with, and has your back. Can't be measured by stats, which is why baseball fanatics obsessed with stats can't put their finger on it. Players like Gomes affect the entire team -- in a good way. Anything he contributes after that, which he has, is just gravy.

    FTR I've seen posts about trades here involving multiple players where posters have said "not Gomes". There's a reason for that. And whether anyone is aware of this or not, he was in a car accident sitting next to his best friend who lost his life. I think that had something to do with shaping the Jonny Gomes we see today. JMO

    [/QUOTE]


    Very well said. Guys like Gomes who are loved by their teamates and have a knack for making the game fun and putting a smile on teamates faces is invaluable during the course of a 162 game grind. Has a way of making a group of guys [25 different personalities] a TEAM with a common goal to WIN.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Thank you, Garyhow. Probably doesn't hurt he's been around alot of different personalities. He seems to know how to bring them together with a common goal. Invaluable.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "One day closer to the parade"

    Intangibles exist. Theres always those people that seem to be able to grab the attention of others, whether they want to or not. Some people just want to be around them for some reason. The Human element is so important in sports.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm all about the intangibles. Makes baseball even more interesting.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "One day closer to the parade"

    Intangibles exist. Theres always those people that seem to be able to grab the attention of others, whether they want to or not. Some people just want to be around them for some reason. The Human element is so important in sports.

    [/QUOTE] boy, i remember when Jeter and "intangibles" used to cause quite the donnnybrook on this board :-)..Jason Varitek too for that matter....


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to garyhow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    When the chips are down, you need players like Gomes who, apparently, keep the comaraderie going -- a guy you want to go to war with, and has your back. Can't be measured by stats, which is why baseball fanatics obsessed with stats can't put their finger on it. Players like Gomes affect the entire team -- in a good way. Anything he contributes after that, which he has, is just gravy.

    FTR I've seen posts about trades here involving multiple players where posters have said "not Gomes". There's a reason for that. And whether anyone is aware of this or not, he was in a car accident sitting next to his best friend who lost his life. I think that had something to do with shaping the Jonny Gomes we see today. JMO

    [/QUOTE]


    Very well said. Guys like Gomes who are loved by their teamates and have a knack for making the game fun and putting a smile on teamates faces is invaluable during the course of a 162 game grind. Has a way of making a group of guys [25 different personalities] a TEAM with a common goal to WIN.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Thank you, Garyhow. Probably doesn't hurt he's been around alot of different personalities. He seems to know how to bring them together with a common goal. Invaluable.

    [/QUOTE] and thanks to andrewmitch, growing membership in the JThugs Fan Club Tongue OutWink

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "One day closer to the parade"

    Intangibles exist. Theres always those people that seem to be able to grab the attention of others, whether they want to or not. Some people just want to be around them for some reason. The Human element is so important in sports.

    [/QUOTE] boy, i remember when Jeter and "intangibles" used to cause quite the donnnybrook on this board :-)..Jason Varitek too for that matter....


    [/QUOTE]


    HAHA!!!! Tell me about it Jete!!  While I love the fact that Gomes plays for us....I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of him near the end of the season.  It's almost like it started to become more about him somehow.  I'm SURE it's not how he actually feels, but it just started to look that way.  Don't get me wrong....I love how he supported the city and the families affected by the bombings and he'll always have a special place in our hearts for that.......he just somehow started to get old after a while..... hard to explain. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    I'm halfway on this.  I do believe in intangibles and some players having a knack for the big spot etc etc etc.....but I also believe in an element of randomness and chance. 

    If Johnny Gomes spends another season where his stat lines are pedestrian yet he always seems to be there to make the big hit....how can you NOT say he is better than his stats.

    I actually have a theory on players who seem to perform better in the clutch, and I base it on nothing more than intuition.  But I don't think that players like Gomes necessarily become better players in those tight situation but rather I think a lot of people just can't handle the pressure and fold....which inherently creates an advantage for a player who can maintain their composure....clutch players are nothing more than people who are magnificent at maintaining their composure. 

    perhaps this element creates an environment where in the larger scheme of things a players numbers may round out to their natural talent by seasons end, but their character, composure, and other intangibles adds something in between the lines that is hard to decipher from a simple statistic. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "One day closer to the parade"

    Intangibles exist. Theres always those people that seem to be able to grab the attention of others, whether they want to or not. Some people just want to be around them for some reason. The Human element is so important in sports.

    [/QUOTE] boy, i remember when Jeter and "intangibles" used to cause quite the donnnybrook on this board :-)..Jason Varitek too for that matter....


    [/QUOTE]


    HAHA!!!! Tell me about it Jete!!  While I love the fact that Gomes plays for us....I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of him near the end of the season.  It's almost like it started to become more about him somehow.  I'm SURE it's not how he actually feels, but it just started to look that way.  Don't get me wrong....I love how he supported the city and the families affected by the bombings and he'll always have a special place in our hearts for that.......he just somehow started to get old after a while..... hard to explain. 

    [/QUOTE] hey King, well he is an exuberant guy, it was probably his way of fitting in and getting accepted, not saying it was act because he does play hard and is a hard nose type...i know it comes down to being a good teammate, but i remember him always in the center of those dustups you guys had with the Rays when he was there...


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    Johnny Thugs. 

    funny how the first thing he did the next 2 celebrations was pick up a beer can and punt it.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm halfway on this.  I do believe in intangibles and some players having a knack for the big spot etc etc etc.....but I also believe in an element of randomness and chance. 

    If Johnny Gomes spends another season where his stat lines are pedestrian yet he always seems to be there to make the big hit....how can you NOT say he is better than his stats.

    I actually have a theory on players who seem to perform better in the clutch, and I base it on nothing more than intuition.  But I don't think that players like Gomes necessarily become better players in those tight situation but rather I think a lot of people just can't handle the pressure and fold....which inherently creates an advantage for a player who can maintain their composure....clutch players are nothing more than people who are magnificent at maintaining their composure. 

    perhaps this element creates an environment where in the larger scheme of things a players numbers may round out to their natural talent by seasons end, but their character, composure, and other intangibles adds something in between the lines that is hard to decipher from a simple statistic. 

    [/QUOTE]

    George Plimpton wrote a book called, "The X Factor"  (great read), that gets into what separates two athletes with similar skills.  After reading it, you might come to the conclusion that a guy like Joe Montana has the "X" factor, while a guy like Tony Romo doesn't.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    Eternally debatable as there is no subjective measure of hustle/heart/chemistry/glue/spark.

    I fall in to the camp of "DUH.  Of course guys like Johnny Gomes are better than their stats" and.  

    My belief in the power of the J-Thuggs in sport comes from my own anecdotal experience.  I would think that to anyone who has played team sports, it would be clear that there are individuals and team chemistry that make the sum greater than the parts.  

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    Is a player "better" than his stats? With all the metrics and analysis, can a player be better than his stats represent? If so, how? This is the Jonny Gomes Theorem. Gomes will not be long remembered by baseball,  a few walk-offs here and there will keep the drinks flowing for years around Kenmore Square, for sure, but he really just an everyman in the world of MLB.

    Manager John, sees something in Mr. G. beyond his .244/.335./.788, even beyond his halting stop start approach to tracking fly balls. So what is his (I) coefficient? Intangibles.

    What other players are greater than the sum of their stats?

    Bottom llne:

    ... Gomes and Nava seem to be our answer in LF again and although they are an adequate platoon, neither are great defensively.  If Victorino goes down long term we can't replace him without a trade.  Fans and baseball experts like Baseball America can throw out names of unproven younsters all they want but JBJ is our only OF prospect close to helping this team in the OF unless a kid like Hassan can help, or someone really surprises everyone. 

    ... We have tons of SP and pitching prospects

    ... We have two good young catchers in Swihart and Vasquez

    ... 2B is tied up for years unless Pede gets hurt

    ... We still have nothing close to Papi's type bat.  Some feel Bogy can become that type of hitter but that remains to be seen.

    ... Our 3B position is Middy's to win or lose with nobody else in sight other than Bogy who is supposed to finally solidify our SS position.  Checchini is a good hitter but doesn't have anywhere close to a major league ready glove at 3B.

    So the way I look at next season is, Middy, Bogy and JBJ need to grow up very quickly while our veterans stay healthy more than ever or there will be no post season.  If Drew comes back and/or we find another productive OF that could change things.

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    So the way I look at next season is, Middy, Bogy and JBJ need to grow up very quickly while our veterans stay healthy more than ever or there will be no post season.  If Drew comes back and/or we find another productive OF that could change things.

     

    One could also look at like all we need is Buch to stay healthy and Pedey to have a career norm year to make up for the loss of Ellsbury.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    I agree with everyone here. Jonny Gomes is definitely an intangibles type guy. But that HR he hit in the WS was quite tangible, perhaps spurred on by the intangible; and if I recall. an injury to Victorino, who has his own set of intangibles. Lester, Ortiz, Napoli, and Pedroia sort of fit this profile as well, besides being good. That's how WSCs are accomplished.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to garyhow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    When the chips are down, you need players like Gomes who, apparently, keep the comaraderie going -- a guy you want to go to war with, and has your back. Can't be measured by stats, which is why baseball fanatics obsessed with stats can't put their finger on it. Players like Gomes affect the entire team -- in a good way. Anything he contributes after that, which he has, is just gravy.

    FTR I've seen posts about trades here involving multiple players where posters have said "not Gomes". There's a reason for that. And whether anyone is aware of this or not, he was in a car accident sitting next to his best friend who lost his life. I think that had something to do with shaping the Jonny Gomes we see today. JMO

    [/QUOTE]


    Very well said. Guys like Gomes who are loved by their teamates and have a knack for making the game fun and putting a smile on teamates faces is invaluable during the course of a 162 game grind. Has a way of making a group of guys [25 different personalities] a TEAM with a common goal to WIN.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Thank you, Garyhow. Probably doesn't hurt he's been around alot of different personalities. He seems to know how to bring them together with a common goal. Invaluable.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOL. I think I was probably so flattered to have someone I haven't ever really spoke to compliment my post, that I didn't even register anything after "very well said" when reading his response. After reading my response now, my comment was very similar to his. Sorry Gary, I do read replies all the way through.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    Probably doesn't hurt he's been around alot of different personalities. He seems to know how to bring them together with a common goal. Invaluable.

     

    ...It takes every kind of people

    To make what life's about, yeah
    Every kind of people
    To make the world go 'round

    You know that love's the only goal
    That could bring a peace to any soul
    Hey, and every man's the same
    He wants the sunshine in his name

    Ooh, it takes every kind of people...

     

    - Robert Palmer

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Probably doesn't hurt he's been around alot of different personalities. He seems to know how to bring them together with a common goal. Invaluable.

     

    ...It takes every kind of people

    To make what life's about, yeah
    Every kind of people
    To make the world go 'round

    You know that love's the only goal
    That could bring a peace to any soul
    Hey, and every man's the same
    He wants the sunshine in his name

    Ooh, it takes every kind of people...

     

    - Robert Palmer

    [/QUOTE]

    Very apt selection, Moon. I was wondering what had happened to your off-season songs and poems! :)

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    I think of Jon Lester as better than his stats.  His stats say he's a guy who's going to put up an ERA of about 3.75.  But when he is pitching at his true level of ability he's a stud hoss who can win you a World Series.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Better than his Stats?

    This is why WAR and all these other advanced metrics are garbage.  Look at all the nonsense about Drew being one of the best SS last year and the guy cant get a contract to save his life.  I liked him and wanted him re inked for 7.5x2 but no way is he worth WAR money. 

     

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