Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : that's a great point SS originally I thought his numbers came up a tad short but I'm thinkin different right now he was also 4th in rbi's 4 the decade add that to his OBP lack of K's - 5 times he didn't K more than walk oh yeah sorry spaceman  I almost forgot his D & great arm too
    Posted by pinstripezac[/QUOTE]

    thanks . . . and another thought on Dewey . . . I realize GGs in the outfield don't really get much vote attention, but at the time of his retirement, only 3 other guys had earned more gold gloves that Dwight -- /> Mays, Clemente, and Kaline . . . that's pretty high class company
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    i spent too many years watching Dewey hit poorly...he was never comfy with any batting stance but it was always secondary to his cannon arm and fielding....

    but im going to go out on a limb and say JD Drew played rf as well...he played angles better and always seemed to be in position to make any play...Dewey is an icon for his arm....

    not a big fan of his HOF entry...but like Jim Rice he looks better each year in this era of druggies...
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]i spent too many years watching Dewey hit poorly...he was never comfy with any batting stance but it was always secondary to his cannon arm and fielding.... but im going to go out on a limb and say JD Drew played rf as well...he played angles better and always seemed to be in position to make any play...Dewey is an icon for his arm.... not a big fan of his HOF entry...but like Jim Rice he looks better each year in this era of druggies...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    G- Dewey was never comfy with any batting stances??  His crazy, wide-leg, low-bat-hang stance and slow bat waggle is one of the most iconic in baseball.  He used it almost his entire career.  Pretty sure he was comfy with it.  

    And, while he defintely had some worse years than others, its pretty harsh to say 'too many years watching him hit poorly'.  He had hardly any years in which he hit 'poorly' ... by any standard.

    And, while JD certainly played a nice RF, if you think he played as strong a RF as Dewey, well, I'll say thats a testament to how easy Dewey made it look out there.  If you were to say Clemente played as good as Evans, I'd accept that.  But JD Drew?  I don't think you were paying attention brother.


     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]i spent too many years watching Dewey hit poorly...he was never comfy with any batting stance but it was always secondary to his cannon arm and fielding.... but im going to go out on a limb and say JD Drew played rf as well...he played angles better and always seemed to be in position to make any play...Dewey is an icon for his arm.... not a big fan of his HOF entry...but like Jim Rice he looks better each year in this era of druggies...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]


    Actually the point about batting stance was only true until 1980 or '81. That's was Hriniak's greatest contribution to Evans. It wasn't so much the swing as it was getting Evans to stick with one approach, which is what Evans finally did.

    I agree that Drew played RF as well as Evans, but I disagree in that Drew played the angles better. Evans was a great RF beyond having a cannon for an arm. Evans played the nuances of RF at Fenway like Yaz did with the wall in LF, especially the old wall before they refaced in '76 when it gave truer bounces off the wall.

    As for HOF. I've always viewed Evans in the Brooks Robinson mold. Robinson's offensive numbers were mediocre for HOF 3B, but it was the defense that carried so much weight.

    Now defense in RF isn't has important as defense at 3B, but on the other hand, Evans' offensive numbers are stronger so the defense doesn't have to carry the same weight. So when you put the offensive and defense combination together, you can make a strong case.

    Like you said, like Rice, he does look better and better in "this era of druggies."

     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    Evans also played the sun field in a whole lot more day games than Drew ever did.  Drew was darned good, but not as good as Evans.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    The moustache alone deserves Cooperstown.  There is no Magnum PI without Dwight Evans.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : Actually the point about batting stance was only true until 1980 or '81. That's was Hriniak's greatest contribution to Evans. It wasn't so much the swing as it was getting Evans to stick with one approach, which is what Evans finally did. I agree that Drew played RF as well as Evans, but I disagree in that Drew played the angles better. Evans was a great RF beyond having a cannon for an arm. Evans played the nuances of RF at Fenway like Yaz did with the wall in LF, especially the old wall before they refaced in '76 when it gave truer bounces off the wall. As for HOF. I've always viewed Evans in the Brooks Robinson mold. Robinson's offensive numbers were mediocre for HOF 3B, but it was the defense that carried so much weight. Now defense in RF isn't has important as defense at 3B, but on the other hand, Evans' offensive numbers are stronger so the defense doesn't have to carry the same weight. So when you put the offensive and defense combination together, you can make a strong case. Like you said, like Rice, he does look better and better in "this era of druggies."
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Right, thats my point, it literally took him ten years to even get close to .300   I remember he was at .250 for about half that time....when he did finally get comfy, he was a pretty good hitter...if he started his career hitting like that, he wouldve been in the HOF certainly....but those first ten years were mediocre at best at the plate....if youre going to have that low of a BA than you need to hit some serious homers....
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : Actually the point about batting stance was only true until 1980 or '81. That's was Hriniak's greatest contribution to Evans. It wasn't so much the swing as it was getting Evans to stick with one approach, which is what Evans finally did. I agree that Drew played RF as well as Evans, but I disagree in that Drew played the angles better. Evans was a great RF beyond having a cannon for an arm. Evans played the nuances of RF at Fenway like Yaz did with the wall in LF, especially the old wall before they refaced in '76 when it gave truer bounces off the wall. As for HOF. I've always viewed Evans in the Brooks Robinson mold. Robinson's offensive numbers were mediocre for HOF 3B, but it was the defense that carried so much weight. Now defense in RF isn't has important as defense at 3B, but on the other hand, Evans' offensive numbers are stronger so the defense doesn't have to carry the same weight. So when you put the offensive and defense combination together, you can make a strong case. Like you said, like Rice, he does look better and better in "this era of druggies."
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    If it were down to the last out of the world series and there was a runner on third -  i would want dewey making the throw to home....but if it had to be caught for an out, i would take drew anytime - that guy was always in great position, could read hit balls well, and had excellent speed (something Dewey didnt have)
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : If it were down to the last out of the world series and there was a runner on third -  i would want dewey making the throw to home....but if it had to be caught for an out, i would take drew anytime - that guy was always in great position, could read hit balls well, and had excellent speed (something Dewey didnt have)
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    I agree that Drew had more speed, but they both knew how to put themselves in great position and both coulr read hit balls well. Evans could cover a lot of ground, which he showed with that great catch in the W.S. that Sparky Anderson once called the greatest catch he ever saw.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : Dewey's home/road splits are not as dramatic as Larry Walker's...not saying Dewey should be in the Hall but Bill James makes some great points about perception and where Dewey ranked in his era...very underrated
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    No, but Dewey's career away numbers are .261 / .361 / .437 / .798 - that's maybe slightly above average for an outfielder?  He was always one of my favorite players, but it's hard to argue he's a Hall of Famer. 

     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : Larry Walker had a better career all around and is'nt and probably never will make the HOF,better numbers all around and as good or better defensively...dwight evans should NOT be in the hall
    Posted by iamme17[/QUOTE]Dewey finished his career in the top 50 players all time in every offensive statistical category he was Youk before Youk was born!
    His power numbers went up every year and he rarely struckout even when he was hitting .250,but if the fact that he is top 50 in all offensive categories isn't enough, he was the best RF in the game not named Roberto Clemente and one could argue he was even better than RC...He should have gone in ahead of Rice IMHO.Oh by the way Walker couldn't even sniff the leather that Dewey played with...By the way for all you guys who didn't know it Dewey was a pitcher in LL's and High School.I know because I played against his teams in Chattsworth,CA.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    As much as I loved Evans as a player, there have to be at least a dozen more deserving outfielders who are not in the Hall of Fame...

     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    Start naming them.  James's point was that during his playing time, there was only one RFer who was more deserving, and that one (Winfield) is in the hall.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]Start naming them.  James's point was that during his playing time, there was only one RFer who was more deserving, and that one (Winfield) is in the hall.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    I like Dwight Evans, defense is my thing he was a great ballplayer but like Posada not quite HOF.

    You really believe that Evans is more deserving than Reggie Jackson for that era? Jackson was an MVP and had 563 homeruns, a few rings with different teams and named Mr. October for how well he played in the post season. I know he had a mediocre glove but the voters obviously agree with me, Jackson is in.

    My rule of thumb is if you have to argue a case for the HOF then he doesn't belong.

    Only the best of the best, but I do agree in recent years it is being watered down. Ozzie was voted in for his glove.

    http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/562896/hall-of-wwar-rf.png
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    Tony Gwynn and Hank Aaron played in and around that era too neither of them was too shabby.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    How can you not have Roger Maris in the Hall?

    He was a rightfielder and a damn good one too.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]Start naming them.  James's point was that during his playing time, there was only one RFer who was more deserving, and that one (Winfield) is in the hall.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    OK

    Babe Herman
    Bernie Williams
    Al Oliver
    Dave Parker
    Tony Oliva
    Richie Ashburn
    Dummy Hoy
    Lefty O'Doul
    Tim Raines
    Larry Walker
    Albert Belle
    Dale Murphy


    That enough names?
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]Numbers shmumbers.  Sure, ok, Evans doesn't get to Cooperstown.  Fine.  But, Larry Walker?? Please.  Let the comparisons end at the offensive numbers.  Larry Walker is an afterthought in the history of the game.  Dewey is a patch in the magic tapestry.  Dewey played the field as beautiful as anyone who has ever played the game.  I put him in the same master artistic echelon as Brooks, Say Hey, and Ozzie.  Absolute grace under pressure.  He may not make Cooperstown.  But he is Hall of Fame for me, no question.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE] Walker outhits evans by 40 points lifetime,.313 to a lousy .270,the homers and rbi's are about the same and no difference between the 2 defensively,both multi gold glove  defensive wiz's with cannon arms.I always prefered walker over evans and still do.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : Walker outhits evans by 40 points lifetime,.313 to a lousy .270,the homers and rbi's are about the same and no difference between the 2 defensively,both multi gold glove  defensive wiz's with cannon arms.I always prefered walker over evans and still do.
    Posted by iamme17[/QUOTE]

    While I prefer Walker over Evans as well, don't oversell it.

    Walker was an adequate defender who played during an era where Gold Gloves were heavily influenced by offensive statistics. 
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : I like Dwight Evans, defense is my thing he was a great ballplayer but like Posada not quite HOF. You really believe that Evans is more deserving than Reggie Jackson for that era? Jackson was an MVP and had 563 homeruns, a few rings with different teams and named Mr. October for how well he played in the post season. I know he had a mediocre glove but the voters obviously agree with me, Jackson is in. My rule of thumb is if you have to argue a case for the HOF then he doesn't belong. Only the best of the best, but I do agree in recent years it is being watered down. Ozzie was voted in for his glove. http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/562896/hall-of-wwar-rf.png
    Posted by ThatWasMe[/QUOTE]

    It was James's point.  Not mine.  And Reggie Jackson was not one for comparison because he was a half decade older and was not just considered for the hall, but in the hall.  Winfield,  Cedeno, Parker, Evans,  Burroughs, and Cowens were all born in the same year, all very good RFers (except Cedeno, who played CF) and all put on the hall ballot.  Read the link. You will understand James's points better and understand that I was just defending his position. 

    Oh, and yes.  I consider Evans a better RFer than Jackson.  But that is not to say that Jackson wasn't the better or more HOF worthy player.  I might even choose Jackson as my RFer on a fantasy team over Evans, but I would not say he was the better RFer.  Indicative in that, for me, is how the position was played.  I said that in my lifetime Evans was the best RFer I ever say with the possible exception of Clemente.  This was NOT a comparison of hitters on my part, nor do I believe it was on the part of the poster I was responding to.
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : OK Babe Herman Bernie Williams Al Oliver Dave Parker Tony Oliva Richie Ashburn Dummy Hoy Lefty O'Doul Tim Raines Larry Walker Albert Belle Dale Murphy That enough names?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
     
    the Hall does not compare players of different eras.  They choose players who play from the same era.  Some say the stipulation should be around being the best at your position for a decade or more.  I believe that is the point of view implicit in James's thesis.  That said:

    Take out the guys who were not contemporaries (Herman, Oliva, Ashburn, Hoy, O'Doul, and Belle) and those who did not play RF (Williams, Raines, Oliver-who spent most of his career as a marginal OF/1B and ended it as a 1b/DH) and your list is down to Parker, Walker and Belle.  James provided proof as to why Evans was actually the better hitter, and far better fielder than Parker.  And I already said I consider Walker deserving of consideration along with Evans (and over Parker). But Belle? Are you kidding? He has the inferior offensive stats AND couldn't hold a candle to Evans as a fielder. Was Belle even ever on a ballot?
     
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    Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame

    In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bill James:"Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown" : An open letter to the Hall of Fame : OK Babe Herman Bernie Williams Al Oliver Dave Parker Tony Oliva Richie Ashburn Dummy Hoy Lefty O'Doul Tim Raines Larry Walker Albert Belle Dale Murphy That enough names?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    I don't agree with all of those names, but I like Dale Murphy a lot for the HOF.  He's one of those guys that had a tremendous peak, but average or sub-par years in his 30s.  But that was often a result of playing through injuries - if Murphy retired in 88, he'd be regarded as an offensive Sandy Koufax.  

    I think Fred Lynn is a similar profile - his best years are easily on par with a Kirby Pucket, for example.  I think a guy like Lynn is a better candidate than Evans, because there were years when he was flat out the best player in the league, or top 5.  Evans was very good for a very long time, but he was never the guy that pitchers feared - that could be part of the reason for his terrific OBP.


     

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