Bobby V--so far, so good

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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : The Dodgers were one pitch... until Thompson's homer, and one pitch... untll Mickey Owens's passed ball -- and the Sox were in until Buckner.... There is a long list of events like this. Terry's team took the pipe -- not just on "one pitch" but by taking an historic swan dive. THAT is a fact.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    And the Sox were a ground-rule hop from losing in 4 games to the Yankees in 04...then they performed THE GREATEST COMEBACK IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL...THAT IS A FACT TOO. AND WHO MANAGED THAT AMAZING COMEBACK--TITO FRANCONA..THAT'S WHO. So yeah, the Sox were a pitch away from the postseason last year despite the "swan dive." And yes, the Sox were 1 out away with no one on base 86, and I don't take anything away from McNamara that season. Just as the Sox did just fine in 2003 before a manager decided he was Bobby Valentine bright.
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    It was kind of inevitable that things here were going to end badly for Francona.  They usually do for managers. 
     
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    I cannot believe BV let Lester pitch a complete game!  Tito would have pulled him after 6 and we would have won 12-11 in extra innings.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : And the Sox were a ground-rule hop from losing in 4 games to the Yankees in 04...then they performed THE GREATEST COMEBACK IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL...THAT IS A FACT TOO. AND WHO MANAGED THAT AMAZING COMEBACK--TITO FRANCONA..THAT'S WHO. So yeah, the Sox were a pitch away from the postseason last year despite the "swan dive." And yes, the Sox were 1 out away with no one on base 86, and I don't take anything away from McNamara that season. Just as the Sox did just fine in 2003 before a manager decided he was Bobby Valentine bright.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    You made my point about the principle of "one pitch away." The Yankees were one ground-ball double from going to the WS. Absent the swan dive, that one pitch means nothing. 

     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : I have to disagree with the "about as good" portion of your post. I believe that if Bobby V. took over the Sox in 2004, they would have had more success than qualifying for 2 Worls series. I believe, given the talent they had, that they underachieved for 6 of the 8 years that Francona was at the helm. I know most fans were thrilled with the 2004 WS Championship. I wanted a dynasty, and I believe the talent was here to be a dynasty. In the last 7 years under Francona, they made it to one World Series. I believe they should have been in more.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    So since 2004, during Tito's tenure, only Tony LaRussa won two World Series, and you hypothetically suggest that someone else would have done better?  It's kind of like saying that Josh Hamilton should have hit 5 home runs in the game last week instead of 4 because he was hitting against lesser pitching. 

    Here's my response to your expecting a dynasty.

     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]Yeah...some folks do have some strange devotion to Francona.  Maybe they came from broken homes and Francona's become a surrogate daddy figure to them or something....and they feel abandoned again somehow.  Some weird psychological thing going on there.
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]

    I can't speak for the others, but I didn't come from a broken home.  I wouldn't say that I have a strange devotion to Terry Francona, but somewhere along the line, I learned this concept called gratitude, and think that maybe it applies at least a little to the manager that was the steward of two World Championship teams for the franchise that had assumed an identify for failure.  

    As for you, I'm sorry about your amnesia, incapacity for gratitude, or whatever makes you hold this hard and dumb irrational take about Francona and others that appreciated his accomplishments.  Or maybe it was just the lead paint chips in that otherwise happy household with parents for whom I hope you are grateful.  
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]just saw uncle tito on espn spin doctoring for beckett.  "he's a likable guy, just a little stubborn." no wonder the team walked all over him. grow a pair tito! baseball manager-hell no; everybody's best friend-hell yes!
    Posted by mryazz[/QUOTE]

    And Valentine has really done wonders with Beckett.  He has showed him who's boss.  We have no issues with Josh now at all.  He's a new man.  Good thing they brought Bobby in to restore order. 
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    A lot of people saying that Terry got a gimme with his championship team waiting to happen.  Was it really that much different than Grady Little's team that came up short? IMHO Terry pushed the right buttons and will go down as the best Sox manager of any or your lifetimes.  

    I also would be very supportive of Pedey and think he is what a ball player should be.  I beleive his comments were comments that almost any employee would make when he saw management throwing his colleagues under the bus.  He was taking a leadership role and sticking up for his teammates.  
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : And Valentine has really done wonders with Beckett.  He has showed him who's boss.  We have no issues with Josh now at all.  He's a new man.  Good thing they brought Bobby in to restore order. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]
    What are the issues with Beckett? He's thrown two stinkers but otherwise has pitched well. The club skipped his regular start in order to beat the deadline for retaining Cook. Beckett said that even after a 126 pitch outing and soreness, he could have started. On his day off, he played golf. Players do that all the time. Apparently, he wasn't really injured, and was taking no risks by golfing. The team couldn't get its stories straight. He was snippy when asked about playing golf. Is his personality the issue? Not apparently for his teammates or his manager. For the press, yes, but it exists to manufacture issues.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    Dannycater,

    You miss my point about Francona.  I thought he had a very good run, best in Boston Red Sox history, but I also thought it was time to go after 8 years.  He had clearly lost control of his starters, who simply stopped conditioning exercises during the season.  I always defended Francona when he was the Sox manager. 

    I had no preconceptions about Bobby V, but early on liked the fact that he went to see all the key players and then some on their home turf.  He was very enthusiastic in ST.  This has been a monumentally difficult year for him and the team, mostly because of the lousy pitching.  The team ERA is still the 2d worst in MLB.  But he stuck with Aceves as his closer and it's really worked.  He has used the bullpen a ton, but they look fresh and eager.  He has moved a lot of different guys in and out of the lineup, and it has worked. 

    Francona's strength was his relationship with and protectiveness of his players, and in the end that is what betrayed him.  The pitchers took advantage of his tolerance.   The one guy I think he did betray was Ellsbury.  In fact, I'm guessing he encouraged Youk to sound off saying Ells should not have gone to AZ for part of his recovery in 2010.  I think 2010 is one of the reasons why Ellsbury can't wait to get out of Boston.  Ironically, he was hands down the best player on the Sox in September 2011--better than Pedroia or Agon or Ortiz. 

    Let's be realistic about this managing stuff.  It does help a ton when the FO delivers a bunch of really good players.  2004 was a miracle year, one of the most dramatic in MLB history with that amazing ALCS comeback against the Yankees.  But that year the Sox had the best hitting/scoring in the AL and the 3d best pitching (ERA).  The lineup had no holes and had Manny and Ortiz in the middle of it.  And Schilling that year was very much an ace and Foulke a good closer.  In 2007 the Sox had the best hitting/scoring in the AL and the best ERA. 

    Francona could not "manage" the Sox into the playoffs in 2009, 2010 and 2011 because the pitching went south.  He still had the hitting/scoring, but you need more than that.  September 2011 was simply the last straw of a long term trend. 

    What I like about Valentine is that he has repeatedly said he gets the blame for the W-L record and that he expects to be evaluated on whether the team wins or loses.  I also like the fact that he doesn't spend 2 or 3 hours every darn day playing cribbage with one of his players (Pedroia). 

    Fivekatz has repeatedly hammered Bobby V for leaving starters in too long, but I agree with Bobby V.  When you only go out there every fifth day, you need to be able to throw more than 90 or so pitches--effectively.  I doubt that he has had any big talk with Beckett, but right now you can bet Josh feels surrounded by guys who are trying a lot harder than he is. 
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : so they feasted on lousy Baltimore and Toronto teams for a quarter of their games -- how'd they do in the postseaon that year?
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]
    They didn't make the postseason, which any objective observer would understand given the circumstances. And for the record, the Sox went 22-12 vs. the Yankees, Angels and Phillies that year.

    But nice attempt at moving the goal posts when your argument is shot down and obliterated.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]Dannycater, You miss my point about Francona.  I thought he had a very good run, best in Boston Red Sox history, but I also thought it was time to go after 8 years.  He had clearly lost control of his starters, who simply stopped conditioning exercises during the season.  I always defended Francona when he was the Sox manager.  I had no preconceptions about Bobby V, but early on liked the fact that he went to see all the key players and then some on their home turf.  He was very enthusiastic in ST.  This has been a monumentally difficult year for him and the team, mostly because of the lousy pitching.  The team ERA is still the 2d worst in MLB.  But he stuck with Aceves as his closer and it's really worked.  He has used the bullpen a ton, but they look fresh and eager.  He has moved a lot of different guys in and out of the lineup, and it has worked.  Francona's strength was his relationship with and protectiveness of his players, and in the end that is what betrayed him.  The pitchers took advantage of his tolerance.   The one guy I think he did betray was Ellsbury.  In fact, I'm guessing he encouraged Youk to sound off saying Ells should not have gone to AZ for part of his recovery in 2010.  I think 2010 is one of the reasons why Ellsbury can't wait to get out of Boston.  Ironically, he was hands down the best player on the Sox in September 2011--better than Pedroia or Agon or Ortiz.  Let's be realistic about this managing stuff.  It does help a ton when the FO delivers a bunch of really good players.  2004 was a miracle year, one of the most dramatic in MLB history with that amazing ALCS comeback against the Yankees.  But that year the Sox had the best hitting/scoring in the AL and the 3d best pitching (ERA).  The lineup had no holes and had Manny and Ortiz in the middle of it.  And Schilling that year was very much an ace and Foulke a good closer.  In 2007 the Sox had the best hitting/scoring in the AL and the best ERA.  Francona could not "manage" the Sox into the playoffs in 2008, 2009, and 2010 because the pitching went south.  He still had the hitting/scoring, but you need more than that.  September 2011 was simply the last straw of a long term trend.  What I like about Valentine is that he has repeatedly said he gets the blame for the W-L record and that he expects to be evaluated on whether the team wins or loses.  I also like the fact that he doesn't spend 2 or 3 hours every darn day playing cribbage with one of his players (Pedroia).  Fivekatz has repeatedly hammered Bobby V for leaving starters in too long, but I agree with Bobby V.  When you only go out there every fifth day, you need to be able to throw more than 90 or so pitches--effectively.  I doubt that he has had any big talk with Beckett, but right now you can bet Josh feels surrounded by guys who are trying a lot harder than he is. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    Well, they're playing well the past few games, so we'll see how it plays out. But again, I'd like to see more long efforts from Lester, Beckett and whoever else wants to step up. As for the idea that Valentine will let his starters go longer than Tito, most managers are still going by the pitch counts, not the innings. If it goes 9, it's usually because the pitch count stays in the 110 range. Charley Manuel seems to abuse some of his starters, but more so because he has a few CG type guys. I am showing my gratitude toward Tito in my posts. I don't think people appreciated how much he did keep that clubhouse together for years and years to succeed with a large roster changeover. Injuries to key players also hampered some of the Sox playoff runs during Tito's tenure. I see a lot of venom toward Tito however from fans. He's got my all-time free pass.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    maxi u are 100% dead on with BV leaving the men in to pitch deep into the games.... great way to go, I love it!
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : What are the issues with Beckett? He's thrown two stinkers but otherwise has pitched well. The club skipped his regular start in order to beat the deadline for retaining Cook. Beckett said that even after a 126 pitch outing and soreness, he could have started. On his day off, he played golf. Players do that all the time. Apparently, he wasn't really injured, and was taking no risks by golfing. The team couldn't get its stories straight. He was snippy when asked about playing golf. Is his personality the issue? Not apparently for his teammates or his manager. For the press, yes, but it exists to manufacture issues.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I agree on Beckett. He's still one of the two best pitchers on the staff, and a lot of the beer/chicken/attitude parade is more hype than reality. He's always been a bit aloof (Lackey and him were buddies right away, same attributes, same home state). He's the guy you tend to love/hate. If he throws 2 gems in a row, you can bet Sox Nation will forget about all the peripheral stuff.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    Until he gets rocked, then it's back to being a bad teammate, he doesn't care, etc,
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : I agree on Beckett. He's still one of the two best pitchers on the staff, and a lot of the beer/chicken/attitude parade is more hype than reality. He's always been a bit aloof (Lackey and him were buddies right away, same attributes, same home state). He's the guy you tend to love/hate. If he throws 2 gems in a row, you can bet Sox Nation will forget about all the peripheral stuff.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, make that a +2.  Totally agree that Beckett can be an easy person to dislike when he isn't doing well, but so much of the "Beckett issue" is media created.  If you need proof, go look at the boston.com Beckett "poll" which is a hack job disguised as a poll.  If they had an option to vote for "this is media created BS" I would have voted twice.

    All I care about is how well he pitches.  I was feeling pretty good about him before that last stinker.  If he has a good game today, I will feel a lot better about this team.
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    I agree that Beckett is still one of the two best on this staff.  Forget the chicken and beer because it's old news.  In other discussions, however, several of us have pointed out that he is still very stubborn about pitch selection.  He loves his cutter and his fastball, which is OK, but the problem is that opposing hitters love those pitches as much as he does. He needs to blend in the breaking balls early on, before the bats start booming. 

    I could be wrong, but it looks like Salty is catching Josh today, so maybe Beckett is no longer getting to pick his catcher for every game. 
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    max, his command on pitches of late has been none. Schilling did this his last year with Sox. He'd throw pitches right in the heart of the hitting zone. All you can do is turnaround and watch the ball fly out of the park. Even if he has lost some velocity, I've seen him paint corners masterfully on both sides of the plate and often get guys out on balls---that's when he has command.
     
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    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]max, his command on pitches of late has been none. Schilling did this his last year with Sox. He'd throw pitches right in the heart of the hitting zone. All you can do is turnaround and watch the ball fly out of the park. Even if he has lost some velocity, I've seen him paint corners masterfully on both sides of the plate and often get guys out on balls---that's when he has command.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    That could also be a problem.  But I'm a big believer that every pitcher, without exception, has to mix in different pitches.  When Beckett was consistently throwing at 97 or so, opposing hitters loved it as long as he kept throwing them.  His first year here his ERA was over 5. 
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    right, he threw a lot of fastballs over the heart of the plate thinking professional hitters wouldn't touch him. Guys like Verlander, Weaver can throw hard, but have nasty breaking stuff, and still paint corners. Beckett will never be that type of pitcher because he refuses to adapt.
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bobby V--so far, so good : unlike you, oh wise and powerful one. salami, salami, baloney!
    Posted by mryazz[/QUOTE]

    GREAT comeback!!!!!!!!
     
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    Re: Bobby V--so far, so good

    In Response to Bobby V--so far, so good:
    [QUOTE]Lousy record so far, for which he blames--Bobby V. I already like the way he manages the bullpen, better, I think, than Francona did. He has adjusted the lineup trying to get more production with Ells, CC, Youk, and sometimes AGon MIA. His only sin with tthe rotation has been wanting them to stay in past 90 pitches, which is something they have not done well. When your three veteran starters struggle and your lineup is missing last year's MVP, you are in trouble. When your team seems to have retained whatever led to last Septembers epic collapse, it might be hard to maintain you enthusiasm for managing in the bigs. When you are managing a team that can't seem to win in front of sellouts of fans with high expectations, it ain't much fun. It's hard. Wasn't that what the Tom hanks manager said? The hard is what makes it great. So far, Bobby V is having a great year.
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    I will never knock Bobby unless he starts making some really bad calls on a daily basis, or his mouth fails him.  He has continued to swap lineups, which is finally paying off even though a few were inevitable due to injuries.   I can't say enough about guys like Nava and Middy replacing DMac and Youk and we are finally getting some decent pitching.

    Nava may not look like the most graceful OF at times but he gets it done on both ends.

     

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