Crawford = Vernon Wells??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Crawford = Vernon Wells??

         It appears that the Red Sox have saddled themselves with a horrible, immovable, Vernon Wells type contract, with their seven year deal with Carl Crawford. Crawford is being paid Manny Ramirez type money, and yet he's performing like...well...Wells...only worse. He's hitting just .243, with 6 homers, and a pathetic OBP of just .275. 

         For those of you who are unfamiliar with Vernon Wells, the Blue Jays had signed him to a 7 year, $126 million dollar extension prior to the 2007 season: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2698288. His contract has  proven to be one of, if not the worst deal for a club in major league history: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays. How the Jays were able to unload his contract to the Angels, and actually receive some talent in return...is a mystery worthy of the talents of Sherlock Holmes: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/cliff_corcoran/01/22/angels-jays-trade-analysis/.

         What's worse is that Crawford is producing far less than even the underachieving Wells. Let's hope that Crawford is just pressing, and/or is having an off-year. But, he's having a very off year. Here are his pathetic stats: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/5035/carl-crawford

         Here are the stats on Vernon Wells: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/4166/vernon-wells 

        
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Man, I can't wait to hear the explanation of how Crawford's 659 OPS and 31 RBI is 'producing far less' than Wells' 549 OPS and 17 RBI.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]Man, I can't wait to hear the explanation of how Crawford's 659 OPS and 31 RBI is 'producing far less' than Wells' 549 OPS and 17 RBI.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

         No explanation needed. Look at the stats. In the first years after Wells signed his deal (2007, 2008. 2009, 2010), though he under-performed his contract, he was still productive. Crawford is in his prime...and you're comparing his stats with those of Wells, at age 32. 

         I knew that there would be homers like you out there who would whine away about this thread. Are you satisfied with Crawford's performance thus far? Is it worthy of a $20mil. per year ball-player?
     
         The only reason why Crawford isn't getting more flack is that the Sox have overcome his poor play, and are currently in first place.     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Or maybe because he's two months in a seven year deal? Its far too early to judge.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    On this date in 1998, Jose Offerman as hitting .296 / .388 / .422.

    So therefore the next 3 3/4 years were all justified...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Just like my last post.  I proclaim this is nuts.  Wells has always been a bit injury prone and over weight.  He signed the big deal in Toronto because the Jays were trying to compete.  They signed a bigger guy to a huge deal at the time to continue the pounding on artificial turf.  The Sox are a couple of months in on a deal with a guy who is in much better shape than Wells would ever hope to me.  To already be talking about a contract that can't be moved in mid-June of year one is silly.  The Sox did their due diligence and wanted the player.  Because you think it was a mistake and think one slump validates your position doesn't make it so.  The Sox have all their ducks in a row...flexibility at the major league level, rebuilding the minor league system from the AGon deal and in first place.  What is there to complain about?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells?? :      No explanation needed. Look at the stats. In the first years after Wells signed his deal (2007, 2008. 2009, 2010), though he under-performed his contract, he was still productive. Crawford is in his prime...and you're comparing his stats with those of Wells, at age 32.       I knew that there would be homers like you out there who would whine away about this thread. Are you satisfied with Crawford's performance thus far? Is it worthy of a $20mil. per year ball-player?        The only reason why Crawford isn't getting more flack is that the Sox have overcome his poor play, and are currently in first place.     
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    They are currently in first place with the help of Crawford with walkoffs and raising his batting average from .160 to .240 during that time.  Obviously, we'd all like him to be "earning" 20 million, whatever that is.  The world just doesn't work that way all the time.  If it did, everyone would get paid big money and that fact alone would guarantee results.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]Or maybe because he's two months in a seven year deal? Its far too early to judge.
    Posted by NUSoxFan[/QUOTE]

         Hope you're right. But, Crawford's OBP of just .275 is frightening.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]Just like my last post.  I proclaim this is nuts.  Wells has always been a bit injury prone and over weight.  He signed the big deal in Toronto because the Jays were trying to compete.  They signed a bigger guy to a huge deal at the time to continue the pounding on artificial turf.  The Sox are a couple of months in on a deal with a guy who is in much better shape than Wells would ever hope to me.

    RESPONSE: Correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Crawford just take his .275 OBP to the DL?

    To already be talking about a contract that can't be moved in mid-June of year one is silly.  The Sox did their due diligence and wanted the player.  Because you think it was a mistake and think one slump validates your position doesn't make it so.

    RESPONSE: As I stated in my initial post..."perhaps he's pressing and/or just having a bad year...". But, his .275 OBP scares me. Do you really think that this is "a slump"? In that case, Crawford has been in a slump since April!!  

    The Sox have all their ducks in a row...flexibility at the major league level, rebuilding the minor league system from the AGon deal and in first place.  What is there to complain about?

    RESPONSE: Crawford's lack of production. He's making $20mil. per year, hitting .243, with just 6 homers, with that terrifying .275 OBP.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells?? :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Yes, guys go on the DL.  Don't read more into it than it is.  Every player has stints when they get hurt.  So the Sox will adjust.  The fact remains that after a horrible start, Crawford has been turning it around.  When you don't hit in April, folks like you can quote a "horrifying" OBP or batting average for the entire season.  Because he is trying to dig out from April makes the OBP lower.  Why don't you look at some of the trends after the bad start? If he was in a season long slump, would he be moved up in the lineup?  The answer is no. The fact is he is settling in and the Sox are playing it safe with the hamstring.  If that sort of injury validates your opinion in your mind, have at it.  The guy will have big moments for the Sox this season and will still not live up to the contract.  No one ever has and no one ever will.

    When he gets back, put him in left field, bat him higher in the lineup and watch him flourish.  He will get to the level he is used to because that's the kind of player he is.  I go with the larger sample size than 2 months.  Sorry, that's just me.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    No matter what he does, you will be complaining about the 20 million anyway.  So, we have made note of your complaint.  I'm pretty sure the organization is comfortable with the investment.  If that's the case, maybe you know more than they do.  Given the fact that the investment was made, if you constantly complain about it, you might be cheating yourself out of some joy...like the team playing great baseball since their horrible start.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    I get the spirit of the OP. But it may be very early to determine just how the contract measures up over its duration.

    There are a few ways this can go.

    One is that Crawford plays to his career averages over the life of the deal. It won't be a great deal but it won't be a back breaker.

    Two is that for 5 of the 7 years Crawford plays to his 2010 averages and declines to his career averages for the remainder. There might still be some debate about the total value among fans but my guess is the FO would feel they got their value much like they did 2/3rds of the way through JD Drew's deal.

    The third would be that Crawford ends up playing near to his career stats over the first three seasons and declines badly for the final four seasons. That would be a really bad deal of course.

    Many FA hit their legacy contract year having career high numbers. The talent evaluators are left to decide if that was an anomaly (Soriano, Beltran, Wells) or their emerging into their prime years of productivity with some possible head room left for improvement (Bonds, A-Rod 1st FA, Ramirez, Damon 1st FA). It is high stakes poker for sure.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    RESPONSE: As I stated in my initial post..."perhaps he's pressing and/or just having a bad year...". But, his .275 OBP scares me. Do you really think that this is "a slump"? In that case, Crawford has been in a slump since April!! 

    He was horrible in April and had a solid May..Thats why his BA was able to go from 160 to 243..an 80 pt rise in his BA..Half way through June he gets hurt..I admit hes having a bit of a rough start, but he was starting to contribute regularly. I wouldnt worry right now if I were you..
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]     It appears that the Red Sox have saddled themselves with a horrible, immovable, Vernon Wells type contract, with their seven year deal with Carl Crawford. Crawford is being paid Manny Ramirez type money, and yet he's performing like...well...Wells...only worse. He's hitting just .243, with 6 homers, and a pathetic OBP of just .275.       For those of you who are unfamiliar with Vernon Wells, the Blue Jays had signed him to a 7 year, $126 million dollar extension prior to the 2007 season: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2698288 . His contract has  proven to be one of, if not the worst deal for a club in major league history: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays . How the Jays were able to unload his contract to the Angels, and actually receive some talent in return...is a mystery worthy of the talents of Sherlock Holmes: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/cliff_corcoran/01/22/angels-jays-trade-analysis/ .      What's worse is that Crawford is producing far less than even the underachieving Wells. Let's hope that Crawford is just pressing, and/or is having an off-year. But, he's having a very off year. Here are his pathetic stats: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/5035/carl-crawford .       Here are the stats on Vernon Wells: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/4166/vernon-wells       
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Christ sakes don't be a moron.  Crawford is an elite player and will get it together. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]RESPONSE: As I stated in my initial post..."perhaps he's pressing and/or just having a bad year...". But, his .275 OBP scares me. Do you really think that this is "a slump"? In that case, Crawford has been in a slump since April!!  He was horrible in April and had a solid May..Thats why his BA was able to go from 160 to 243..an 80 pt rise in his BA..Half way through June he gets hurt..I admit hes having a bit of a rough start, but he was starting to contribute regularly. I wouldnt worry right now if I were you..
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]To amplify this point, in April Crawford's OBP was .204. Since it has been .312. Now granted .312 isn't exactly what you want from a $20M player but his SLG was solid and he certainly looked like he had found his "career average" game. At some point he will get hot and smooth out some of the drag that a 104 PAs with a .431 OPS creates.

    It isn't that different than the RS 2-10 start. It takes awhile to compensate for the bad run but it happens. The bigger question is Carl Crawford the .851 OPS hitter he was in 2010 or a .775 OPS hitter that his career average shows? He isn't a .431 OPS hitter, on that I think we can agree?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Forget about the cost, if you don't think having Crawford is anything but a huge boost for this team, then you never watched him play before.   Period.


    Why, oh why, do you guys pick on Crawford after a few months?

    How about giving him the whole season before you post things like this?   That seems fair.   We WANT him to do well, right??!?   How about a show of respect and support then, as opposed to this continual knocking of him every day?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Unbelievable. Red Sox playing like the best team in baseball like many predicted. So either a miserable Yankee fan or Red Sox fan with no life?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

        Hey guys,way too early to bemoan a contract and whine that they have made an enormous blunder.Crawford has proven himself through the years to be an oustanding performer in every aspect of the game and has done it in the American League east.Now,after the grand total of two months there are those who,perhaps through divine intervention,have decreed him to be a mistake of monumental proportions.How could anyone(except maybe those who didn't want him in the first place and are trying to defend their original belief)make a statement of fact that his signing was an horrific mistake.Give iot a rest for at least a year will you please.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]     It appears that the Red Sox have saddled themselves with a horrible, immovable, Vernon Wells type contract, with their seven year deal with Carl Crawford. Crawford is being paid Manny Ramirez type money, and yet he's performing like...well...Wells...only worse. He's hitting just .243, with 6 homers, and a pathetic OBP of just .275.       For those of you who are unfamiliar with Vernon Wells, the Blue Jays had signed him to a 7 year, $126 million dollar extension prior to the 2007 season: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2698288 . His contract has  proven to be one of, if not the worst deal for a club in major league history: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays . How the Jays were able to unload his contract to the Angels, and actually receive some talent in return...is a mystery worthy of the talents of Sherlock Holmes: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/cliff_corcoran/01/22/angels-jays-trade-analysis/ .      What's worse is that Crawford is producing far less than even the underachieving Wells. Let's hope that Crawford is just pressing, and/or is having an off-year. But, he's having a very off year. Here are his pathetic stats: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/5035/carl-crawford .       Here are the stats on Vernon Wells: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/4166/vernon-wells       
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    It's too bad you can't seem to enjoy the Red Sox success and have to look for a dark cloud to dwell on. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells?? : To amplify this point, in April Crawford's OBP was .204. Since it has been .312. Now granted .312 isn't exactly what you want from a $20M player but his SLG was solid and he certainly looked like he had found his "career average" game. At some point he will get hot and smooth out some of the drag that a 104 PAs with a .431 OPS creates. It isn't that different than the RS 2-10 start. It takes awhile to compensate for the bad run but it happens. The bigger question is Carl Crawford the .851 OPS hitter he was in 2010 or a .775 OPS hitter that his career average shows? He isn't a .431 OPS hitter, on that I think we can agree?
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    Terry thinks that Drew will go on one of his streaks. Should Crawford get hot at the same time and the remainder of the lineup continue to hit, the mercy rule might be invoked a few times.
    Truth is that unless Crawford has a few big years and a couple of decent years, his contract will be hard to justify, even if he doesn't decline badly in the last one or two.  He is being paid slugger's money. 


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PetesCall. Show PetesCall's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    Crawford seems to be pressing, and may be just a little bit overwhelmed by star status in Boston. Remember, Tampa is full of displaced NY and Boston people and could give a damn about the Rays. Now...suddenly...ALL eyes are on HIM. Plus, he should be moved up in the lineup. Tito will do that as he sees fit, which is anyone's guess. For now, the Sox are just glad to have a real star batting near the end of their lineup. He'll catch on...and when he does...lookout!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Crawford = Vernon Wells?? : It's too bad you can't seem to enjoy the Red Sox success and have to look for a dark cloud to dwell on. 
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

         You can choose to stick your head in the sand if you wish. I view having a guy on the team making $20mil. per season for the next 7 years, whose not producing, as a major problem.

         Let me ask you this...what would your attitude about Crawford be if he were playing this way...yet had been signed to a lucrative deal by the Yankees?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]Crawford seems to be pressing, and may be just a little bit overwhelmed by star status in Boston. Remember, Tampa is full of displaced NY and Boston people and could give a damn about the Rays. Now...suddenly...ALL eyes are on HIM. Plus, he should be moved up in the lineup. Tito will do that as he sees fit, which is anyone's guess. For now, the Sox are just glad to have a real star batting near the end of their lineup. He'll catch on...and when he does...lookout!
    Posted by PetesCall[/QUOTE]

         Could be, Pete. I hope you're right. But his horrible .275 OBP scares me. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells?? : Terry thinks that Drew will go on one of his streaks. Should Crawford get hot at the same time and the remainder of the lineup continue to hit, the mercy rule might be invoked a few times. Truth is that unless Crawford has a few big years and a couple of decent years, his contract will be hard to justify, even if he doesn't decline badly in the last one or two.  He is being paid slugger's money. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

         Agreed. The Sox grossly overpaid for him...partly to keep him away from the Yankees, and partly because he was killing them as a Ray. Here's a bio on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Crawford
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??

    In Response to Re: Crawford = Vernon Wells??:
    [QUOTE]Crawford seems to be pressing, and may be just a little bit overwhelmed by star status in Boston. Remember, Tampa is full of displaced NY and Boston people and could give a damn about the Rays. Now...suddenly...ALL eyes are on HIM. Plus, he should be moved up in the lineup. Tito will do that as he sees fit, which is anyone's guess. For now, the Sox are just glad to have a real star batting near the end of their lineup. He'll catch on...and when he does...lookout!
    Posted by PetesCall[/QUOTE]That I just don't buy. Not in this line-up. Ellsbury for the moment has a hammer lock on the lead-off spot. Pedroia's a RH which allows Francona to alternate LH-RH for the first 5 but more importantly he is a better profile for the 2 spot. Gonzalez-Youk-Ortiz is working just great. So long as Papi is hitting LH pitching like he is there is no problem having Crawford at 6 against all but the toughest LH starting pitchers.

    And let's get a little sobriety into this being freaked out about his .275 OBP. It is 17 hits and/or walks on his 277 PAs this season versus his career norm. That's one hit or walk approximatly every 4th game he did not get. And it is really early to determine what a 7 year stay that will probably have 4,200 PAs on the first 277 PAs. Certainly jumping to the conclusion that the contract will be a Vernon Wells level over reach is....

    An over reach.
     

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