Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Hoping to see far more of Nava this series, lot of righty starters for St. Louis, and Gomes is terrific off the bench.

    [/QUOTE]

    Detroit had all righties too, but Nava started just once.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from chetgnat. Show chetgnat's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    Anyone who doesn't understand why Gomes is in and Nava is sitting right now will never understand. I assume they have stacks of books about baseball metrics piled to the ceiling, and run 15 fantasy baseball teams, but will never understand what goes in inside a clubhouse and inside the minds and hearts of athletes when they take the field. For some people, the only way to understand the world is through numbers on a page, even after the experience of 2011.

    C'est la vie.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    I would play Nava if I were manager, but I absolutely, positively do no think he is getting a raw deal.  For two reasons.  First, he is going to the World Series and he is on the roster.  Second, the manager most definitely gets to decide who plays and nobody else. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to chetgnat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Anyone who doesn't understand why Gomes is in and Nava is sitting right now will never understand. I assume they have stacks of books about baseball metrics piled to the ceiling, and run 15 fantasy baseball teams, but will never understand what goes in inside a clubhouse and inside the minds and hearts of athletes when they take the field. For some people, the only way to understand the world is through numbers on a page, even after the experience of 2011.

    C'est la vie.

    [/QUOTE]

    I understand that it is more than numbers.  Often we think of numbers being predictive where's they are really more indicative.  But that doesn't mean that we should just trust 100% every decision that is ever made without question and assume that the managers decision is always 100% better than the one we would make.

    I understand and agree that John Farrell is in a better position, and has the credentials to make a more informed decision than anyone else in here....but that doesn't make us wrong.

    If John Farrell decided to sit David Ortiz in favor of Quinton Berry should that receive no criticism based solely on the fact that we are fans and he plays the game?  There is a reason why we are asking these questions and have these concerns....and this is a baseball forum and not the SOX F.O. we have every right to do so....that's a big reason why a lot of us come here to post.  Talking about are love for the Sox, and the games in general doesn't come without question of how/why the game is played the way it is. 

    If you want to defend Farrell (and I want to reiterate that I myself am a big supporter of him overall) then tell us WHY we should accept Gomes over Nava VS. RHP???? We may not be professionals, but some of us are very knowledgeable and have played the game to some degree and hold the same convictions that many of the pro's and analysts do.  I think a lot of great baseball minds and managers would start Nava over Gomes vs. RHP and we are just wondering why.

    So why do you think he makes that decision????

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to chetgnat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Anyone who doesn't understand why Gomes is in and Nava is sitting right now will never understand. I assume they have stacks of books about baseball metrics piled to the ceiling, and run 15 fantasy baseball teams, but will never understand what goes in inside a clubhouse and inside the minds and hearts of athletes when they take the field. For some people, the only way to understand the world is through numbers on a page, even after the experience of 2011.

    C'est la vie.

    [/QUOTE]

    Numbers reflect actual production.

    Numbers normally can project future production.

    Better production relates to improving the odds of winning.

     

    I "understand" why Gomes is playing. It's patronizing to assume those of us who think Nava should be playing don't know why Farrell chose Gomes to play instead. We won 6 games and lost none with Gomes starting. Nava got a big hit in his game, but nobody drove him in and we lost. I guess you are saying that if it was Gomes on 2B that game, the next guy would have driven him in, and we'd have won. Got it.

    (See how annoying patronizing someone can be?)

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    I think a lot of great baseball minds and managers would start Nava over Gomes vs. RHP and we are just wondering why.

    So why do you think he makes that decision????

    I know why.

    He likes the "energy and enthusiasm" Gomes brings to the table. He thinks that outweighs the .160 lower OPS the last 3 years vs righties.

    I love Farrell as our manager.

    I can still disagree with him on one call.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think a lot of great baseball minds and managers would start Nava over Gomes vs. RHP and we are just wondering why.

    So why do you think he makes that decision????

    I know why.

    He likes the "energy and enthusiasm" Gomes brings to the table. He thinks that outweighs the .160 lower OPS the last 3 years vs righties.

    I love Farrell as our manager.

    I can still disagree with him on one call.

    [/QUOTE]

    moon - We agree 100% on this. You also hugh. 

    The arguments for Gomes are "we won all 6 games with him". Maybe the Red Sox would have won the Nava-played games also...maybe the Sox would have scored more runs because Nava hits much better against righties...maybe Gomes could have been used as a pinch hitter for let's say Drew late in the game and maybe the Sox would have produced more.

    Even if the Red Sox win the series, I can still disagree with Gomes starting.

    I can bet you that if the Sox lose and Gomes doesn't produce against all of the righties that the Cardinals have, a lot of the posters in this thread will be ripping Farrell for not playing Nava.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    If you paid attention to what transpired this season. The answer to the why Gomes when the numbers say Nava...It's because of the makeup of the two...Gomes is one of the " grinders" they brought in to remake the persona of the team. No disrespect to Nava the kid has earned his spot too...but Farrel is making a decision based on how it impacts the team...Nava will get his chances...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    Napoli was 2-17 in the playoffs.  Farrell made a mistake starting him, and he won the game with HR 1-0.  He then won a second game because Farrell mistakenly started him.

    Papi was 2-22 in the series.  Farrell made a mistake starting him and he hits a GS.

    Vic was 3-24.  Farrell made a mistake starting him and he wins another game with a GS.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you paid attention to what transpired this season. The answer to the why Gomes when the numbers say Nava...It's because of the makeup of the two...Gomes is one of the " grinders" they brought in to remake the persona of the team. No disrespect to Nava the kid has earned his spot too...but Farrel is making a decision based on how it impacts the team...Nava will get his chances...

    [/QUOTE]

    All year Nava started vs RHPs and Gomes vs LHPs with few exceptions or when another OF'er was injured or resting.

    That's what "transpired this season". I was paying attention.

    So, "grinders" matter more in the playoffs than non-grinders?

    Besides, I'd say a guy like Nava, who stuck with the game even when at the lowest levels, is a grinder too. He just doesn't wear it on his sleeve.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you paid attention to what transpired this season. The answer to the why Gomes when the numbers say Nava...It's because of the makeup of the two...Gomes is one of the " grinders" they brought in to remake the persona of the team. No disrespect to Nava the kid has earned his spot too...but Farrel is making a decision based on how it impacts the team...Nava will get his chances...

    [/QUOTE]

    All year Nava started vs RHPs and Gomes vs LHPs with few exceptions or when another OF'er was injured or resting.

    That's what "transpired this season". I was paying attention.

    So, "grinders" matter more in the playoffs than non-grinders?

    Besides, I'd say a guy like Nava, who stuck with the game even when at the lowest levels, is a grinder too. He just doesn't wear it on his sleeve.

    [/QUOTE]


    Thanks again moon. Your points are outstanding. The 'for Gomes' cheerleaders are just that, cheerleaders.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Napoli was 2-17 in the playoffs.  Farrell made a mistake starting him, and he won the game with HR 1-0.  He then won a second game because Farrell mistakenly started him.

    Papi was 2-22 in the series.  Farrell made a mistake starting him and he hits a GS.

    Vic was 3-24.  Farrell made a mistake starting him and he wins another game with a GS.

    [/QUOTE]

    These three guys started all year. Even with Shane's poor history vs LHPs over his career, John stuck with him anyways.

    In the Nava-Gomes situation, Farrell went against his own regular season template. I think it is quite normal to discuss the merits of such a change at such a crucial time.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    Farrell might have been looking more for dingers in the 6th spot.  Even though Nava slugged slightly better than Gomes in 2013, Gomes had 13 homers in 336 PAs (.039), and Nava had 12 homers in 536 PAs (.022).  

    Dingers played a big role in the Detroit series with limited opportunities for big innings given Detroit's starting pitching.  Just look at the impact Papi, Naps, and Vic had on the series in spite of Papi's and Vic's weak averages.  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production


    Nava's HR power has dropped like a rock since June. This is important because one swing can change a game or Series. He hit his 10th HR on June 18, none in July, and none in August and finished the season with 12. This is why Gomes is starting.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    The last two posts are touching on what I've been thinking.  Gomes is more likely than Nava to run into one.  With regard to offence, we won the series with Detroit not because of our OBP, which was a horrendous .277, but because of our 4 home runs.  3 of our 4 wins were decided by home runs, and a home run also factored in the other win.  Gomes didn't homer, but his double off the wall off Scherzer, which was close to going out, was the hit that started the winning rally. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The last two posts are touching on what I've been thinking.  Gomes is more likely than Nava to run into one.  With regard to offence, we won the series with Detroit not because of our OBP, which was a horrendous .277, but because of our 4 home runs.  3 of our 4 wins were decided by home runs, and a home run also factored in the other win.  Gomes didn't homer, but his double off the wall off Scherzer, which was close to going out, was the hit that started the winning rally. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Yup.

    OBP is great for a 162 game season.

    One big hit is more important, right now.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    I guarantee if Nava had gotten the same abs as Gomes did in the Alcs our OBP would have been higher. We might not have needed to run into one if it had. JF has done a great job but I disagree with him here. As i noted earlier Gomes is the more valuable PH...we have more lefties we would hit for than Righties and Farrell seemingly wont PH Nava for Gomes but would the other way aroundu

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to tomnev's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I guarantee if Nava had gotten the same abs as Gomes did in the Alcs our OBP would have been higher. We might not have needed to run into one if it had. JF has done a great job but I disagree with him here. As i noted earlier Gomes is the more valuable PH...we have more lefties we would hit for than Righties and Farrell seemingly wont PH Nava for Gomes but would the other way aroundu

    [/QUOTE]


    Nave would've provided the hitting that guys like Pedroia, Victorino and Ortiz couldn't, against Detroit's pitching?

    Ok...

    I love Nava, but I'm not buying it.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It possible to win a series despite a manager making a mistake or two.

    I'm not bashing Farrell. He's a big reason we are where we are, but that doesn't mean there should never be any discussion about any specific decision he made or will make.

    [/QUOTE]

    Would you think every manager in baseball would love to be Farrell right now and have so called fans telling him all the bad moves he makes. Were  in the world series and fans still bi..tching about moves that they don't like......Dam !! If sox don't win series these Yahoos on here will be screamig to trade the whole team . If you want to pass judgement on someone then the next time you vote make sure you vote to get rid of those people sitting in Congress and the Senate.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Farrell might have been looking more for dingers in the 6th spot.  Even though Nava slugged slightly better than Gomes in 2013, Gomes had 13 homers in 336 PAs (.039), and Nava had 12 homers in 536 PAs (.022).  

    Dingers played a big role in the Detroit series with limited opportunities for big innings given Detroit's starting pitching.  Just look at the impact Papi, Naps, and Vic had on the series in spite of Papi's and Vic's weak averages.  

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it had to do with energy and enthusiasm not an increased HR possibility...

    Hrs vs RHPs in 2013:

    Gomes 5 in 151 ABs and 176 PAs.

    Nava 10 in 339 ABs and  397 PAs.

     

    Farrell gave Nava over twice as many PAs vs RHP than Gomes over the regular season. Then, he abruptly switched to Gomes. Gomes had been hot to end the season, but Nava ended the year at 8 for his last 14 ABs.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    The last two posts are touching on what I've been thinking.  Gomes is more likely than Nava to run into one.  With regard to offence, we won the series with Detroit not because of our OBP, which was a horrendous .277, but because of our 4 home runs.  3 of our 4 wins were decided by home runs, and a home run also factored in the other win.  Gomes didn't homer, but his double off the wall off Scherzer, which was close to going out, was the hit that started the winning rally. 



    HRs did win some games for us, but why go against the high OBP philosophy that carried us all year long.

    Yes, Gomes did get a big hit, but cleearly he was not an offensive plus over the whole series. He got on base 3 out of 16 times. There's no way of knowing if Nava would have done better in the games Gomes started, but he did have a .411 OBP vs righties all year and a .429 in limited action vs Detroit and a .419 vs TB the series before, and a .571 OBP the last 7 days of the regular season.

    I could see the move being made had Nava been struggling, but clearly he was not and is not. The odds probably favor Nava getting on base maybe 5-6 times out of the 16 PAs Gomes got- not the 3 Gomes got. Nava's hit in the game we lost was huge, but he just didn't get driven in. We'll never know, but the topic is certainly one worth debate. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    a good power hitter averages a HR every 5-6 games.  How many HR's win a game????

    I'll take a guy who can get on base 2 times a night every night any day of the week. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Daniel Nava Is Getting a Raw Deal because the Red Sox are Winning in Spite of HIs Lack of Production

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    a good power hitter averages a HR every 5-6 games.  How many HR's win a game????

    [/QUOTE]

    HR's accounted for 10 of our 19 runs in the ALCS.  I would say they won 3 of the 4 games.  

     

     

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