Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

     

    Edit: I would like to note that on pg.2 of this thread, I have recanted what I wrote here regarding Mr. James. I apologize to anyone who may have been offended.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

    I vehemently disagree with this opinion of James.  IMO, the start of the Sox downfall in terms of player acquisitions and bad contracts coincided with a reduction in Bill James' input into these matters.   Bill James is all about the most bang for the buck, an idea that the FO has gotten away from in the last few years.   I blame Lucchino.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he didn't, he's incompetent, too. Now that he's supposed to be more weighty in player acquisition and decision making, he's incompetent if he recommends paying market rate for Ellsbury's last arbitraiton year and free agent years. We'll see.

    [/QUOTE]

    As usual, everything connects to "trade Ellsbury".......

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Pure idiocy, even for thge forum.

    Softlaw says James is incompetent on the basis of he might have, or might not have, approved of the Crawford, even though it is rumored he was against it.

    On the basis of that theory, Friedman might also be an incompetant because we don't know if he liked the RS signing.

    And Antibody doesn't like him, without having a hint of a reason why.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    I think Bill James is a valuable PART of the organization. PART being the operative word. He looks at things from an a-typical perspective, and I can't see how that's a bad thing.

    Again, he should only be one part of it...like the nail file on a swiss army knife. Often unused, but invaluable when needed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Bill James is a valuable PART of the organization. PART being the operative word. He looks at things from an a-typical perspective, and I can't see how that's a bad thing.

    Again, he should only be one part of it...like the nail file on a swiss army knife. Often unused, but invaluable when needed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yup, anyone that rejects numbers as a basis for judgement is sure to fail.  But anyone that relies on nothing but numbers is likely to work sub-optimally.  I think of it like a tie-breaker.  The scouts are flipping a coin on a certain player, why not see what the numbers say?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Yup, anyone that rejects numbers as a basis for judgement is sure to fail. But anyone that relies on nothing but numbers is likely to work sub-optimally. I think of it like a tie-breaker. The scouts are flipping a coin on a certain player, why not see what the numbers say?

    As you always say JoeyB, baseball is such a numbers driven game.  As the Oakland As ad says, you can't understand the game of baseball if you don't understand the numbers.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Many of you don't know jack. Many of you wanted Werth and he got a similar contract and did even worse than CC. CC was ans still will be a roductive player. You all conviently forget for 5 to 6 yrs prior to signing here he was ands still will be a great LF. That Dodger OF the next 4 yrs will be the best in MLB with CC, Ethier and Kemp.

    IMHO it was a major mistake to trade both AGon and CC even just to rid themselves of salary.

    Just as I said not signing Paps was a mistake to the RS BP  trading those two guys will bee a mistake to the D and offense for the next two years.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to antibody's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

    [/QUOTE]


    Antibody, when I read about James, Lucchino, Cherington, Henry, my hair not only stands up in the back of my neck but I actually feel like throwing something and hitting somebody, like those four creeps I mentioned.  Doesn't Prune Face get it that the old ways are not working?  Doesn't he get  that the whole system is dysfunctional?  Doesn't he realize he has incompetent loons working for him?  How can we turn this farce around when we read some of the garbage we hear coming down from the front office.  Give them all a cigarette and blindfold and chalk it all up to urban renewal.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to antibody's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

    [/QUOTE]


    Antibody, when I read about James, Lucchino, Cherington, Henry, my hair not only stands up in the back of my neck but I actually feel like throwing something and hitting somebody, like those four creeps I mentioned.  Doesn't Prune Face get it that the old ways are not working?  Doesn't he get  that the whole system is dysfunctional?  Doesn't he realize he has incompetent loons working for him?  How can we turn this farce around when we read some of the garbage we hear coming down from the front office.  Give them all a cigarette and blindfold and chalk it all up to urban renewal.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to antibody's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

    [/QUOTE]


    Antibody, when I read about James, Lucchino, Cherington, Henry, my hair not only stands up in the back of my neck but I actually feel like throwing something and hitting somebody, like those four creeps I mentioned.  Doesn't Prune Face get it that the old ways are not working?  Doesn't he get  that the whole system is dysfunctional?  Doesn't he realize he has incompetent loons working for him?  How can we turn this farce around when we read some of the garbage we hear coming down from the front office.  Give them all a cigarette and blindfold and chalk it all up to urban renewal.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    FUNNY HOW THE SAME GUYS WHO GAVE US THE GREAT RUN FROM 2003 TO LAST SEPT. ARE ALL OF A SUDDEN IDIOTS.

    IMHO MANY OF THE SUPPOSEDLY RS FANS ARE THE IDIOTS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY BASE THEIR COMMENTS AND DECISIONS ON LAST SEPT AND THIS YEAR AND FORGET ALLL ABOUT THE PAST 11 YEARS.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to antibody's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill James. LOL Another big part of front office disfunction. That mis-guided organ grinder and his out of tune calliope Carmen (or is it Carmine? whatever) needs to be shown the door right along with Lucchino. Only then can any re-building truly begin.

    [/QUOTE]


    Antibody, when I read about James, Lucchino, Cherington, Henry, my hair not only stands up in the back of my neck but I actually feel like throwing something and hitting somebody, like those four creeps I mentioned.  Doesn't Prune Face get it that the old ways are not working?  Doesn't he get  that the whole system is dysfunctional?  Doesn't he realize he has incompetent loons working for him?  How can we turn this farce around when we read some of the garbage we hear coming down from the front office.  Give them all a cigarette and blindfold and chalk it all up to urban renewal.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    FUNNY HOW THE SAME GUYS WHO GAVE US THE GREAT RUN FROM 2003 TO LAST SEPT. ARE ALL OF A SUDDEN IDIOTS.

    IMHO MANY OF THE SUPPOSEDLY RS FANS ARE THE IDIOTS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY BASE THEIR COMMENTS AND DECISIONS ON LAST SEPT AND THIS YEAR AND FORGET ALLL ABOUT THE PAST 11 YEARS.

    [/QUOTE]


    Speak for yourself Jim----and it's seven years (2002-2008) and not 11.  Since 2009 this team has been in full meltdown.  Besides, the old saying is WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY fits nicely  here.  For straight years of failure, five since we won anything at all.  I don't call that success.  I call this going South and being a Southern boy I think you get my drift.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Sox starters in 2012:  ERA 5.19  /  WHIP 1.417

    (Blaming it on Fenway is a delusion: Team Home ERA 4.79 / Away ERA 4.65.)

     

    Oh yeah, by the way, Wake in 2011: 5.12  / 1.355

     

    Some "voodoo" numbers just for you:

    2012 team ERA: w Shop  3.77 / w Salty 4.84 / w Lava 5.75

    2011 team ERA:  w VTek 3.57/ w Salty 4.62

    2010 team ERA: w VTek 4.05 / w VMart 4.28

    2009 team ERA: w VTek 3.87 / w VMart 5.22 / Kottaras 5.36

    2008 team ERA: w VTek 3.66 / W Cash 4.81

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sox starters in 2012:  ERA 5.19  /  WHIP 1.417

    (Blaming it on Fenway is a delusion: Team Home ERA 4.79 / Away ERA 4.65.)

     

    Oh yeah, by the way, Wake in 2011: 5.12  / 1.355

     

    Some "voodoo" numbers just for you:

    2012 team ERA: w Shop  3.77 / w Salty 4.84 / w Lava 5.75

    2011 team ERA:  w VTek 3.57/ w Salty 4.62

    2010 team ERA: w VTek 4.05 / w VMart 4.28

    2009 team ERA: w VTek 3.87 / w VMart 5.22 / Kottaras 5.36

    2008 team ERA: w VTek 3.66 / W Cash 4.81

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That tells me confidence is a large part of the equation. Tek obviously was secure in what he did. Shop seemed to be with his demands of more playing time from a career part-timer. It's also the pitcher's confidence in the C.

    I think, going forward, with the new manager....assuming the team backs Salty for at least another year, he will grow into a fine catcher that pitchers trust.

    2012 was the first year Salty had a starting job for most of the season, and it happened to be during one of the worst seasons in Sox history, and that had little to do with him.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Speak for yourself Jim----and it's seven years (2002-2008) and not 11.  Since 2009 this team has been in full meltdown.  Besides, the old saying is WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY fits nicely  here.  For straight years of failure, five since we won anything at all.  I don't call that success.  I call this going South and being a Southern boy I think you get my drift.

    My recollection is that you were quite pleased heading into 2011, predicting 99 wins.  Were we in full meltdown when you predicted 99 wins?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    ((  "Principal owner John Henry told the paper that James had fallen "out of favor over the last few years for reasons I really don't understand. We've gotten him more involved recently in the central process 

    James and Henry shared a dislike for the seven-year, $142-million contract given to free agent Carl Crawford in the winter of 2010. How much influence James will have now is unclear, but the paper said that Henry wants to give James' methodology in pursuing players another chance in light of the team's recent struggles. "  ))   http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-05/news/sns-rt-bbo-newssxc18b9a1-20120905_1_bill-james-mlb-roundup-dodgers-billingsley

     

    Silverman ..Herald  "Like Henry, James was not a fan of the seven-year, $142 million free agent contract that former left fielder Carl Crawford received, one which was disastrous for many reasons. Of course, when the Crawford signing was made public, there were no reports of any dissension. Those reports only emerged after last September’s collapse, when Henry divulged his own dislike of that deal.

     

    (( " One of the (many) interesting things I learned at the Saber Seminar came from another Red Sox Senior Analyst Tom Tippett.  While James was in the audience, Tippett discussed how he had argued for the signing of Crawford, because he believed that despite Crawford playing half of his games in Fenway he would still retain 80% of the defensive value he had in Tampa.

    James argued against the signing, because he believed that Crawford’s defense would be completely nullified. " )) http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/more_prominence_for_bill_james/
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ((  "Principal owner John Henry told the paper that James had fallen "out of favor over the last few years for reasons I really don't understand. We've gotten him more involved recently in the central process 

    James and Henry shared a dislike for the seven-year, $142-million contract given to free agent Carl Crawford in the winter of 2010. How much influence James will have now is unclear, but the paper said that Henry wants to give James' methodology in pursuing players another chance in light of the team's recent struggles. "  ))   http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-05/news/sns-rt-bbo-newssxc18b9a1-20120905_1_bill-james-mlb-roundup-dodgers-billingsley

    [/QUOTE]

    You're not supposed to help out the more pedestrian students by doing their homework for them.

    I was waiting for Softlaw to back up his assertions before embarrassing him again.

    You ruined my fun, and now I need to wait for another stupid thread from him, and that could take at least 15 minutes.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In answer to RSKimmi and breidy:

    My reason is that I distrust the "Moneyball" philosophy. It seems that the Red Sox front office is dominated by corporate types. That's not so bad when your "product" is some type of commodity such as oil, wheat, automobiles or something static. Not so good when dealing with human beings, which are anything but. My perception is that the Sox pay more attention to bottom line numbers than what players do in the field. I'm not saying that the numbers aren't important. They're just not all important. The need to combine what the raw numbers say with reports from scouting staff is tantamount to a balanced approach toward player evaluation. I hope this is the approach of the Red Sox front office but I get the sense that it's not. I know from first hand experience that when too much faith is put in numbers, and not enough attention is paid to reports from the field, it can quickly lead to trouble, if not outright disaster.

    It isn't that I "don't like Bill James", it's more that I'm highly skeptical of the Monyball first philosophy which he is one of the poster children for and which the Red Sox front office is seemingly so enamoured with. As for Camen (Camine?), a machine that has been given a name, as though this somehow imbues it with a personality, also believe me when I tell you, again from first hand experience, that not evereything that issues forth from a computer is necessarily the right answer. In my opinion, it's time to put a more human face on the organization.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    And at last we agree. Yes, Bill James is incompetent, and a Paterno-loving wingnut to boot

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Antibody-The view from my desk is that the number provide a framework for your decision-making, but doesn't make the decision.  My company went all but bankrupt because the marketing people came in with a new product everyday.  'Build it and we can sell it' was their mantra.  They had no program documents, had no retailers committed to buying the product, no exit strategy, no liquidation strategy.  The head of manufacturing laughed and said half the stuff would wind up in the dump, which it did.

    I agree that scouting has its place, but a lot of times, contracts are so bad, the scouting won't matter.  You didn't need a single scout to tell you that ARod, Pujols, and Zito were going to be huge mistakes.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And at last we agree. Yes, Bill James is incompetent, and a Paterno-loving wingnut to boot

    [/QUOTE]

    James is one more guy in the FO that shouldn't be allowed in front of a mike, but how is he incompetent?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    Both sides are extremely improtant to evaluating players. The numbers and the human element. The key, like everything in life, is to have a proper BALANCE of both.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Both sides are extremely improtant to evaluating players. The numbers and the human element. The key, like everything in life, is to have a proper BALANCE of both.

    [/QUOTE]

    I have no proof of it, but I get the feeling that management just kind of ignored information that they didn't like to hear.  Same as in real life.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Did Bill James Denounce the Crawford FA contract offer?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Antibody-The view from my desk is that the number provide a framework for your decision-making, but doesn't make the decision.  My company went all but bankrupt because the marketing people came in with a new product everyday.  'Build it and we can sell it' was their mantra.  They had no program documents, had no retailers committed to buying the product, no exit strategy, no liquidation strategy.  The head of manufacturing laughed and said half the stuff would wind up in the dump, which it did.

    I agree that scouting has its place, but a lot of times, contracts are so bad, the scouting won't matter.  You didn't need a single scout to tell you that ARod, Pujols, and Zito were going to be huge mistakes.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree. Numbers are the framework, not always the final answer. Things need to be more than feasible, they need to be workable. I also think you're spot on about scouting. You can't be so excited about what someone sees or believes that you act blindly on it. A practical balance needs to be reached.

    As to bad caontracts, I hope that in the near future we will see more teams getting away from the long term 5 to 7 or more year contract we've been seeing in recent times. In my opinion, no more than 4 years, even for the so called "superstars", would be more sensible. I realize, of course, that the market will drive things and that there will always be teams out there willing to pay arguably prohibitive costs to beat out the competition. Such is the way of things in the free enterprise system.

     

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