Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

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    Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    By Michael Silverman/Boston Herald:
     Each day, David Ortiz [stats] and Jonathan Papelbon [stats] are looking more and more irreplaceable.

    Each day, the thought that the Red Sox [team stats] are going to find a better designated hitter or a more reliable and proven closer becomes more and more farfetched.

    Each day, the idea that the Red Sox can follow the route they did with Adrian Beltre and Victor Martinez — and let Ortiz and Papelbon go to free agency in return for draft picks — looks like an inconceivable option.

    And each day, the price-tags for Ortiz and Papelbon grow more and more expensive.

    So, even though the All-Star break is a month away, hockey and basketball are still on the sports calendar and the filing date for free agency is another five months away, the future of Ortiz and Papelbon is well worth discussing now.

    Facing the Yankees always lends a healthy dollop of urgency and intensity to any Red Sox-related discussion, and this trip to Yankee Stadium is no different, especially as it relates to Ortiz and Papelbon.

    Ortiz remains in a beastly groove at the plate, allowing Adrian Gonzalez a well-earned respite as best hitter in the lineup. Ortiz’ second home run in as many games during last night’s 11-6 win was more a laser shot than the towering blast he jacked Tuesday night. That home run was followed with a bat flip straight out of the Ric Flair playbook. Those antics got under the skin of Yankees manager Joe Girardi, which is not the toughest thing in the world to do. The Red Sox could not have cared less that anyone had disdain for Ortiz’ familiar act, especially anyone wearing pinstripes.

    But the Yankees don’t really have an issue with Ortiz, what they have is an issue with the DH position. If the Yankees were not burdened by long-term contracts with the rapidly aging Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez, they would be considered prime suitors for Ortiz this winter. But Jeter, the shortstop for now, DH’d Tuesday night and Rodriguez, the third baseman for now, DH’d last night, underscoring the corner into which the Yankees have boxed themselves.

    Nobody in the American League is dominating the DH “position” on Ortiz’ level right now, and at the age of 35, he is likely going to be able to command a two-year guaranteed deal on the open market at or above the current $12.5 million annual salary he is drawing.

    Papelbon is a different case entirely. The fickle nature of closing is well-known. Closers burn brightly, then flame out more intensely than any other players in the game, but so far Papelbon, with some notable exceptions, has remained elite. Breaking Mariano Rivera’s major league record for being the quickest to 200 saves Tuesday night was one convenient reminder of Papelbon’s privileged status but there was another moment, too.

    The placing of Bobby Jenks on the disabled list yesterday was a stark reminder of the fragility of closers, especially former closers. Remember, the Red Sox signed Jenks in the offseason to a two-year deal worth $6 million per year. He was supposed to be insurance at the back end of the bullpen in case Papelbon stumbled out of the gate or Daniel Bard failed to prove ready.

    Jenks, though, has been a bust: He blew his only two save opportunities this season, his ERA is at 6.57, his WHIP at 2.35 and he’s got a .453 batting average-against.

    Bard, despite a couple of meltdowns, is still having a very good season and looks like the heir apparent to the closer’s job. He surely has the talent to close, but what if Papelbon flees and the Sox decide that they can trust Bard with the closer’s job. Here’s my question: Who’s replacing Bard?

    Jenks?

    The production and performance of Papelbon (and Jenks) and the production and performance of Ortiz in 2011 is beginning to jumble the Sox’ time frame for making a decision.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from djbosox2004. Show djbosox2004's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

      Just to aswer your question,No.
      Ortiz is 35 and strictly a DH. If they could sign him for around 8-10 per for 2 years yes.Otherwise I say let him test the free agent waters.
      Paplebon,right now he`s not bad.But would`nt sell the farm to keep him when we have Bard waiting in the wings.Paps is going to want big money and I say let him go.
        JMHO
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    In Response to Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap:
    [QUOTE]By Michael Silverman/Boston Herald:  Each day, David Ortiz [ stats ] and Jonathan Papelbon [ stats ] are looking more and more irreplaceable. Each day, the thought that the Red Sox [ team stats ] are going to find a better designated hitter or a more reliable and proven closer becomes more and more farfetched. Each day, the idea that the Red Sox can follow the route they did with Adrian Beltre and Victor Martinez — and let Ortiz and Papelbon go to free agency in return for draft picks — looks like an inconceivable option. And each day, the price-tags for Ortiz and Papelbon grow more and more expensive. So, even though the All-Star break is a month away, hockey and basketball are still on the sports calendar and the filing date for free agency is another five months away, the future of Ortiz and Papelbon is well worth discussing now. Facing the Yankees always lends a healthy dollop of urgency and intensity to any Red Sox-related discussion, and this trip to Yankee Stadium is no different, especially as it relates to Ortiz and Papelbon. Ortiz remains in a beastly groove at the plate, allowing Adrian Gonzalez a well-earned respite as best hitter in the lineup. Ortiz’ second home run in as many games during last night’s 11-6 win was more a laser shot than the towering blast he jacked Tuesday night. That home run was followed with a bat flip straight out of the Ric Flair playbook. Those antics got under the skin of Yankees manager Joe Girardi, which is not the toughest thing in the world to do. The Red Sox could not have cared less that anyone had disdain for Ortiz’ familiar act, especially anyone wearing pinstripes. But the Yankees don’t really have an issue with Ortiz, what they have is an issue with the DH position. If the Yankees were not burdened by long-term contracts with the rapidly aging Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez, they would be considered prime suitors for Ortiz this winter. But Jeter, the shortstop for now, DH’d Tuesday night and Rodriguez, the third baseman for now, DH’d last night, underscoring the corner into which the Yankees have boxed themselves. Nobody in the American League is dominating the DH “position” on Ortiz’ level right now, and at the age of 35, he is likely going to be able to command a two-year guaranteed deal on the open market at or above the current $12.5 million annual salary he is drawing. Papelbon is a different case entirely. The fickle nature of closing is well-known. Closers burn brightly, then flame out more intensely than any other players in the game, but so far Papelbon, with some notable exceptions, has remained elite. Breaking Mariano Rivera’s major league record for being the quickest to 200 saves Tuesday night was one convenient reminder of Papelbon’s privileged status but there was another moment, too. The placing of Bobby Jenks on the disabled list yesterday was a stark reminder of the fragility of closers, especially former closers. Remember, the Red Sox signed Jenks in the offseason to a two-year deal worth $6 million per year. He was supposed to be insurance at the back end of the bullpen in case Papelbon stumbled out of the gate or Daniel Bard failed to prove ready. Jenks, though, has been a bust: He blew his only two save opportunities this season, his ERA is at 6.57, his WHIP at 2.35 and he’s got a .453 batting average-against. Bard, despite a couple of meltdowns, is still having a very good season and looks like the heir apparent to the closer’s job. He surely has the talent to close, but what if Papelbon flees and the Sox decide that they can trust Bard with the closer’s job. Here’s my question: Who’s replacing Bard? Jenks? The production and performance of Papelbon (and Jenks) and the production and performance of Ortiz in 2011 is beginning to jumble the Sox’ time frame for making a decision.
    Posted by Mr.Bump[/QUOTE]


    No, Papi could go over the hill any time at his age, better to have him go a year early than multiple years later.  Closers are probably the most fragile position in baseball and I would be hard pressed to invest in any of them.  


     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    Papi?:  Love him, never gave up in April/May '09/'10, thrilled he's having such a great season so far.  Hope he gets a big payday this winter, but not from us for 8-12 million/year.  We don't NEED a huge hitter at DH given the rest of the offense....can easily get a decent DH for a fraction of 10 million....and why handicap ourselves with a pure DH? 

    Pap?:  A more difficult decision.  Bard's apparent regression is a red flag.  Pap's still fairly young, has been healthy for years...even his "down years" recently were pretty good relative to most closers....and the Sox can afford him.  I'd try to keep him.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    Silverman said nothing definitive and waffled all over the place. Theo will wait until the season is over and go from there. Silverman needs readers tomorrow and Theo has the luxury of waiting it out. Next November's decisions can wait until next November - no need to panic. Enjoy the journey and the games now, savor the trip and stop fretting.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Big-E. Show Big-E's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    The decision on Papi depends on who else is out there come contract time and on what's the price. Right now it's just too much fun watching him hit - it's like the old Manny days. That bat flip was primo.
    As for Pap, look around and tell me who's better. Love Bard, but an inning of Bard followed by a close by Papelbon still looks too wonderful to lose. And so what if Jenks is another Gagne - it was worth the risk. I say keep them both.
    Let's wave goodbye to Drew's salary and hopefully to Cameron as well.
    Most important, get real about a catcher. Tek is terrific and Salty will do for now, but that combo isn't the future. By the way, Adrian is like Gibraltar out there - what a prize ! One more thing - we all rightfully give Youk and Petey a break when they're tweaked - it's shameful to have refused that courtesy to Ells. The guy starts off every game by shaking up the opposing pitcher. Invaluable.
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    I see no need to re-sign either player early. Ortiz is looking like his vintage self, and it's great to see him playing so well, but why overpay for him prematurely? Why overpay at all? He wants to be in Boston. He knows he's a legend here. He'd probably let the Red Sox match or come close to any offer he receives in free agency. Wait until then to re-sign him. I think there's a very good chance he comes back here on a 2 year deal at a slight raise from his current $12.5 million salary, with maybe a team option for a third year.

    Papelbon is in a different predicament. He's younger than Ortiz and wants to secure as big of a payday as possible. There may be a team out there that decides to give him too many years at too many dollars. Given the variability of relief pitchers, and his own volatility the past couple years, I do not think he would be a wise investment. There's a lot of randomness in assembling a bullpen. I'd rather sign 5 guys for $3 million each and hope that two of them work out, than spend $15 million on one guy and have him struggle.
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap:
    [QUOTE]  Just to aswer your question,No.   Ortiz is 35 and strictly a DH. If they could sign him for around 8-10 per for 2 years yes.Otherwise I say let him test the free agent waters.   Paplebon,right now he`s not bad.But would`nt sell the farm to keep him when we have Bard waiting in the wings.Paps is going to want big money and I say let him go.     JMHO
    Posted by djbosox2004[/QUOTE]

         Agreed. Silverman is an idiot. Too many older, expensive, yet mediocre players can kill a team. Just ask Yankee fans...LOL!!

         The Sox should do what BB and the Pats do. Though it's tough letting a guy like Papi go, look what BB has done in letting Deion Branch, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Richard Seymour, Randy Moss, Drew Bledsoe, David Givens, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and Asante Samuel go. But for Samuel, BB did the right thing each time. Let Drew, Papi, and Pap go...unless they can be resigned for reasonable money...and reload/rebuild with younger players.

         May the Sox always remember that the essence of baseball is good pitching.  
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    In Response to Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap:
    [QUOTE]By Michael Silverman/Boston Herald:  Each day, David Ortiz [ stats ] and Jonathan Papelbon [ stats ] are looking more and more irreplaceable. Each day, the thought that the Red Sox [ team stats ] are going to find a better designated hitter or a more reliable and proven closer becomes more and more farfetched. Each day, the idea that the Red Sox can follow the route they did with Adrian Beltre and Victor Martinez — and let Ortiz and Papelbon go to free agency in return for draft picks — looks like an inconceivable option. And each day, the price-tags for Ortiz and Papelbon grow more and more expensive. So, even though the All-Star break is a month away, hockey and basketball are still on the sports calendar and the filing date for free agency is another five months away, the future of Ortiz and Papelbon is well worth discussing now. Facing the Yankees always lends a healthy dollop of urgency and intensity to any Red Sox-related discussion, and this trip to Yankee Stadium is no different, especially as it relates to Ortiz and Papelbon. Ortiz remains in a beastly groove at the plate, allowing Adrian Gonzalez a well-earned respite as best hitter in the lineup. Ortiz’ second home run in as many games during last night’s 11-6 win was more a laser shot than the towering blast he jacked Tuesday night. That home run was followed with a bat flip straight out of the Ric Flair playbook. Those antics got under the skin of Yankees manager Joe Girardi, which is not the toughest thing in the world to do. The Red Sox could not have cared less that anyone had disdain for Ortiz’ familiar act, especially anyone wearing pinstripes. But the Yankees don’t really have an issue with Ortiz, what they have is an issue with the DH position. If the Yankees were not burdened by long-term contracts with the rapidly aging Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez, they would be considered prime suitors for Ortiz this winter. But Jeter, the shortstop for now, DH’d Tuesday night and Rodriguez, the third baseman for now, DH’d last night, underscoring the corner into which the Yankees have boxed themselves. Nobody in the American League is dominating the DH “position” on Ortiz’ level right now, and at the age of 35, he is likely going to be able to command a two-year guaranteed deal on the open market at or above the current $12.5 million annual salary he is drawing. Papelbon is a different case entirely. The fickle nature of closing is well-known. Closers burn brightly, then flame out more intensely than any other players in the game, but so far Papelbon, with some notable exceptions, has remained elite. Breaking Mariano Rivera’s major league record for being the quickest to 200 saves Tuesday night was one convenient reminder of Papelbon’s privileged status but there was another moment, too. The placing of Bobby Jenks on the disabled list yesterday was a stark reminder of the fragility of closers, especially former closers. Remember, the Red Sox signed Jenks in the offseason to a two-year deal worth $6 million per year. He was supposed to be insurance at the back end of the bullpen in case Papelbon stumbled out of the gate or Daniel Bard failed to prove ready. Jenks, though, has been a bust: He blew his only two save opportunities this season, his ERA is at 6.57, his WHIP at 2.35 and he’s got a .453 batting average-against. Bard, despite a couple of meltdowns, is still having a very good season and looks like the heir apparent to the closer’s job. He surely has the talent to close, but what if Papelbon flees and the Sox decide that they can trust Bard with the closer’s job. Here’s my question: Who’s replacing Bard? Jenks? The production and performance of Papelbon (and Jenks) and the production and performance of Ortiz in 2011 is beginning to jumble the Sox’ time frame for making a decision.
    Posted by Mr.Bump[/QUOTE]

    I agree we should sign Pai because it's obvious he has the motivation back in his game and who would'nt in this lineup.  Paps future depends greatly on how he pitches down the stretch and the post season..
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    The presumptions on these topics are overwhelming ( it's what were here for sometimes, so it's fine really ). If the Red Sox win a WS this year, most of these opinions will change the night it happens.
    Have both these players been perfect and untouchable in their careers? No. Not perfect, but very consistent. Consistent enough for the Red Sox FO to make fair, educated and rational decisions when the time comes.
    I'll presume this: Ortiz is not going to get $12M-$13M a year from any team and he'll eventually re-sign ( no matter how great a season he's having at 35 ).
    Pap will test Free Agency and the Sox might just match pretty much anything that's thrown at him ( Yankees included ).

    The article itself has many excellent points, except it's self-imposed urgency.

    Now, lets continue on with the '11 season.

    Please Bump in 7 months.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hammah29r2. Show Hammah29r2's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    sign em both. this teams chemistry right now surpasses even the 04 team. IMHO. I trust theo to do the right thing.
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    I really think that Papelbon is underrated by most Sox fans....yes he blows some saves....all relievers do...even Mariano to the least extent.....and Bard has blown more leads than Paps this year, so why assume he will be a better closer. The luxury of having both of them is what makes the Sox Pen better than most, incuding the yankees.
    As for Papi....we all love him, but he is going to have to take a two year deal for less money to stay, regardless of how great a year he has. 37 next year and a full time DH....realism has to set in....especially now with Gonzalez at first....we are about to have some interleague road games and Papi is going to have sit most of them and in the ones where you play him you are going to have to "rest" your best hitter....not a great situation. That said...two years....at around 10mm per is probably something the Sox would be willing to pay.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarGamble. Show OscarGamble's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    How on Earth does Silverman view Ortiz as being able to get as much or more than he's making this season? Presumably half of the teams (NL) won't even be involved in the bidding and we saw how much Vlad got this past offseason, coming off an outstanding 2010.

    I suggest 2 yrs/$22 million will get it done. 

     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    What's the asking price for both?  Theo isn't about to "overpay" for either, which is ironic in that he'll overpay in dollars and years for FA talent (Lackey, Crawford) but has been reluctant to pay for proven "Boston Capable" talent (Bay, Victor Martinez).  Don't get me wrong, I like that he'll break out the checkbook, but if he's following his past m.o., don't look for him to bowl over Papi and Papelbon with crazy dollars, especially if the draft pick compensation process continues.     
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    If Papi keeps this up for the rest of the year I don't know how you let him walk.  Through the first 1/3 of this season he is w/out question 1 of the most dangerous hitters in MLB.  Would he take another 1 year deal?  You know he wants to stay in Boston, so that does help. 

    Paps is going to want Mo type money, given his performance in 09/10, combined with the notoriously short window closers not named Riviera generally have, anything more than 2 years is scary.  If they could get 2, with a club option that would be ideal.  Bard has been shaky and Jenks has thus far been more or less a bust, both of these things play very well into Paps corner.

    Drew/Cameron/Scutaro frees up about 30 million.  With Paps salary already at 12 million this year, his raise (2-3 million) would only coubt against that slightly.  Ellsbury is going to get a big bump in arbitration or an extension.  Guys like Pedey/CC/Clay and Lester all will get a bump next year plus Adrian's real contract starts next year so really that 30 million coming off the books is probably already more than covered in 2012 increases.  They need to find a RH bat for RF and maybe a 5th starter. 

    Add all this up and it likely means that they will not bring back both Paps and Papi on multi year deals because that would have them near or over 200 million.     
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    Maybe next year the Sox can return to closer-by-committee!Cool
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    This has been a great Year for Ortiz and Pap They both need to be re-sign Theo will never here the end of it If he don't Papi right now has the MOST Home runs out of the Sox Youk still has only 8 while Papi on 17  Papelbon This is been a great Year for him He has been better than Bard Bard has cost the Sox to many games this season already Papelbon has not
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    I would sign Ortiz another 2 to 3 years He this year is Fantastic He always comes threw  He is the only Sox player w/ the MOST home runs. 
    And also Papelbon this has been a Great season for him One of his best yet He has been Better than  Bard  Bard has cost the Sox already 3 to 4 losses While Pap continues to Win RE-SIGN PAP ALSO
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap:
    [QUOTE]sign em both. this teams chemistry right now surpasses even the 04 team. IMHO. I trust theo to do the right thing.
    Posted by Hammah29r2[/QUOTE]


    I'm sorry but this just makes no sense.  Do you recall who Pedro, Lowe, and Ocab played for in 2005.  How about Damon and Millar in 2006?  Theo has shown he has no problem tinkering with championship chemistry.  In 2005 it cost them a division title and maybe more. 
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    Ive said this from the begginning of the season if they both produce which they have, they are the best closer and DH on the market next year.  Pap could go down as one of the all time RS greats if he continues to play at a high level.  Big Papi is clearly the best DH in the game and can still rake.  I think it would be foolish to bring in two guys who are not proven "big market" players who may not be able to handle playing in Boston.

    If Im play GM id go:
    3 years, 11 million per to Big Papi with a club option for a 4th at 7 million
    4 years, 13 million per to Pap with a club option for a 5th

    Both contracts will be on Avg. with what other teams would pay for them on the open market.  Neither should be expected to give a home town discount.  Theo get it done.

     
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    Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Michael Silverman-sign Big Papi & Pap:
    [QUOTE]Ive said this from the begginning of the season if they both produce which they have, they are the best closer and DH on the market next year.  Pap could go down as one of the all time RS greats if he continues to play at a high level.  Big Papi is clearly the best DH in the game and can still rake.  I think it would be foolish to bring in two guys who are not proven "big market" players who may not be able to handle playing in Boston. If Im play GM id go: 3 years, 11 million per to Big Papi with a club option for a 4th at 7 million 4 years, 13 million per to Pap with a club option for a 5th Both contracts will be on Avg. with what other teams would pay for them on the open market.  Neither should be expected to give a home town discount.  Theo get it done.
    Posted by jb12bb[/QUOTE]

    Those proposals would assure that the Red Sox are operating around 200 million through 2014, something they have said in the past they won't do but with the amount they have committed to Beckett/Lackey/Adrian/CC/ maybe they have already accepted that as their fate.

    I think you could go a year shorter on each, meaning Papi 2 yrs/3rd option, Paps 3 year/4th option.  Both options with a buy out.  If Scutaro can get a 3 million player option and 1.5 million buy out, I'm guessing Papi and Paps can get something to their liking.
     

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