Doing it backwards?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Doing it backwards?

    Just came across a good article. Give it a read...

    http://blogs.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/2012/12/shane-victorino-and-the-backward-way-teams-have-to-build-their-rosters-thes.html

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that 2 or 3 years never seems to get here. The RS are good at kicking the can down the road. Say, they'd be good in Washington!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that 2 or 3 years never seems to get here. The RS are good at kicking the can down the road. Say, they'd be good in Washington!

    [/QUOTE]


    how is that the RS fault? i mean sure they traded away rizzo but aside from him, doobie, WMB and maybe reddick theres not really anyone else who is ML ready or would have been (i dont really count BP arms because of their limited roles). kalish was debilitated by injuries or he would have been producing at the ML level on a consistent basis. everyone else has either been slow to progress, dont pan out or have gotten hurt. not really the sox' fault.

     
  5. This post has been removed.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This is a PR arcticle that is more fiction than fact. The new CBA does not mean "this is how it works, you have offer nearly 40M to old Shane". There is the trade market for very young and much better talent. Something the incompetent Cherry doesn't seem to grasp when saying "Carl's a great player".

    [/QUOTE]

    BC's gameplan for the team is focused on homegrown talent. trading away our top prospects is counter productive in his eyes and most likely will not happen.

     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    BC plan for the team is paying 80 million for Napoli and Shane and pipe dreaming that the "homegorwn top prospects" are better than the 25 year old J. Upton.

    The competent GM makes trades for top young talent, and does not gurantee 80 million to a couple of old mean who should be on 1 and 2 year contract deals.

    [/QUOTE]


    3 years of J Upton vs 6 years of JBJ, xander, barnes, RDLR, Webster, brentz and more.

    great plan. this is why you are an idiot and not the GM of a baseball team.. well that and your proposterous FA bids..

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This is a PR arcticle that is more fiction than fact. The new CBA does not mean "this is how it works, you have offer nearly 40M to old Shane". There is the trade market for very young and much better talent. Something the incompetent Cherry doesn't seem to grasp when saying "Carl's a great player".

    [/QUOTE]


    When did 32 become nearly 40?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that 2 or 3 years never seems to get here. The RS are good at kicking the can down the road. Say, they'd be good in Washington!

    [/QUOTE]


    how is that the RS fault? i mean sure they traded away rizzo but aside from him, doobie, WMB and maybe reddick theres not really anyone else who is ML ready or would have been (i dont really count BP arms because of their limited roles). kalish was debilitated by injuries or he would have been producing at the ML level on a consistent basis. everyone else has either been slow to progress, dont pan out or have gotten hurt. not really the sox' fault.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think we were very spoiled by the period of roughly 2005-08 when we brought up Youkilis, Papelbon, Lester, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bard - who all became very good, if not All-Star quality, major leaguers.

    Since then we've gone through a dry spell without a doubt, with a lot of guys who were traded away or got hurt or simply never became what we hoped they would be (see Masterson, Lowrie, Anderson, Bowden, Hagadone, Reddick, Kalish, Rizzo, Kelly...don't forget Ryan Westmoreland either).

    Will the current crop of prospects be more like the former group, or the latter? I'd like to think Doubront and Middlebrooks have heralded the arrival of a new wave of successful homegrown kids, but only time will tell. Our farm system does look much, much better on paper than it did two or three years ago, that's for sure.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mef429's comment:


    I think we were very spoiled by the period of roughly 2005-08 when we brought up Youkilis, Papelbon, Lester, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bard - who all became very good, if not All-Star quality, major leaguers.

    Since then we've gone through a dry spell without a doubt, with a lot of guys who were traded away or got hurt or simply never became what we hoped they would be (see Masterson, Anderson, Bowden, Hagadone, Reddick, Kalish, Rizzo, Kelly...don't forget Ryan Westmoreland either).

    Will the current crop of prospects be more like the former group, or the latter? I'd like to think Doubront and Middlebrooks have heralded the arrival of a new wave of successful homegrown kids, but only time will tell. Our farm system does look much, much better on paper than it did two or three years ago, that's for sure.  Flap

    [/QUOTE]

    Spot on.  Add to that the new CBA destroys the old paradigm of over-slotting and going for IFAs.  I say avoid the players in decline like Napoli and Victorino.   Take it like a man and go for the total rebuild!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    a total rebuild with our payroll capabilities should only be 2 years.

     
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  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from proftom2. Show proftom2's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    The Pats have been doing it a little backwards for years and its worked well for them They are always competitive and that is what I want from the Sox. Just field a good team supported by better than average veterans and better than average younger players. Coach them well and stay competitive. 

    So, I like a little backwards. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    BC plan for the team is paying 80 million for Napoli and Shane and pipe dreaming that the "homegorwn top prospects" are better than the 25 year old J. Upton.

    The competent GM makes trades for top young talent, and does not gurantee 80 million to a couple of old mean who should be on 1 and 2 year contract deals.

    [/QUOTE]

    A good GM makes trades that benefit the team.  Period.  The objective of a good GM is to put out the best team over the long term.  The only basis for discussion here is that there are two groups.

    Group A is always looking for cheap and young.  Group B is looking to spend.  Neither will have long-term success.  The only way tpo be successful is to accumulate as much young talent as is reasonable, and then to augment that talent with FA signings.

    Going cheaper than we need to be, given our resources, only puts money in Henry's pockets.  this is just as true for Philly, NY, etc.  There is really no practical reason to be overly cheap.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    That's why you are a lemming for idiots like cherry and inepstein and Jenks and Crawford contract bids instead of value based FA bids that land real fits and value talents like Beltre and AGon, instead of bums like Lackey, Crawbust, Jenks, et al.

    You're basically looking back, figuring out what worked and what didn't, and proclaiming that the key is to only sign FAs that work out.  Now, if you could share the crystal ball with us....

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that 2 or 3 years never seems to get here. The RS are good at kicking the can down the road. Say, they'd be good in Washington!

    [/QUOTE]


    how is that the RS fault? i mean sure they traded away rizzo but aside from him, doobie, WMB and maybe reddick theres not really anyone else who is ML ready or would have been (i dont really count BP arms because of their limited roles). kalish was debilitated by injuries or he would have been producing at the ML level on a consistent basis. everyone else has either been slow to progress, dont pan out or have gotten hurt. not really the sox' fault.

    [/QUOTE]

    If the minor league system never seems to work - then why keep pretending that is does.  So far the Sox have tried becoming the Yanks, albeit a little league version and that didn't work out so well.  They have tried bringing up the entire AAA team and that didn't work.  I just believe that management has lost interest or lacks the actual money to do what needs to be done to make the Sox contenders once more.  They bought the soccer team and have watched it go from glory to dismal since their involvement, the Sox have done the same the past 4 years, NASCAR investment didn't pan out with Rousch Racing and now maybe the money is spread too thin to do  much on any one front going forward.  FA signings/trades thus far would indicate either a lack of real money or a lack of real management skills...both of which would account for the picture they have painted thus far.

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    3 years of J Upton vs 6 years of JBJ, xander, barnes, RDLR, Webster, brentz and more.

    That's why you are a lemming for idiots like cherry and inepstein and Jenks and Crawford contract bids instead of value based FA bids that land real fits and value talents like Beltre and AGon, instead of bums like Lackey, Crawbust, Jenks, et al.

    And it's a 3 year extension to J. Upton, JBJ  and Barned are retained and Ellsbury and his draft compensation are in the trade pool along with RDLR or Webster, not both, you bid dope, and the great Brentz and one other prsopect except Bradley, Jr. and Barnes and Bogaerts (with Bogaerts added and Brentz subtracted in the unlikely event that a better offer is competing)

    "and more" is one player other than Bradley, Jr. and Barnes, you big dope.  

    [/QUOTE]


    and this is the exact package that would get it done? no more and no less? no one (except AZ GM) has an exact idea od what it will take but softlaw does!!

    SP told me AZ GM said he wants a mlb ready 3B, SS AND SP PLUS top prospects?? well no sir, softlaw says otherwise and he is always right.

    well don't take offense if i don't believe a word that comes out of that big mouth... a guy who has been wrong 10,000 times in a row certainly isn't going to start using his brain now.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This is a PR arcticle that is more fiction than fact. The new CBA does not mean "this is how it works, you have offer nearly 40M to old Shane". There is the trade market for very young and much better talent. Something the incompetent Cherry doesn't seem to grasp when saying "Carl's a great player".

    [/QUOTE]


    When did 32 become nearly 40?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think he was talking money, not age carnie...He still wont accept the FACT that teams are limited in spending on the draft and other avenues to sign players other than FA. That is why the price for players entering FA is going to ALWAYS be high and every team will certainly overpay for who they want.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Since when did 13 x 3 = 32

    [/QUOTE]


    since when did it = 40?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    3 years of J Upton vs 6 years of JBJ, xander, barnes, RDLR, Webster, brentz and more.

    That's why you are a lemming for idiots like cherry and inepstein and Jenks and Crawford contract bids instead of value based FA bids that land real fits and value talents like Beltre and AGon, instead of bums like Lackey, Crawbust, Jenks, et al.

    And it's a 3 year extension to J. Upton, JBJ  and Barned are retained and Ellsbury and his draft compensation are in the trade pool along with RDLR or Webster, not both, you bid dope, and the great Brentz and one other prsopect except Bradley, Jr. and Barnes and Bogaerts (with Bogaerts added and Brentz subtracted in the unlikely event that a better offer is competing)

    "and more" is one player other than Bradley, Jr. and Barnes, you big dope.  

    [/QUOTE]


    The DB's dont need any more OF'ers. They want MLB ready and tested 3b, SS and Pitching...Your deal WILL NOT wotk. accept it.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    3 years of J Upton vs 6 years of JBJ, xander, barnes, RDLR, Webster, brentz and more.

    That's why you are a lemming for idiots like cherry and inepstein and Jenks and Crawford contract bids instead of value based FA bids that land real fits and value talents like Beltre and AGon, instead of bums like Lackey, Crawbust, Jenks, et al.

    And it's a 3 year extension to J. Upton, JBJ  and Barned are retained and Ellsbury and his draft compensation are in the trade pool along with RDLR or Webster, not both, you bid dope, and the great Brentz and one other prsopect except Bradley, Jr. and Barnes and Bogaerts (with Bogaerts added and Brentz subtracted in the unlikely event that a better offer is competing)

    "and more" is one player other than Bradley, Jr. and Barnes, you big dope.  

    [/QUOTE]

    hindsight much?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Doing it backwards?

    In response to traven's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree that the Sox are doing things a little "backwards" now, but it is because their minor league system has not produced much for them in the last few years.

    The best of their recent home grown minor leaguers, Rizzo, was traded for Gonzalez, etc. Rizzo would be their starter at first base if he as still in the system and there would have been no need for Napoli.

    They are trying to not let any of the better prospects that they have right now get away so that in two or three years there will not be needs for signing guys like Napoli and Victorino.

    For those reasons, I have no problem with either the Napoli or Victorino signings of this week.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that 2 or 3 years never seems to get here. The RS are good at kicking the can down the road. Say, they'd be good in Washington!

    [/QUOTE]


    how is that the RS fault? i mean sure they traded away rizzo but aside from him, doobie, WMB and maybe reddick theres not really anyone else who is ML ready or would have been (i dont really count BP arms because of their limited roles). kalish was debilitated by injuries or he would have been producing at the ML level on a consistent basis. everyone else has either been slow to progress, dont pan out or have gotten hurt. not really the sox' fault.

    [/QUOTE]

    If the minor league system never seems to work - then why keep pretending that is does.  So far the Sox have tried becoming the Yanks, albeit a little league version and that didn't work out so well.  They have tried bringing up the entire AAA team and that didn't work.  I just believe that management has lost interest or lacks the actual money to do what needs to be done to make the Sox contenders once more.  They bought the soccer team and have watched it go from glory to dismal since their involvement, the Sox have done the same the past 4 years, NASCAR investment didn't pan out with Rousch Racing and now maybe the money is spread too thin to do  much on any one front going forward.  FA signings/trades thus far would indicate either a lack of real money or a lack of real management skills...both of which would account for the picture they have painted thus far.

    [/QUOTE]


    Or lack of quality FA players to spend all sorts of $$ on...

     

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