Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Seems to me that with Cherington (an Epstein prodigy) taking over for Theo  and the Sox possibly looking to promote within (Hale, perhaps), we will have the same philosophy, just different faces,
    IMO, the management of this organization needs to be gutted, up to and including, different ownership.
    It's clear that things that may have once worked, aren't working anymore and that change must start at the top.
    Francona was scapegoat for all that is wrong with this franchise, but ownership is the real culprit.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    I guess that averaging 94 wins per year isn't good enough for you. The other oldtimers can remember the years when we won only 60-80 games per season. Maybe you started this thread in order to stir the pot.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    It would be good to know where Cherington stood on all the FA signings since 2007.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Why not give them a chance to learn from their mistakes.  The philosophy hasn't exactly been a complete failure.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Cherrington said in his press conference that he was very much for signing Crawford and expects him to have a good season in 2012. I'm sure that he could not have predicted the poor performances and injuries to Lackey and Dice-K.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]Why not give them a chance to learn from their mistakes.  The philosophy hasn't exactly been a complete failure.
    Posted by greenwellforpresident[/QUOTE]

    Yep, 94 wins per season is not a COMPLETE FAILURE. Great logic.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]I guess that averaging 94 wins per year isn't good enough for you. The other oldtimers can remember the years when we won only 6-80 games per season. Maybe you started this thread in order to stir the pot.
    Posted by Rutland76[/QUOTE]

    No, just saying that new ownership may be needed. Perhaps other business interests (soccer?) could be a priority.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Now you are scapegoating John Henry and the soccer team.

    SCAPEGOAT DU JOUR.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]Seems to me that with Cherington (an Epstein prodigy) taking over for Theo  and the Sox possibly looking to promote within (Hale, perhaps), we will have the same philosophy, just different faces, IMO, the management of this organization needs to be gutted, up to and including, diffent ownership. It's clear that things that may have once worked, aren't working anymore and that change must start at the top. Francona was scapegoat for all that is wrong with this franchise, but ownership is the real culprit.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Ali, if you are talking about the front office...Cherington did say that certain members of the current front office staff will be promoted to fill the assistent GM role he just vacated. It does not appear that he is looking to hire a field manager from within the organization, at least that's what the media is saying..so Hale does not appear to be a candidate.

    I totally disagree that the Red Sox front office organization needs to be gutted...oh and good luck trying to run the ownership out of town.

    There were some clear mistakes made in 2011 with respect to player/manager relations and player behavior in the clubhouse...I think this has been fully documented and I suspect it will be the first order of business for the new manager when that guy is chosen.

    How about we give Cherington the opportunity to straighten the ship and not ASSUME he is the same as Theo. You know what happens when people assume things right??
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Either some things never change, or they just stay the same! : Ali, if you are talking about the front office...Cherington did say that certain members of the current front office staff will be promoted to fill the assistent GM role he just vacated. It does not appear that he is looking to hire a field manager from within the organization, at least that's what the media is saying..so Hale does not appear to be a candidate. I totally disagree that the Red Sox front office organization needs to be gutted...oh and good luck trying to run the ownership out of town. There were some clear mistakes made in 2011 with respect to player/manager relations and player behavior in the clubhouse...I think this has been fully documented and I suspect it will be the first order of business for the new manager when that guy is chosen. How about we give Cherington the opportunity to straighten the ship and not ASSUME he is the same as Theo. You know what happens when people assume things right??
    Posted by Soxdog67[/QUOTE]

    Fair enough. I would be prefer we get someone with a whole new perspective to manage though. But that usually requires a change in coaching staff which may not be a bad thing.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Manager and coaching staff are all gone, right? The front office will continue to be strong on sabermetrics, Bill James, and Moneyball principles. John Henry is a believer of using data and that is why he is worth over a billion dollars.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]Seems to me that with Cherington (an Epstein prodigy) taking over for Theo  and the Sox possibly looking to promote within (Hale, perhaps), we will have the same philosophy, just different faces, IMO, the management of this organization needs to be gutted, up to and including, different ownership. It's clear that things that may have once worked, aren't working anymore and that change must start at the top. Francona was scapegoat for all that is wrong with this franchise, but ownership is the real culprit.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]


     It's amazing, though hardly surprising, that the apologists simply still refuse to see anything wrong with this franchise. And there is a lot wrong here. The biggest thing being that they're system, or 'Carmine,' or whatever they're going to call it now that Theo's gone, is broken. And ownership is either too stupid or too arrogant to realize it. It's their system that keeps spitting out computer models telling them that Lackey is a good choice, that Crawford is a good choice, that Jenks, and Cameron and Drew, and so on and so on...are good decisions. And it's this same system that's going to continue to tell them what they have currently is a WSC caliber team when they run computer models. This is a huge problem

    They continue to refer to the past three seasons as 'aberrations,' because their system tells them they are. And since they've got a large number of players returning, their system is going to tell them the same thing again in 2012. 

    They still believe their system is cutting edge, when it clearly isn't. Both time and technology have seemingly passed them by while they've been continuing to take bows over the past four years for their two WCSs. And while Epstein's absence is a huge addition by subtraction, nothing much is bound to change with them hiring Cherington from within the same system.

    My guess is this will ultimately cost Cherington his job 2-3 years down the road when someone or somebody over there finally wakes up and realizes that a whole new system is in order
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    The 11 a.m. EST shift  just punched in. OurMan will follow in any minute. Poster Diarrhea booted up a bit faster on his computer. Spaceman will be here shortly to spray some air freshener on the poster with the diarrhea.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from njalb. Show njalb's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

     Rutland76   When the Sox were winning only 60-70 games their ticket prices were low, now that they expect us to pay near the highest in baseball, the product on the field should reflect this. It currently is not.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    Cherrington is not Theo.  Yes, the model will not change.  For that, I am happy.  The free agent choices need to be better.  Cherrington has already put this forth as part of the mission going forward.  Cherrington is a better baseball man than Theo.  This we can glean from his experience.  The notion that it will be business as usual is based on nothing but the bitter taste left in the mouth from September.

    This bitter taste also has people calling for "rebuilding".  IMO, this is silly.  They need a couple decent starting pitchers, a good reliever or two, and a right fielder.  Other than these needs, normal for any club in any off-season, remaking the roster is reactionary nonsense.  

    The farm system, while not top-heavy with MLB-ready guys, is deep.  

    And, finally, just my conjectural opinion:  any bad mojo that was at work this past season has already been cleared up.  The collapse and subsequent witch-hunts have cleared the cobwebs of complacency and disconnect.  These guys are coming to camp pizzed off and no-nonsense.  I was frightened last Fenruary by the seeming complacency and all the accolades already being lauded on the club by every talking head around.  It was so Rocky III-pre-first-Clubber-Lang fight that I fully expected Carl Crawford to wrestle Thunderlips sometime during the Ft. Meyers fun camp.  Not so anymore.  Chips on shoulders.  Much to prove.  This is much better jump off point sports-psychilogically.  Last year was a trap.  This year is a mission.  Just by nature of what went down ... And, John Lackey is out for the year, which cleans up any other bad mojo surrounding the club.

    This club does not need rebuilding.  re-tooling.  yes.  And a manager.

    Sometimes I am accused of seeing through rose-colored glasses.  Fair enough.  But, rose colored glasses are better than blinders.  Take the blinders off folks.  This club is, at its core, a few key moves away from being a force to be reckoned with.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!

    In Response to Re: Either some things never change, or they just stay the same!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Either some things never change, or they just stay the same! :  It's amazing, though hardly surprising, that the apologists simply still refuse to see anything wrong with this franchise. And there is a lot wrong here. The biggest thing being that they're system, or 'Carmine,' or whatever they're going to call it now that Theo's gone, is broken. And ownership is either too stupid or too arrogant to realize it. It's their system that keeps spitting out computer models telling them that Lackey is a good choice, that Crawford is a good choice, that Jenks, and Cameron and Drew, and so on and so on...are good decisions. And it's this same system that's going to continue to tell them what they have currently is a WSC caliber team when they run computer models. This is a huge problem They continue to refer to the past three seasons as 'aberrations,' because their system tells them they are. And since they've got a large number of players returning, their system is going to tell them the same thing again in 2012.  They still believe their system is cutting edge, when it clearly isn't. Both time and technology have seemingly passed them by while they've been continuing to take bows over the past four years for their two WCSs. And while Epstein's absence is a huge addition by subtraction, nothing much is bound to change with them hiring Cherington from within the same system. My guess is this will ultimately cost Cherington his job 2-3 years down the road when someone or somebody over there finally wakes up and realizes that a whole new system is in order . 
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]

    Hey splatters, what is into you man...this was a good post for a change and not the similar rhetoric that Ourman Law spews here. Nice.

    In any event, I agree that a major flaw in the front office way of doing things under Theo relied way too much on Carmine and Bill James...it is sad that we now have a name for the stinkin computer that provides the sabermetrics.

    I, for one, hope that Cherington, because of his scouting background and being on the road talking to players, will bring a little old school back to the GM role and look at player's character and temperment along with the numbers, before bringing them to Boston.

    Actually it was good to hear Cherington allude to this during his press conference, now lets see him follow through with it.

     

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