Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from the-yazzer. Show the-yazzer's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    BELLSBURY? how the he ll is that supposed to be funny?

    now if i was trying to funny up his name, i would go with PELLSBURY.

    because after BORA$$ gets done negotiating for JACOBY,  JAKE will be the PELLSBURY DOUGH BOY!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Bellsbury is his official nickname. But, you are right, he will be the Pellsbury doughboy for any GM than foolishly gives him a golden parachute contract. I doubt that will the Theo, in light of his foolish contract with Crawbust.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from canetime. Show canetime's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]Cleveland leadoff hitter Michael Brantley entered Wedesday's games with an on-base percentage (.377) that was 19 points higher than Jacoby Ellsbury's. Brantley is three-and-a-half years younger than Ellsbury. Toronto leadoff hitter Yunel Escobar entered Wednesday's games with an on-base percentage of .371 Ah, yes, the pesky facts. Bellsbury is not better than Ichiro, in early May of a long season. Bojo5 doesn't follow baseball, he is infatuated with Bellsbury. Bellsbury has weak splits against LHP this year, as well as an OBP that is one of the lowest of the everyday players on the team. He's a weak defensive CF'er and has always been all about hype without substance. This has been the propaganda going on for years. His time with the Red Sox will soon come to an end. There will be no extension nor will the Red Sox give him a golden parachute contract. His OBP, in this "break out" All-Star year his current OBP is .356 and his BA is .292. As Hill points out, there are currently several more worthy candidates. Ellsbury has a career OBP of .345, and is currently riding a hot streak that still isn't impressive as the hype he's getting from it. .356 OBP during a hot streak is hardly better than Ichrio. Get real. Ellsbury has a career leadoff OBP that is .335 Ellsbury has a career batting 1st in a game OBP that is .323 Ellsbury has a career leading off an inning OBP that is .314 These are big samples and are proof of what the overhyped Ellsbury's potential limitations are. Popularity had a way of leaving off Ellis Burks from the "best Rookie impact" list, and it has a way of pretending that Bellsbury is a player he is not. Burks was a gold glove winnner and 3 time All-Star who was not ever popular in bean town. Ellsbury will never, ever possess the talents and abilites of Burks, but has already been hyped to be a lot better. As Hill has pointed out and the facts bear out, Ellsbury is most certainly not "the beest leadoff hitter in the AL. In fact, with a .310 OPB v. LHP he should be platooned as he then has more value as a pinch runner and his sub-standard defense in CF is upgraded on the days that he sits. Note, Bellsbury failed to reach base by hit or walk in tonight's game. He was hit by a wild pitch and failed to advance.
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]

    you would be happy if we could bring back crisp for ellsbury and lugo for lowrie of course we all know your very stupid.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    I think I've participated in at least 50 Ellsbury is good / Ellsbury is bad threads and I end up arguing with the same guy over and over again. No mas!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL? : Cleveland leadoff hitter Michael Brantley entered Wedesday's games with an on-base percentage (.377) that was 19 points higher than Jacoby Ellsbury's. Brantley is three-and-a-half years younger than Ellsbury. Toronto leadoff hitter Yunel Escobar entered Wednesday's games with an on-base percentage of .371.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]
    Escobar has about 40 % of his abs batting 3 or 2, I skipped over him because of that, Brently is the lead hitter because of injury. Also where are you getting these numbers from MLB.Com has all three players in the 360's?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]Ellsbury is hitting 50 points higher than Pedroia but has a slightly lower OBP.  While it's true that so far Ellsbury has contributed more to the offense overall than has Pedey, ideally you want the leadoff man to have the higher OBP. Pedey will hit.  Ellsbury would help the club even more if he could boost his OBP into the .370's.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
    This is not true. Across baseball the best OBP guy is either 3 or 4.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from StatsFromLouie. Show StatsFromLouie's posts

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    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]to answer the OP'S question "is it safe to say he is better than ichiro right now?" no, it's not safe to say; actually, it's stupid to say that. awfully, awfully stupid.
    Posted by the-yazzer[/QUOTE]
    The fact is that Ellsbury is better than Ichiro RIGHT NOW. Just like how Justin Masterson is better than Jon Lester RIGHT NOW. Curtis Granderson is better than the entire Red Sox OF combined RIGHT NOW. All that matters is what has happened between the start of the season and today. Check back in a month to see if enything has changed.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Babe-Ted. Show Babe-Ted's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    It is true that the OP was wishful thinking, small sample size, and speculation but aren't you posters glad that it was? Now you can tear it apart for being homerish, inaccurate, and a pipe dream. Maybe the attackers are responding to a plant - much like a Good Cop - Bad Cop routine. The game is getting boring and entirely too predictable. It very well might be the same poster argueing with himself and the rest of us are being duped by it. Shame.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL? : The fact is that Ellsbury is better than Ichiro RIGHT NOW. Just like how Justin Masterson is better than Jon Lester RIGHT NOW. Curtis Granderson is better than the entire Red Sox OF combined RIGHT NOW. All that matters is what has happened between the start of the season and today. Check back in a month to see if enything has changed.
    Posted by StatsFromLouie[/QUOTE]
    He has better stats than Ichiro, and Ichiro is old, who would want on your team this year?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL? : Hill55, are you sure you aren't Softy's cousin when it comes to Ellsbury? You are like a fire house whenever anyone posts anything positive about Ellsbury!  That's a low blow for a quality poster like you. Sorry! It's just that you always seem to go out of your way to put Ellsbury down. I agree that often the enthusiasm here is unrealistic about Ellsbury but he is potentially an all star this year IMO. It could happen. He is trending up. For example, Crawford has been a multiple GG winner defensively in LF. Personally, I'd take Ellsbury in a heartbeat in Fenway's LF compared to Crawford. Fenway hurts a lot of guys UZR/150 data. Who wants to crash into a wall of tin all the time? They have to deal with not knowing how high up on the wall the ball will go. It's a tough decision sometimes. It affects the data. CF is very deep and Ellsbury plays deeper than normal maybe because that is where the manager wants him to play. The data indicates that the biggest problem with his UZR numbers is the short flies to CF. Playing deeper kills his defensive numbers. Ellsbury does have a proven record by now in one thing though, over the years he's played, of being a prolific, high percentage steal guy. He is definitely one of the best base stealers in baseball in the past few years, when he has actually been on the field and not injured. There are others who have put up similar numbers but 70 steals in 2009 with what 10-12 CS was great. We should at least give him his due as a tremendous base stealer on a team which is not small ball oriented. He sometimes doesn't steal simply because of the score of the game and the more HR oriented attack. He is a GREAT base stealer. We should at least give him his due in that department.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    I am a fan of Jacoby Ellsbury, who clearly has value. Nevertheless, how much value is a legitimate topic for debate. I offer no opinion on whether Ellsbury is or is not the best leadoff hitter in the American League, but I share statistics that some readers might find relevant to the issue.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL? : I am a fan of Jacoby Ellsbury, who clearly has value. Nevertheless, how much value is a legitimate topic for debate. I offer no opinion on whether Ellsbury is or is not the best leadoff hitter in the American League, but I share statistics that some readers might find relevant to the issue.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]
    Stats you made up...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Hill doesn't 'make up' numbers.
    He won't necessarily include those that won't help his argument, but nothing he states is "made-up".
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]Hill doesn't 'make up' numbers. He won't necessarily include those that won't help his argument, but nothing he states is "made-up".
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    To be precise, my statistics are rarely accompanied by an argument on my part ... I let the reader decide after considering (or disregarding) the numbers.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Yes, Hill was just setting the record straight. He has always been a keeper of the truth.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Hill55 is great. I'm a fan. But this is the first time I've heard him say anything nice about Ellsbury. He consistently pops the Ellsbury balloon. That is fine. It's his right. I'm just saying it's consistently negative in regard to Ellsbury.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    boom, this time he merely set someone straight on false numbers. That's not negativity.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Truth can come in many shades...when looking inward.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    Not to mention the misspelling of misspelling.

    Classic.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    So any time a Sox player gets hot, is there a forum rule that requires a thread be started inquiring is that player is the greatest?

    Is Tm Wakefield the best mop up man in MLB?!?!? Is Okajima the Greatest DFA!!?!

    By the way, to answer on Ellsbury - no, not the best.  And that doesn't make him a bad player, either...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zack5042. Show zack5042's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]This season Jacoby Ellsbury has stolen 13 bases and been caught stealing 4 times (the same numbers posted by Oakland leadoff hitter Coco Crisp). Elvis Andrus, who typically hits second in the Texas lineup, has stolen 13 bases without getting caught. Angel leadoff hitter Erick Aybar has stolen 10 bases without getting caught while Seattle leadoff hitter Ichiro Suzuki is 11 and 3 and Toronto's Rajai Davis 12 and 3. Hill, popularity isn't based upon facts. Bellsbury has been a fan and media darling since he was projected to be the next Ted Williams, then dropped to the next Ichiro. A player has only about 4 PA a game, and Bellsbury is one of the lowest OBP guys of the everyday Red Sox players. In contrast, a CF'er usually gets several chances a game. To most, the focus is on Bellsbury bringing his terrible beginning of the year OBP up to the .350's. Though that is hardly anything to gush about, what is ignored is how poor and passive (always plays deep) a CF defender this prima donna is. Burks is a good comparison as a top fo the lineup player who had the high OBP and speed to leadoff, hit 2nd or 3rd. He as not a popular Red Sox player, but a far, far, far superior player in talent to Ellsbury. Hands down, and it's not even close, Curtis Granderson is the best overall CF'er in baseball. After that, Adam Jones is a far better overall CF'er than Bellsbury, having the full offensive and defensive package. Michael Brantley is also a better overall CF'er than Bellsbury. What is also lost is the fact that, other than Granderson, the other CF'ers don't have the luxery of hitting in front of Pedroia and AGon. Pedroia and AGon would make any leadoff hitter look better than they actually were. Despite his current hot streak, Bellsbury is not in the top 2 on AL CF'er WAR, so he's not even the best value despite having the benefit of the CBA on contract arbitration. Bellsbury is one of the worst defensive CF'ers in baseball. His UZR and UZR 150 are near the bottom at 9th out of 12 qualifiying CF'ers with enough sample size. Though his OBP has been marginal for a scatback player, it is not his offensive game that lead me to the importance of pointing out why this player should not be extended or signed as a FA and should be traded. Ellsbury is one of the worst everyday defensive CF'ers I"ve ever seen. Because fans only love offense, and really get giddy about speed in a vacuum, they consider a player great if his offense looks good, even if his defense is terrible. I was willing to give Bellsbury time to improve his defense and OBP to a worthy scatback profile for production as an everyday player. My patience ran out last year when he and his agent milded the CBA loopholes and acted out by taking a full year off because of his 2010 demotion to LF. It was the right move, and had Cameron been healthy it would have worked out well. As I said at the time, quite loudly, the Red Sox should never even consider giving Jason Bay a long term FA contract. This was one of Theo's better decisions. I doubt Theo is unaware of what his obvious, and, though it's not needed because of the injury is the excuse for 2010, it's likely that Ellsbury is simply being showcased for his likely departure before the end of his final 2 years of arbitration. Crawford will need to return to from, but I have little doubt that he eventually will return to his career average ranges. Kalish and/or Reddick should be moved ahead of Bellsbury on future value, as it should appear obvious to Theo that shelter is needed from his terrible contract mistake on Crawford. However, even independent of that, good business would be to increase the CF value by moving Ellsbury on and promoting the best LH scatback farm hand. Though Ellsbury remains an inflated importance player in the emotions of most Red Sox fans, management and ownership will have no trouble with fan backlash if they make the decision to ship him out. Even his most emotional defenders who have been infatuated with him and personally identify with him over Crawford, most of them admit the stunt from last year was a fiasco on the character scale. Regardless, when Ellsbury's Red Sox time ends before FA, management and ownership can hang their hats on a good value decision and player and agent misconduct as palatable reasons to fans and media as the sound basis to end what amounted to an overhyped player that overshot the marketing value for said player.  There is no doubt that there is a double standard on player movement decisons in Boston, as I'm sure Ellis Burks can attest to. Nonetheless, I think the history between Boras and Ellsbury and Red Sox management and ownership is luke warm, at best.     Bottom line, said player needs to be traded before the end of the arbitration years, as it will be the correct value and future team performance needs decison. It is also worth noting that this team has had a terrible start to the season, only turning around when Buch and AGon started to regain their top form. Ellsbury is being caught stealing more frequently as teams become more familiar with him, and his splits v. LHP is declining. Very easy to make a case for platooning this player, as it allows using him as a pinch runner and pinch hitter anywhere in a late game that is close. His lefty splits and defensive liabilities are certainly a sound basis for what amounts to enhancing his skill value by bringing it off the bench against most LH starting pitching, in the form of a pinch runner for AGon, Youk, Ortiz, etc, or pinch hitter for Scutaro, Cameron, Varitek or Salty. It is a fact that being able to plug in speed on the bases for any player late in the game is more valuable than just hoping it gets on base.   A smart manager would see what is obvious, and enhance Ellsbury's value by altering his role to minimize his defensive liabilities and current struggles v. LHP and have him ready to pinch run or pinch hit late in close games. I really liked Ellsbury when he first showed up as a non-core player for a few weeks during roster expansion at the end of 2007, but it became apparent to me how poor a defender he was in CF. Pretty hard to defend a poor defending CF'er, SS or catcher, and I wasn't about to start doing that. I was not sucked into the foolish talk from the BA and OBP numbers of a few weeks in 2007. I was about the only person who wasn't sucked in.
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]
    I was too lazy to read this all. But i read about to where you were naming the better CF's. My question is if you are going to name better CF's how could you forget Sizemore? IDC if he has been injured he is still one of the best CF's in my eyes. Sizemore is one of those guys i want to go back in time and take away all his injuries just to see what he could do. He is still only 28 almost 29 but has had 3 seasons ruined by injuries :( I hope he gets better. Other than that you need to get over your grudge with Ells. What did he walk past you one day when you wanted an autograph so you gave up on him?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from StatsFromLouie. Show StatsFromLouie's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]boom, this time he merely set someone straight on false numbers. That's not negativity.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    You are blind if you can't infer the tone of his posts. He pretends to be objective, but the numbers he uses and the way he phrases his posts is more than enough to figure out his actual opinion. Not as objective as he thinks he is.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    CF can be a tough position to play in terms of injuries. After watching Kalish last year I gave him about 30 games before he would get injured and what was it 32 games in AAA? Just guessing.

    Right now I'd have to vote with Granderson.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    No, no, no.  Gardner is a way better leadoff hitter.

    Oh, wait.  Gardner is hitting .260.

    Oh, and he is not leading off.

    How's that comparison working out for all those who got all over me for expressing the opinion that I thought Ellsbury's accomplishments made him the better player, and Gardner over-hyped until proven otherwise?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    I apologize Hill. Really. You desrve better. I start getting all worked up everytime I see another Ellsbury thread because I know it will end up one bahing after another. I should just avoid them. They are such a waste of time.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury best leadoff hitter in the AL?:
    [QUOTE]BELLSBURY? how the he ll is that supposed to be funny? now if i was trying to funny up his name, i would go with PELLSBURY. because after BORA$$ gets done negotiating for JACOBY,  JAKE will be the PELLSBURY DOUGH BOY!
    Posted by the-yazzer[/QUOTE]

    It's another of the idiot's childish, schoolyard nicknames and has been reported as obscene, as it is.
     

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