Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Ellsbury started slow but I expect a big year from him and it does look like he will improve on that .330 OBP. I absolutely agree with Peter Gammon's recent comment:

    "I'm still a believer that there's a lot there that we haven't seen with him being a greater player,"
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Ellsbury is second on the team in total bases and third in rbi's.  He is third in the AL in runs scored--that's right, third.   His OPS is over .800 and 4th or 5th best on the team. 

    So, faced with those harsh realities, BaseballGM decides to go after Ellsbury's baserunning. 

    The evidence as I see it says Ellsbury couldn't have been that far off second because the opposing second baseman got a liner hit right to him and immediately threw it to the SS on 2B--and Ellsbury almost made it back or was safe.  Doubling baserunners after a line drive happens frequently in MLB.  Last night Wells got doubled off of first even though there was another Angel on second base and it wasn't a bam-bam play:  Pedroia had to run to get the liner and make the flip to Gonzalez--and Wells, a very experienced baserunner, was out by a mile. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]Ellsbury started slow but I expect a big year from him and it does look like he will improve on that .330 OBP. I absolutely agree with Peter Gammon's recent comment: "I'm still a believer that there's a lot there that we haven't seen with him being a greater player,"
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]Also a .380 OBP is far from neccesary, it would make Ellsbury a huge factor because of hi speed and rate of success stealing (+80%).

    But let's keep in mind the RS were second in the league in runs scored primary with a lead-off hitter with a .333 OBP. And the team in front of them? .340. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Boomer, it's not clear what you mean by "when."  If Ellsbury was still leaning or taking steps before he knew where the ball was going, he made a mistake.  On a line drive, you put the brakes on immediately and take at least a step back towards the bag.  Sure, you want a runner leaning or even cheating towards the next base before the ball is hit.  What counts is what you do after the ball is hit. 
    Rod was a maestro with a fungo bat. In drills, he'd put runners on base(s), and then hit line drives or ground balls or shots to the outfield with exact placement in order to teach runners how to react. 
    He also taught runners how to get a good ( sometimes a rolling ) lead and a good jump. His teams stole the pants off the opposition; stealing third was a specialty. He taught that being smart is as good if not better than being fast on the base paths. Heck, he even let us pitchers run if we thought we could swipe a bag. But we better make it.  That got the other team's attention! He hated to give up outs. In "bunt situations," he'd let a pitcher who could handle the bat go the other way instead of bunting. With infielders scrambling, those ground balls sometimes went through for hits.  He always forced the action.  But his risks were always calculated.  
    With respect to the issue in question, his golden rule was "make sure the ball goes through."  Ellsbury violated the rule.  But he's playing exceptionally well. Let's give him a mulligan.  But only one.
    FWIT, I think Drew may well be the best baserunner on the club. He doesn't make mistakes.  And ( hold on ) Varitek is pretty heady on the paths too -- if he ever gets on.  Watch, tonight Drew will get doubled off second. Ho.
    BTW, along with being a great teacher and a great psychologist, Rod had a terrific sense of humor.    
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    expitch, a simple question.  Are you saying that no baserunner should ever get doubled off a line drive caught by an infielder?  Or that it shouldn't happen when there is a baserunner ahead of you?  Either way, I think you are wrong, simply because it happens a lot.  Including Wells last night. 

    Unfortunately, I didn't tape the Ellsbury putout, but I do remember that it happened very quickly and that Ellsbury almost made it back.  Until I see a replay, I will continue to argue he wasn't that far from second to being with--but of course "that far" is a pretty loose definition. 

    To repeat my two points.  Getting doubled by line drives to infielders happens a lot in MLB.  Ellsbury had to be close to the bag, because the putout happened very quickly and he was almost safe. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ConcernTroll. Show ConcernTroll's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Max, Check your logic. You say that if something happens a lot it can't be a mistake. By that logic, a lot of things that humans do can't be mistakes because humans do a lot of it.  You're reasoning in a circle.  
    Yup, I'm saying that, say, 95% of the time there is no excuse for being doubled off on a ball hit to an infielder. I've tried to explain why I take that position and how it was taught to me by Casey Stengel via Rod Dedeaux. That's the best that I can do. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from M1A2. Show M1A2's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    I said it happens a lot to professional, major league players who "should know better."  My point is that those line drive double plays are the cost of taking a lead.  Listen to the commentators sometime, and they rarely say, "boy was that dumb," when this happens.  The only way to prevent getting doubled off a line drive is to take a very small lead. 

    Also, you ignore my other point, which is that Ellsbury had to be pretty close to 2B because he almost made it back despite it being a bam-bam play. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

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    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]I said it happens a lot to professional, major league players who "should know better."  My point is that those line drive double plays are the cost of taking a lead.  Listen to the commentators sometime, and they rarely say, "boy was that dumb," when this happens.  The only way to prevent getting doubled off a line drive is to take a very small lead.  Also, you ignore my other point, which is that Ellsbury had to be pretty close to 2B because he almost made it back despite it being a bam-bam play. 
    Posted by M1A2[/QUOTE]
    We disagree. As long as the runner does the right thing, the size of the lead doesn't matter that much -- unless it's ridiculously long.  In that case, he's risking a pickoff. These line drives do not ricochet off one fielder to another. The ball must be caught and then thrown.  
    If Ellsbury was pretty close to second, the play probably wouldn't have been that close if he'd reacted properly.  
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbev97. Show kbev97's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    But why is a "Red Sox fan" making a big deal out of a Red Sox player being picked off on such a play when it happens every day to players on the other 29 teams? I don't get it, please explain?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

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    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]But why is a "Red Sox fan" making a big deal out of a Red Sox player being picked off on such a play when it happens every day to players on the other 29 teams? I don't get it, please explain?
    Posted by kbev97[/QUOTE]

    Why interrupt a good baseball discussion with this impulsive need of yours to divide people? Does it not have the same impact as "trolling"?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    I absolutely agree with Peter Gammon's recent comment:

    "I'm still a believer that there's a lot there that we haven't seen with him being a greater player,"

    Peter is full of it. "being a greater player" infers he's already a great player. This a complete nonsense. Close game, tonight, and he does nothing about getting on base more.

    Scutaro should never have been sent with 1 out, and Cameron made a baserunning blunder. This team is a lousy baserunning team, which falls sqaurely on the ineptitude of management for not ingraining the fundamentals of baserunning. The Red Sox are frequently a bad baserunning team. Perhaps JD Drew can teach them something.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Lowrie is a butcher with a glove. Can't catch a big hop out on Wells, and lets a two hopper right at him go by with ease. Soon, his batting metrics will tumble as his months of everyday baseball increase. He will end up being sold low, not high.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]But why is a "Red Sox fan" making a big deal out of a Red Sox player being picked off on such a play when it happens every day to players on the other 29 teams? I don't get it, please explain?
    Posted by kbev97[/QUOTE]

    The words are.....CONCERN TROLL
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    if you expect a speedy runner to have a small lead, with nobody in front of him so he possibly doesnt get picked off on a line drive, is unrealistic. When the ball hits the bat, 99% of a players reflex is to lean towards the next bag. Ells DID make it back in the replay but was called out. This is really a pathetic arguement with the smell of desperation to find anything "wrong" with Ellsbury.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]if you expect a speedy runner to have a small lead, with nobody in front of him so he possibly doesnt get picked off on a line drive, is unrealistic. When the ball hits the bat, 99% of a players reflex is to lean towards the next bag. Ells DID make it back in the replay but was called out. This is really a pathetic arguement with the smell of desperation to find anything "wrong" with Ellsbury.
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]
    No one has said that a runner, speedy or otherwise, should be restricted to a small lead.  If a player is thinking ahead of time to watch for the line drive, as he should, the "reflex" you mention can be curbed and the direction reversed. 
    ( The third base coach should be yelling, "Watch the line drive." ) Players are supposed to anticipate situations and be ready to react.  If a player with a "normal lead" does this and reacts properly, he will have time almost always to beat the attempt to double him up. ( Not pick him off. That might happen if he has too big a lead. ) Two men are involved in the attempt to nail him. One catches the ball and must make the motion to throw. The other must get to the base -- maybe in a race with the runner -- and catch the ball. Both of these defensive actions take time, no matter how hard the ball it hit.  The runner actually has the advantage. He must perform a single action -- a simple one at that.
    All of this can be illustrated and taught in drills if they are run properly. In games, the correct play should be second nature, that is, "reflexive."  My coach  used to say, "If you have to think, it's too late."
    Ellsbury made a mistake on that play. Otherwise he doesn't give the ump a chance to blow the call.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position:
    [QUOTE]I absolutely agree with Peter Gammon's recent comment: "I'm still a believer that there's a lot there that we haven't seen with him being a greater player," Peter is full of it. "being a greater player" infers he's already a great player. This a complete nonsense. Close game, tonight, and he does nothing about getting on base more. Scutaro should never have been sent with 1 out, and Cameron made a baserunning blunder. This team is a lousy baserunning team, which falls sqaurely on the ineptitude of management for not ingraining the fundamentals of baserunning. The Red Sox are frequently a bad baserunning team. Perhaps JD Drew can teach them something.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]
    I agree. The Sox, in general, are not good on the base paths.  

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Cameron was being opportunistic--but the ball hit the umpire and then the Angel infielder made a great play, grabbing the ball and thowing it accurately to 3B.

    3B coach screwed up expecting Scutaro to score from first on a liner of the wall that sometimes doesn't even allow the batter to get to 2B.  Scutaro was out by a mile.  Reportedly, the 3B coach gave him the hold up sign after Scutaro went by him. 

    Anyone notice that the tying run was batted in by Ellsbury in the bottom of the 9th with a sharp single to right?  Ellsbury has scored 5 more runs than any other Red Sox player and is tied for 4th in the AL--also tied for 3d in the AL with 8 SB's.  That's to be expected.  But he is also 4th in rbi's with 15.  Right now, he and Gonzalez are the mainstays of that lineup. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    And Ellsbury is trending up.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Today 4th inning Ellsbury breaks back and then forward on a flyball that lands in front of him with two outs. It looked like he should have easily caught the ball.  Flood-gates open 3 runs follow.

    Old story but he does not have the instincts to play centerfield.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Plenty of centerfielders have trouble gauging a ball hit right at them. 

    Floodgates, my aunt fanny.  What we saw today was vintage Lackey.  He gave up 10 hits and 3 walks in four innings--and 8 runs. You want to know what opened the floodgates?  Lackey had an 0-2 count on the leadoff man and then hit with a wild pitch. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Ellsbury has a 14 game hitting streak and batted in the tying run last night with 2 men out in the 9th, and tom-uk is blaming him for Lackey's debacle today. 

    Go figure. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Look out Tom, you dare to make negative comments about the great Gold Glover CF'er, Ellsbury. The same guy that Peter says will get "greater". LOL!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    Just look at the data. In 2300 MLB innings in CF, Ellsbury has an agregate UZR/150 of -.9. He's basically an average CF statistically, even in Fenway's difficult to play CF area.

    The data indicates he has been about average over his career. Even in the supposed horrid 2009 season he was like a -10. He gets a bad rap. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Ellsbury Excelling at Leadoff Position

    The data indicates he has been about average over his career. Even in the supposed horrid 2009 season he was like a -10. He gets a bad rap. 

    I mostly agree Boom he probably is a bit below average in CF. He might be an above average LF, but there are many who don't watch the games who argue he is good in CF.  I do feel it is fair to point out he has not showed that "yet".

    Ellsbury has an incredible vertical and of course he is very fast and strong, but he does not have the instincts.  Neither does McDonald and he could have been an NFL RB.

    In spring training Johnson and Bogar were miked and they had a conversation about how the other OF do not follow Cameron's example.  They said he practices very seriously working on the fundamentals catching and throwing during BP and the young guys don't imitate him.  They thought the young guys should look at his long career and get a clue.
     

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