Ellsbury vs Gardner

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Update on this off-season debate:

    '11 WAR    BBRef     FGrs

    JE               3.6        4.3

    BG              2.8        3.0

    Gardner is a stud on D and OBP he is top 20 OF in MLB for 1.5 seasons, not bad. 

    Ellsbury is having a breakout year, to put it in perspective the best recent OF FGrs WAR for an entire season (compared to 4.3 so far for Ells):

    Drew        2.5   '10
    Drew        5.0  '09
    Bay          5.0  '09
    Ells           4.3  '08
    Crisp        4.4  '07
    Manny     3.0  '06
    Manny     3.2  '05
    Damon     4.6  '04
    Manny     6.2  '03
    Manny     5.4  '02


    Hamilton   8.7   '10
    Crawford   7.5   '10
    Gutierrez   6.3   '09
    Beltran     7.6    '08
    Ordonez    8.1   '07
    Sizemore   8.0   '06
    Bonds      11.9  '04

    We could be watching the best season by a Sox OF in a decade, maybe two!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]Update on this off-season debate: '11 WAR    BBRef     FGrs JE               3.6        4.3 BG              2.8        3.0 Gardner is a stud on D and OBP he is top 20 OF in MLB for 1.5 seasons, not bad.  Ellsbury is having a breakout year, to put it perspective the best recent OF FGrs WAR for an entire season compared to 4.3 so far: Drew         5.0  '09 Bay          5.0  '09 Ells           4.3  '08 Crisp        4.4  '07 Manny     3.0  '06 Manny     3.2  '05 Damon     4.6  '04 Manny     6.2  '03 Manny     5.4  '02 Hamilton   8.7   '10 Crawford   7.5   '10 Gutierrez   6.3   '09 Beltran     7.6    '08 Ordonez    8.1   '07 Sizemore   8.0   '06 Bonds      11.9  '04 We could be watching the best season by a Sox OF in a decade maybe two!
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Ells has become a very good hitter but he still needs to use the opposite field more in my opinion.  Without Jacoby and Papi's contribution this season we may have been struggling to stay close.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    I know today is the era of advanced metrics, but I follow the eye test on this one. Gardner is a solid player, but I'll take Ellsbury hands down. One could say Gardner is a "poor mans" Ellsbury.

    .267 4 HR, 18 RBI or .310 10 HR, 45 RBI?

    Maybe a case could be made for Gardner if he had a significant advantage in defense, baserunning, and plate discipline, but...

    Garder has 3 more walks (albeit in less PA), lower OBP (due to his low BA), 6 less steals and the same # of caught stealings. Defense is basically even.

    As I originally stated, Ellsbury hands down.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Gardner is a speedy slap hitting outfielder Ellsbury is an allstar leadoff hitter with more power
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    LOL....funny how members of the red flops fans only start these "player A vs player B" discussions when it favors the red flops. Especially since they don't even play the same position.

    Why not try a Gardner vs crawful or a Granderson vs ellsbury?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]LOL....funny how members of the red flops fans only start these "player A vs player B" discussions when it favors the red flops. Especially since they don't even play the same position. Why not try a Gardner vs crawful or a Granderson vs ellsbury?
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]
     
    Funny how (Sk)ankee fans comment on a Red sox message board.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner :   Funny how (Sk)ankee fans comment on a Red sox message board.

    Posted by TitleTown11[/QUOTE]

    How are things in Green Bay?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from eggplants. Show eggplants's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

                         The Sabermetric  Society of New England, whose services I have used in the past, has unexplainably shut down. They described themselves as, We predict the past. Sort of like this mornings newspaper with more detail. I wanted to do a little research on the Gardner/Ellsbury issue. The only relevance for me is that these two are two of the best fly ball chasers in the Show. I love watching these guys go get it. They may wear different uniforms but that doesn't diminish their performance. Truly outstanding. Good Luck to both of them.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]LOL....funny how members of the red flops fans only start these "player A vs player B" discussions when it favors the red flops. Especially since they don't even play the same position. Why not try a Gardner vs crawful or a Granderson vs ellsbury?
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]

    Hey babe, I agree, I'd take Crawford over Gardner and so too would every yank fan, if they were honest (Just go back a read some of your fellow pinestriper's comments from the offseason)...Let's just say that we like ours and you like yours and woth good reason. Granderson vs Ells not sure I'd have a problem with either both have All Star skillset's. No question that Granderson's power gives him an edge in the overall comparison. Gardner vs Crawford if you look at the back of thier baseball cards there's really not even a discussion...That's not taking anything away from Gardner. Bottom line is Crawford (His slow start aside) is an impact player with game changing skills...

    That said, Granderson who's having a career year and half and is now trending up to his credit, he reworked his swing and is now more compact, the results of which is that he cut down on his strikeouts and is no longer an auto out vs lefties without sacrificing his power stroke. When we was aquired by the Yank's and then after, all of his numbers were all treading down and many thought he was destined to be a platoon guy (sitting vs lefties). As a lefty with power, he also benefits from playing in Yankee stadium vs Tiger stadium where he had to pull the ball to get it out where at yankee stadium he doesn't have to kill it get it out in right center...

    Gardner, is the definition of "a ball player", period end of story! One who has overachieved and exceeded everyones expectations. Perhaps the best compliment I can pay the guy his he takes what God gave him (speed and athletisism), and stay's within himself, and uses those tools to his advantage, combined with a good work ethic (hustle), the kid worked hard to improved his plate disipline and earned himself an every day job in leftfield. He's a tough out and because of his speed and his abiltiy to get on base is a very good 9-hole hitter and act as another "leadoff guy" wghen the lineup turns over...That and he's "the prototypical leftfielder" playing 81 games at Yankee stadium" his speed and athletisism allows him to run down balls hit into the very spacious leftfield gap... 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Hey babe, I agree, I'd take Crawford over Gardner and so too would every yank fan, if they were honest (Just go back a read some of your fellow pinestriper's comments from the offseason)...Let's just say that we like ours and you like yours and woth good reason. Granderson vs Ells not sure I'd have a problem with either both have All Star skillset's. No question that Granderson's power gives him an edge in the overall comparison. Gardner vs Crawford if you look at the back of thier baseball cards there's really not even a discussion...That's not taking anything away from Gardner. His slow start aside, bottom line is Crawford is an impact player with game changing skills. That said, Granderson who's having a career year and half before being aquired by the Yank's and then after, saw his numbers were all treading down and many thought he was destined to be a platoon guy (sitting vs lefties), to his credit, he reworked his swing and is now more compact, the results of which is that he cut down on his strikeouts and is no longer an auto out vs lefties without sacrificing his power stroke. Gardner, is the definition of " a ball player ", period end of story! One who has overachieved and exceeded everyones expectations. Perhaps the best compliment I can pay the guy his he takes what God gave him (speed and athletisism), and stay's within himself, and uses those tools to his advantage, combined with a good work ethic (hustle), the kid worked hard to improved his plate disipline and earned himself an every day job in leftfield. He's a tough out and because of his speed and his abiltiy to get on base is a very good 9-hole hitter and act as another "leadoff guy" wghen the lineup turns over...That and he's "the prototypical leftfielder" playing 81 games at Yankee stadium" his speed and athletisism allows him to run down balls his into the very spacious leftfield gap... 

    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    The back of the cards mean nothing. Gardner has outperformed crawful this year.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : How are things in Green Bay?
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]
    I'm not sure. Southwest probably has some decent fares, take a flight over and check it out for me. Take Gardner with you.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Can't argue with the facts...let's re-look at the numbers on Oct 1st shall we.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Here we go again.  Babe is starting his cherry-picking of time frames that matter.  Less than a week ago he showed us that anything more than a week old doesn't matter, now he's tallking about (only) this year.  Which is it, Babe?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Gardner is a corner outfielder while Ellsbury is a centerfielder, though they do share similar speed wouldn't the comparison be more applicable between Granderson and Ellsbury?

     
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    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]I know today is the era of advanced metrics, but I follow the eye test on this one. Gardner is a solid player, but I'll take Ellsbury hands down. One could say Gardner is a "poor mans" Ellsbury. .267 4 HR, 18 RBI or .310 10 HR, 45 RBI? Maybe a case could be made for Gardner if he had a significant advantage in defense, baserunning, and plate discipline, but... Garder has 3 more walks (albeit in less PA), lower OBP (due to his low BA), 6 less steals and the same # of caught stealings. Defense is basically even. As I originally stated, Ellsbury hands down.
    Posted by TitleTown11[/QUOTE]

    !) Disagree here; Gardner has a better arm and is a arguably the best LFer in MLB, including Crawford. Slomag (loves RS, hates Yankees) claimed that all the Yankee GGs last yr were bogus, and the one guy who should have won was Gardner. Ellsbury is a very good OFer, (some RS fans don't like him), has a better arm than many posters here think (some say he has a lollipop arm; they're wrong)  but he's not in Gardner's class.

    2) Before this yr, it was debatable who was better, especially after Ells' apparent physical and mental issues last yr. Now, it's no longer a debate; Ells is better.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SurfinSoxFan. Show SurfinSoxFan's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : !) Disagree here; Gardner has a better arm and is a arguably the best LFer in MLB, including Crawford. Slomag (loves RS, hates Yankees) claimed that all the Yankee GGs last yr were bogus, and the one guy who should have won was Gardner. Ellsbury is a very good OFer, (some RS fans don't like him), has a better arm than many posters here think (some say he has a lollipop arm; they're wrong)  but he's not in Gardner's class. 2) Before this yr, it was debatable who was better, especially after Ells' apparent physical and mental issues last yr. Now, it's no longer a debate; Ells is better.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Gardner is the best LFer in MLB? ahhh a little to far with that one
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Gardner is the best LFer in MLB? ahhh a little to far with that one
    Posted by SurfinSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    I said arguably. Why don't you name a few better then? The only one I can think who is comparable is Crawford, except his arm is the pits. Perhaps you should check some stats and video.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : I said arguably.  Why don't you name a few better then? The only one I can think who is comparable is Crawford, except his arm is the pits. Perhaps you should check some stats and video.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Matt Holiday
    Ryan Braun
    Carlos Gonzalez
    Josh Hamilton

    Just to name a few.  Gardner is 17th in OPS among LF's with at least 100 PA's (15th with a minimum 150 PA's).  Gardner's defense certainly pushes him past some of those 15, but by no means is he even arguably the best LF in MLB.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    This is not really an argument.  Ellsbury is an emerging superstar.  Gardner is servicable starting OF, who really is a CF, because he does not hit well enough to be a starting corner OF for contending teams.  The Yanks are just getting so much production from Granderson, and other positions that it is not a big deal.  Ellsbury has already hit 10 home runs from the leadoff spot and has 45 RBI hitting first.  Gardner has 12 home runs for his whole career.  Gardner is on pace to drive in 34 runs this year.  Ellsbury already has 45!  I am still in shock that somebody on this board called Gardner a better overall player.  Said he just did not get the hype.  I think he gets plenty of hype as a Yankee.  If anything the numbers back up that that guy overhyped him.  On top of that Ellsbury OBP is almost 20 points higher this year. The projected totals for this year assuming they keep their current pace:

    Ellsbury 19 HR 85 RBI 309 BA 838 OPS 112 runs 53 SB

    Gardner  7 HR 34 RBI 267 BA 750 OPS   82 runs 42 SB

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    NHS, I'll give you that Gardner is a superior defender, but it's not by a landslide. Ellsbury takes a lot of heat for bad routes to fly balls and his arm and I think it is mostly unwarranted. He's a solid defender (7.5/10) and I would rate Gardner as a 9/10. Certainly Gardner's defense is not so superior to Ellsbury's that you could consider him the better player. Ellsbury has answered his critics this season and in fact has been on record as saying that the one thing he wanted to prove this year is that he was able to play everyday through injuries and produce. He has done that and I think that's case closed. Ellsbury and Gardner are more similar players than Ellsbury and Granderson, but I'm up for that debate, too.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    [QUOTE]NHS, I'll give you that Gardner is a superior defender, but it's not by a landslide. Ellsbury takes a lot of heat for bad routes to fly balls and his arm and I think it is mostly unwarranted. He's a solid defender (7.5/10) and I would rate Gardner as a 9/10. Certainly Gardner's defense is not so superior to Ellsbury's that you could consider him the better player. Ellsbury has answered his critics this season and in fact has been on record as saying that the one thing he wanted to prove this year is that he was able to play everyday through injuries and produce. He has done that and I think that's case closed. Ellsbury and Gardner are more similar players than Ellsbury and Granderson, but I'm up for that debate, too.

    Posted by TitleTown11[/QUOTE]

    But the bottom line is that ells and Gardner play different positions. Do you compare youk with Cano, or do you compare pedey with Cano?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner


    Possibly the biggest difference in Ellsbury's WAR value this year is his defense. If he keeps up his current pace he could well be a 6-7 WAR player and I think the only guy we had in that range last year was Beltre. Ellsbury is having a tremendous year. No question about it.

    You know what is impressing me the most this year. He's actually hitting the wall some. If that ability keeps improving he could emerge as a 30 HR, 55 double guy. Incredible. Lot's of little LH guys like Yaz, had impressive HR and double numbers in Fenway as they learned to use the wall. It could happen and then what would this guy be worth? A 7-9 WAR rating would put him into the top 2 or 3 in baseball. 

    He has around a Plus 15 WAR right now ( EDIT UZR/150, not WAR - Sorry! ). His defense is absolutely underrated.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    One thing that's been left out of this analysis is baserunning...Gardner and Ellsbury have amazing speed and baserunning physical skills, but at this point Gardner has proven to be a boneheaded basestealer, which is a shame. Like with the issues Ellsbury has had with jumps and routes, though, it's an issue that can be fixed.

    Note to those of you who have compared the two defensively: Ellsbury has played some LF, and has performed quite well there, so it's safe to say that both are similar in terms of fielding (fast, rangy, mediocre arms), with Gardner getting the edge in terms of polish with his jumps and routes. I have little doubt that Gardner would be fine in CF (though not as crazy good as he's been in LF), and that Ellsbury would be excellent in LF (though not as good as Gardner). The gaps is smaller than some have made it out to be, but it IS possible to compare these two in the field.

    To the guy who brought up Carlos Gonzalez...don't lump him with the rest of those excellent LFers you mentioned. Call me when he doesn't rely on Coors Field for his production. Magnificent talent, but he would still be a few years away if his home park weren't boosting his numbers.

    Oh, and for the love of God, don't trade Bryce Brentz as simply a piece in a deal! I've had pegged as the eventual long-term replacement for JD Drew in RF since the day we drafted Brentz, and he's showing that he could be a right-handed middle-of-the-order power hitter with enough defense to be worthwhile.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    I'd go with Els. For his size it just seems that Els can really hit a deep ball, last nights HR was a bomb
     

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