Fire Francona

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : Where was the guidance when they went down 0-3? What did you see him do during the WS sweep that contributed to or changed a potential loss into a win?? He sat and spit. He had as much to do with that sweep as the bat boy did. Do you firmly believe he ordered the Robert's steal?? It's more likely that Manny suggested it rather than Francona. 
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Haha.  Yeah, I am positive some player in the dugout called the Roberts steal.  That is extremely likely.  As far as what i saw or didn't see:  I saw a talented club not lose their nerve down 3-0 and then play great.  Sure, it is entirely possible that Francona had absolutely nothing to do with guiding the club through that.  I'll grant you that, because i really don't know the inner workings (none of us do).  But, my point remains - you can't have it both ways: if Francona is to be held responsible when the club fails, he has to be held responsible when the club succeeds.  To me, it is a bit more nuanced:  The whole organization, front office, coaches, scouts, players share in the responsibility for outcomes.  But, if people want to just destroy Francona when the club fails, they really ought to praise him when the club succeeds.  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340[/QUOTE]

    We all like to do the armchair managing thing.  As far as the early hook thing, I think he'd like to do this more than people realize, but if he did he would burn up the bullpen and we'd be even worse off.  Other managers do the exact same thing because they have to.  Check boxscores and game logs and you'll see that.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from REDSOX-11. Show REDSOX-11's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    Similar to the stuff you are posting defending this horrible field boss.


    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : AMEN.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from swandive. Show swandive's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]Francona is obviously not making use of his clairvoyant power to pull a starter at precisely the right moment before he starts getting shelled, which I would say is a dereliction of his duty. He should be fired at once, and perhaps replaced with one of the many posters here who are obviously much more proficient in this ability.
    Posted by Flapjack07[/QUOTE]

    hey, don't sell some of us posters short. just because we have a brain, doesn't mean we can't manage.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from KingOSmakk. Show KingOSmakk's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    Much as I hate to say it, FranCOMA is the only reason you have not 1 but 2 recent WS trophies.  He won't panic when most others would.

    Somehow, Theo never gets the same amount of grief.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    Dice-k gave up 6 runs on 5 consecutive hits. That gives ZERO time to even pick the phone up and call the Pen let alone give a pitcher time to warm up. And a cold relief pitcher = far more runs than Dice-k gave up. The bullpen is not some magical answer to the starting pitchings problems. If you warm up p;itchers to long they get tired and throw lazy balls over the middle. If you dont warm them up at all they can get tense leading to later injury or have no controll and walk 100 batters. Francona managed that implosion Textbook. Like any other mannager would. And trust me, implosions are the hardest things to manage especially as early as the second inning.
     Before you go blameing tito, why dont you learn something about baseball manageing or baseball for that matter. Pigheadedness overcomes logic every time on this board. Just think before you start an ignorant post like this  

    PS. if you have created a handle just to B!tch about francona, stop. There are enough posters like you already. Just read their comments and wrongly agree to yourself.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : Here's another ... Last week, Cole Hamels got shelled by the Mets. Charlie Manuel, who I have tons of respect for, stuck with him a while so he wouldn't kill the bullpen in an early-April game. Hamels never found it and gave up six runs in 2 2/3 innings. Fans always say "get him out of there" at the first sign of trouble as if there's an endless supply of relievers. You don't manage a game on April 11 the same way you do on Oct. 11.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    An example that I didn't use was a pitcher who allowed four runs in the first innign then went on to pitch four or five scoreless innings. How many of these bashers would have yanked the starter in the first?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]                        Hey Lubcom, I think you've got something there. It goes to having a "feel" for the game, an attribute he never had  in Phila. or in Boston. He can't feel the danger coming, he prays a lot. This is vintage Francona. 
    Posted by eggplants[/QUOTE]

    What's to feel?  What happened last night was an avalanche.  The Rays drove in 7 runs before Dice-K got his 4th out. 

    So, let me ask the geniuses who are using 20-20 hindsight.  At exactly what point in the first or second inning would you have pulled Matsuzaka out?  And who would have brought in from the bullpen to pitch remaining 7 or 8 innings and in what order?  Remember, Wakefield gave up 5 runs, and Wheeler gave up 4.  Would you have brought in Jenks in the 2d and let him pitch a couple innings, then do the same with Bard and then Papelbon?  Or would you go with the lesser lights and save the big three for when and if the Sox tie or go ahead?    
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]Trust me there are a few people who would go on to tell you if the sox record was 2-160 that it was the players fault they lost 160 games. This bush league manager gets a pass because he was in the right place at the right time and won a WS in 04. When a team is winning a 3 year old could manage it much like 04, but when the team needs guidance he is lost and clueless how to handle most situations. That's my take on it and the longer theo and co keep him the longer this type of gameplay will continue. In Response to Fire Francona :
    Posted by REDSOX-11[/QUOTE]
     
    Really?  There was no guidance down 3-0 to the Yankees in the ALCS, or in the world series sweep that followed?  You don't think he guided the club deftly through that?  You can't have it both ways.  You think he should be held accountable when the teams loses, and that makes sense to me.  Everyone involved is accountable.  But, if that is the case, everyone is accountable when they win too.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]Francoma defenders act as if this is the first time he let his starting pitcher implode.  Perhaps his ability to manage "idiot" prima donnas was a valuable skill set.  We don't have that crew anymore. I see a guy that doesn't manage situational baseball and is overly loyal.  Hope is not a strategy, yet hoping his guys will come through seems to be all he does. 
    Posted by Encinitas[/QUOTE]
     
    But, again, he didnt have much choice.  Dice gives up 7 runs in 2 innings.  You need time to get people warm, and no one is generally in the habit of warming in the first inning, and you probably want to hope that your guy knuckles up and can get you someinnings lest you burn your pen.  Sometimes you are between a rock and a hard place.  No one is acting like anything.  Just offering good justifications for yet another criticism levelled at FrancoNa by people who need to bone up a little on the nature of the game.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LeroyBrownn. Show LeroyBrownn's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    Can we fire Theo?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from plinny. Show plinny's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    First of all, not everybody waits until the next morning to manage from the Lazy-Boy. As soon as he brought in Wake I said to my son,"Never bring in Wakefield after the soft tossing Matsuzaka, especially to a light hitting team (remember Aaron Boone)." I prefered Aceves due to his past accomplishments with the Yankees. The game was still salvageable,but as usual, Coma threw in the Terricloth. What the hell could this game possily mean come September anyway?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340[/QUOTE]
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : Haha.  Yeah, I am positive some player in the dugout called the Roberts steal.  That is extremely likely.  As far as what i saw or didn't see:  I saw a talented club not lose their nerve down 3-0 and then play great.  Sure, it is entirely possible that Francona had absolutely nothing to do with guiding the club through that.  I'll grant you that, because i really don't know the inner workings (none of us do).  But, my point remains - you can't have it both ways: if Francona is to be held responsible when the club fails, he has to be held responsible when the club succeeds.  To me, it is a bit more nuanced:  The whole organization, front office, coaches, scouts, players share in the responsibility for outcomes.  But, if people want to just destroy Francona when the club fails, they really ought to praise him when the club succeeds.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    In most wins, the manager makes out the lineup card and watches his team beat the other team. When it's appropriate, he needs to be ready to make moves that will help the team win. When a team loses, most of the time it's because the other team beat them. There are far more times when a manager can make a move that causes his team to score a much needed run or recognizes that a pitcher is in trouble and needs to be removed before the game gets out of hand. Francona gets an C+ when the team is winning easily, but when he needs to make a move that will have a positive effect on the outcome of an in doubt  game or games, he deserves an F. He is a failure as a strategical manager. I can only deduce that he has no idea how to create a much needed run or when a pitcher is losing it or when a pitcher is having a very good game.
    His credit for the team winning is his salary, it's what he's paid to do. As I've said many times, if he were compensated for his game saving moves and fined for his poor moves or his non moves when needed, he'd be bankrupt in a month !
    All managers make poor decisions, but none make as many as Francona. His buffoonery has become an offensive weapon for the opponents, they have come to count on "The Francona Factor".
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    If you want to say Tito's having a bad year, go ahead ... a team doesn't get to be 2-9 without everyone, from the top on down, screwing up. But to say he had nothing to do with the championships in 2004 and '07 destroys any ounce of credibility you might have.

    To my old pal '41: You actually don't believe Francona gave Roberts the green light? Then tell me: If the intention wasn't to put more speed on the base paths, why'd he insert our base stealing specialist for our slowest player in the first place?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    That's a fine idea to fire Francona.Who needs a manager that only leads the team to win the World Series 33% of the time during his tenure with the team.The Sox should have won at least 7 championships during his 6 years as manager. 
       They should trade Lester too.He's pitched 3 games already and doesn't have a win.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from swandive. Show swandive's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : The Chicken Littles represent complainers and know-it-alls. If you go to any Internet forum or read the comments to online articles, you will see that most of the comments are from those types. The majority of RSN keeps their mouth shut or doesn't enjoy reading forums and comments - too much negativity. A good fan can suffer in silence. What does one gain by coming here to complain or to vent?
    Posted by silversteinsox[/QUOTE]

    well, you're definitely not a know-it-all. you're more of a know-nothing.
    the majority of RED SOX NATION can't read.
    kind of like the tea partyists.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    Francona is obviously not making use of his clairvoyant power to pull a starter at precisely the right moment before he starts getting shelled, which I would say is a dereliction of his duty. He should be fired at once, and perhaps replaced with one of the many posters here who are obviously much more proficient in this ability.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    I'd love to know who people think should replace Francona.  But before you make your suggestion, go to the message boards for the team he manages, and I guarantee that they are full of people complaining about what an idiot he is.  Mike Scioscia is often named here as a better manager than Francona (because he bunts, I think), but plenty of Angels fans think he is hopeless.  Many people in New York called Joe Torre "Clueless Joe" (almost as clever as "Francoma"). 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    TO SCOTT 8340...ACTUALLY DREW AND CAMERON AND
    SALTALAMACCHIA {there !!! I've spelled it !! ], SHOULDN'T
    EVEN BE ON A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM AT THIS POINT.. OK, I'LL
    GIVE YOU DREW....BUT JUST MARGINALLY. THAT IS THE
    ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM. FRANCONA IS A MEDIOCRE
    MANAGER WITH SOME LEGIT STARS ON THE TEAM BUT THE
    GM, EPSTEIN HAS MADE SOME TERRIBLE DEALS AND WASTED
    A LOT OF MONEY ON LACKEY AND CAMERON....ABOUT $70
    MILLION. PRAISE BE TO ALLAH THAT DREW GOES OFF THE
    BOOKS SOON. BUT THAT STILL LEAVES US WITH ELLSBURY,
    SCUTARO, SALTY, WAKE, VARITEK, ETC. ETC. ETC. AS BRYNNER
    USED TO SAY. WHEN WILL WE FINALLY REALIZE THAT SALTY
    IS A TRIPLE A CATCHER AND NOTHING MORE. WHAT IS THIS
    GREAT LOVE AFFAIR WITH HIM ?? BASICALLY THE DEALS
    THAT CASHMAN MADE [ AS MUCH AS WE SORTA HATE HIM ]
    LOOK MUCH MORE SOLID IN RETROSPECT. GRANDERSON WAS
    STOLEN FROM THE TIGERS, MARTIN FROM THE DODGERS, AND
    CHAVEZ , A GOOD BAT AND GOOD GLOVE FROM THE SCRAP
    HEAP. HE WAS INJURED BUT HE SEEMS FINE NOW. WE HAVE
    NO CREDIBLE CATCHER OR HITTING CF, RIGHT NOW. ALL WE
    HAVE IS DUSTIN, A GON, AND PAPI...THE REST OF THE TEAM IS
    JUST STANDING AROUND...AND THAT INCLUDES CRAWFORD.
    THE PITCHING IS GOOD FOR THE FIRST 3, AND THEN IT
    TRAILS OFF DRAMATICALLY. LACKEY AND DICE ARE AWFUL AND
    HAVE RAG ARMS. WE GOTTA BUY A LEGIT #4 STARTER AND IF
    WE HAVE TO TRADE ELLSBURY OR BOWDEN OR ANDERSON, LETS
    DO IT. WE PROBABLY COULDNT GET MUCH FOR THEM ANYWAY.












    [









     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Francona : I'll never understand the amount of blame Francona receives on this board.
    Posted by mikeyinthebronx[/QUOTE]

    No rational person does.  This just RSN with their Chicken Little mentality.  Quite frankly, the schtick has gotten really old. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from WinningTigerBlood. Show WinningTigerBlood's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    I cannot believe all the hate FranCOMA gets in here.

    But Theo is a Goddess?

    Unbelievable
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340[/QUOTE]

    Amen to all of that, but wait..., wait for it, here come all the Francoma apologists!!
    It's amazing to me how many people think he is a good manager. I personally happen to think he is terrible, but I admit that is just my point of view, based on the way I would manage (much more proactively than Francoma does). But to think he is a GOOD manager, c'mon. Seriously, name one thing he is particularly good at, other than oft cited but hard to measure "clubhouse chemistry", and I would even question that, given that some guys don't even look like they care any more. Honestly, I don't know what Management sees in him, although the way Management moves are going these days, they may not be in a position to throw stones!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucbom. Show lucbom's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    [QUOTE]You're all right, he's the reason Dice-K gave up seven runs in two-plus innings. And he's the reason nobody except for Pedroia is hitting. When a team is playing this poorly, in all facets of the game, there's plenty of blame to go around. Tito is part of the team, so he most definitely shares the blame. But to suggest he's THE problem is absurd.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Your right on "Lloyd"....it is all on Dice K, BUT, if many watching the game can see that Dice K is getting hammered, then why does Francona/Young still leave him in the game until he gives up 7 runs, and leaves 2 on before Francona/Young pull him.  Its almost like Francona has made a decision that it was fruitless to try and win the game, after 2 innings.  Very frustrating.
     

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