For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    When moonslav mentioned 1974 on another thread, it got me interested in that year so I was perusing some boxscores and found this one from Sept. 21 a 6-5 victory over the Baltimore Orioles. 

    Found it interesting:

    The Sox used 17 players in that game -- just one pitcher and 16 batters. 

    Jim Rice PH for Fred Lynn.

    Dwight Evans batted cleanup.

    The Sox used two third basemen, not one of them was Rico Petrocelli. Dick McAuliffe started at 3B, moved to 2B then back to 3B. Terry Hughes also played 3B.

    The Sox used three second basemen, not one of them was Doug Griffen. Burleson started at 2B them later moved to SS when Mario Guerrero was PH for. Chuck Goggin played 2B and also McAuliffe.

    Tim McCarver PH for Bob Montgomery then finished the game at catcher. For you youngsters who don't know Red Sox history very well, yes, McCarver played for the Sox briefly.

    Bill Lee pitched for the Red Sox. He had a pitching line you'll never see today. He went 10 innings and allowed five runs with no walks and one strikeout and the big stat ... he gave up 14 hits. Wonder what his pitch count was.

    The Orioles, with Earl Weaver as manager, had a more modern pitching boxscore. Jim Palmer started and went just six innings despite allowing just one run on six hits with three strikeouts and three walks. The Orioles then used three relievers.

    The Sox won the game in the bottom of the 10th. Deron Johnson singled home McCarver.

    Mark Belanger who was batting .222 at the time was the leadoff batter for the Orioles.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    One other thing:

    The Sox trailed 5-1 in the ninth an scored four runs to tie he score. Yaz drove in a run and Evans hit a three-run homer.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to royf19's comment:

    One other thing:

    The Sox trailed 5-1 in the ninth an scored four runs to tie he score. Yaz drove in a run and Evans hit a three-run homer.

     



    Reminds me of my first trip to Fenway in '67.  Sox down 5-2 in the ninth, tied it on a couple of HRs and won it 6-5 in the 10th.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    That was a brutal September for the Sox, up by 7 on Sep 1, but swooned and Baltimore took the division, with a hot streak that mirrored what this yr's Dodgers did recently.

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    My first game at Fenway was in Sept/74 against the Brewers.  Starting pitcher for the Sox was Juan Marichal.

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In 1975, the Red Sox used 12 pitchers all season. 2 of them threw 5 games between them as September callups. The staff had 62 complete games. Of the 10 main pitchers, only one did not start a game--Jim Willoughby. The most appearances by anyone on the staff was a STARTING PITCHER--Bill Lee with 41 games. Dick Drago, the closer, started twice and relieved in 38 games. Lee and Tiant each had 260 IP while Rick Wise threw 255. Where were the 30 pitchers used?, the injuries? the DL trips? the back spasms? What exactly is different today than in 1975? Why was it commonplace to complete a game? why is so impossible for a SP now to throw past 120 pitches let alone complete a game? What is the big deal about specialists? The 75 Sox won the Pennant with almost zero pitching injuries and with the same staff it started the season and ended the season with.

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

    When moonslav mentioned 1974 on another thread, it got me interested in that year so I was perusing some boxscores and found this one from Sept. 21 a 6-5 victory over the Baltimore Orioles. 

    Found it interesting:

    The Sox used 17 players in that game -- just one pitcher and 16 batters. 

    Jim Rice PH for Fred Lynn.

    Dwight Evans batted cleanup.

    The Sox used two third basemen, not one of them was Rico Petrocelli. Dick McAuliffe started at 3B, moved to 2B then back to 3B. Terry Hughes also played 3B.

    The Sox used three second basemen, not one of them was Doug Griffen. Burleson started at 2B them later moved to SS when Mario Guerrero was PH for. Chuck Goggin played 2B and also McAuliffe.

    Tim McCarver PH for Bob Montgomery then finished the game at catcher. For you youngsters who don't know Red Sox history very well, yes, McCarver played for the Sox briefly.

    Bill Lee pitched for the Red Sox. He had a pitching line you'll never see today. He went 10 innings and allowed five runs with no walks and one strikeout and the big stat ... he gave up 14 hits. Wonder what his pitch count was.

    The Orioles, with Earl Weaver as manager, had a more modern pitching boxscore. Jim Palmer started and went just six innings despite allowing just one run on six hits with three strikeouts and three walks. The Orioles then used three relievers.

    The Sox won the game in the bottom of the 10th. Deron Johnson singled home McCarver.

    Mark Belanger who was batting .222 at the time was the leadoff batter for the Orioles.




     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In 1974, Rice and Lynn saw limited action. Nobody knows what would have happened had the two 21 year olds played almost the whole season.

    1974 numbers:

     

    Lynn MLB  (51 PAs)   .419/.490/.698/1.188

                  AAA (478)   .282/.368/.489/.857

     

    Rice MLB  (75 PAs)   .269/.307/.373/.680

                  AAA (470)  .337/.391/.579/.971

     

    Tommy Harper had a .630 OPS in LF and Juan Beniquez a .670 in CF.

     

    23 year old Rick Burleson had 415 PAs in 1974 and a .693 OPS, but Mario Guerrero played more at SS and had a .564 OPS.

    Carlton Fisk was 26 and had a .934 OPS in just 216 PAs. Bob Montgomery had a .625 OPS in 277 PAs and Blackwell had a .579 OPS in 135 PAs. McCarver had only 34 PAs (.629 OPS).

    It's hard to not think we'd have done much better had Fisk not been hurt and Rice, Lynn, and Burleson played FT or near FT over the full season.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    The '74 rotation had 4 guys with ERAs under 3.75:

    2.92 Tiant  311.1 IP

    3.51 B Lee 282.1 IP

    3.48 Drago 175.2 IP

    3.74 Moret 173.1 IP

     

    Then there was...

    4.31 Cleveland 221.1

    4.87 Marichal  57.1

    3.86 R Wise     49.0

     

    The closer was Diego Segui with a 4.00 ERA, but the whole pen had WHIPs of over 1.435:

    Segui  1.435

    D Pole 1.511

    Veale   1.462

    Lance Clemons 1.895

    Sox4ever

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In 1974, Rice and Lynn saw limited action. Nobody knows what would have happened had the two 21 year olds played almost the whole season.

    1974 numbers:

     

    Lynn MLB  (51 PAs)   .419/.490/.698/1.188

                  AAA (478)   .282/.368/.489/.857

     

    Rice MLB  (75 PAs)   .269/.307/.373/.680

                  AAA (470)  .337/.391/.579/.971

     

    Tommy Harper had a .630 OPS in LF and Juan Beniquez a .670 in CF.

     

    23 year old Rick Burleson had 415 PAs in 1974 and a .693 OPS, but Mario Guerrero played more at SS and had a .564 OPS.

    Carlton Fisk was 26 and had a .934 OPS in just 216 PAs. Bob Montgomery had a .625 OPS in 277 PAs and Blackwell had a .579 OPS in 135 PAs. McCarver had only 34 PAs (.629 OPS).

    It's hard to not think we'd have done much better had Fisk not been hurt and Rice, Lynn, and Burleson played FT or near FT over the full season.

     

    Sox4ever



    Of course, it should be noted that the Sox were in 1st place by five games on Aug. 29 (17-10 in August at that point) before losing the final two games of the month to be up by three.

    Rice played in 24 of the final 31 and Lynn in 15 of the final 31 when the Sox went 12-19 and finiished seven back. Maybe if Lynn was brought up earlier in Sept. it might have helped. But it's unfair to say had they played the entire season.

    Going into 1974, Rice, who was 21, had just 10 games, 40 PA at Triple-A. Lynn, who was 22,  had just 53 minor league games, none in Triple-A, and 201 plate appearances. So you can't really say they should have been up that much earlier, especially at the beginning of the season.

    And you need to add more than Harper and Beniquez when talking about the LF and CF. Yaz played more games in LF than Harper. There was a lot of shuffling in the OF. In fact, neither played even 100 games total in the OF, let alone at one position. Only Miller and Evans played ast least 100 games in the OF and only Evans had at least 100 at one position.

    Games played by OF:

    Yaz 63 LF
    Harper 61 LF
    Beniquez 91 CF, 7 LF
    Miller 77 CF, 21 LF, 7 RF
    Carbo 56 RF, 33 LF
    Evans 120 RF, 3 CF, 1 LF
    Rice 3 LF
    Lynn 6 LF, 4 CF, 2 RF

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    And DAD & BILL-806 were practicing  G M's way back then too !!!!   We just didn't have Al Gores internet to help the Sox out as much as we do now !!!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    In 1975, the Red Sox used 12 pitchers all season. 2 of them threw 5 games between them as September callups. The staff had 62 complete games. Of the 10 main pitchers, only one did not start a game--Jim Willoughby. The most appearances by anyone on the staff was a STARTING PITCHER--Bill Lee with 41 games. Dick Drago, the closer, started twice and relieved in 38 games. Lee and Tiant each had 260 IP while Rick Wise threw 255. Where were the 30 pitchers used?, the injuries? the DL trips? the back spasms? What exactly is different today than in 1975? Why was it commonplace to complete a game? why is so impossible for a SP now to throw past 120 pitches let alone complete a game? What is the big deal about specialists? The 75 Sox won the Pennant with almost zero pitching injuries and with the same staff it started the season and ended the season with.

     

     

    I'm not sure they threw as many pitches back then.  I blame the lack of complete games and high pitch counts on a postage stamp sized strike zone.




     

     




     

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ANONMD08. Show ANONMD08's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    That was a brutal September for the Sox, up by 7 on Sep 1, but swooned and Baltimore took the division, with a hot streak that mirrored what this yr's Dodgers did recently.




    I remember this season well. The sox were up by 7 games on August 23rd and then went into a tail spin after that date losing 8 straight from august 30th to sept 6th. history has a strange way of repeating itself.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    In 1975, the Red Sox used 12 pitchers all season. 2 of them threw 5 games between them as September callups. The staff had 62 complete games. Of the 10 main pitchers, only one did not start a game--Jim Willoughby. The most appearances by anyone on the staff was a STARTING PITCHER--Bill Lee with 41 games. Dick Drago, the closer, started twice and relieved in 38 games. Lee and Tiant each had 260 IP while Rick Wise threw 255. Where were the 30 pitchers used?, the injuries? the DL trips? the back spasms? What exactly is different today than in 1975? Why was it commonplace to complete a game? why is so impossible for a SP now to throw past 120 pitches let alone complete a game? What is the big deal about specialists? The 75 Sox won the Pennant with almost zero pitching injuries and with the same staff it started the season and ended the season with.

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    When moonslav mentioned 1974 on another thread, it got me interested in that year so I was perusing some boxscores and found this one from Sept. 21 a 6-5 victory over the Baltimore Orioles. 

    Found it interesting:

    The Sox used 17 players in that game -- just one pitcher and 16 batters. 

    Jim Rice PH for Fred Lynn.

    Dwight Evans batted cleanup.

    The Sox used two third basemen, not one of them was Rico Petrocelli. Dick McAuliffe started at 3B, moved to 2B then back to 3B. Terry Hughes also played 3B.

    The Sox used three second basemen, not one of them was Doug Griffen. Burleson started at 2B them later moved to SS when Mario Guerrero was PH for. Chuck Goggin played 2B and also McAuliffe.

    Tim McCarver PH for Bob Montgomery then finished the game at catcher. For you youngsters who don't know Red Sox history very well, yes, McCarver played for the Sox briefly.

    Bill Lee pitched for the Red Sox. He had a pitching line you'll never see today. He went 10 innings and allowed five runs with no walks and one strikeout and the big stat ... he gave up 14 hits. Wonder what his pitch count was.

    The Orioles, with Earl Weaver as manager, had a more modern pitching boxscore. Jim Palmer started and went just six innings despite allowing just one run on six hits with three strikeouts and three walks. The Orioles then used three relievers.

    The Sox won the game in the bottom of the 10th. Deron Johnson singled home McCarver.

    Mark Belanger who was batting .222 at the time was the leadoff batter for the Orioles.

     




     

    [/QUOTE]

    The game was different back then.  It happens in all sports.

     

    In 1943, Sammy Baugh lead the NFL in passing yards, interceptions ( as  DB, not a QB) and punting average.  Nowadays, you never see football players on offense and defense, let alone special teams...

     

     

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    1974 was an exciting year to be a young Sox Fan....not because we won anything but because like this year there were so many up and coming young players, the future looked bright(of course back them, we didnt seem to worry about pitching).....Dewey was 22...Rice was was 21, Lynn was 22, Cecil Cooper was 24, Burleson was 23, Juan Beniquez was 24, Fisk 26, Griffin 27 and Rick Miller was 26...the pitching was older, but Moret was only 24.....I didnt think about it then, but you have to wonder what a healthy 29 year old Tony C would have meant to that Organization in the early and Mid 1970's. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    It is interesting how many position players players the Sox used in 1974.

    For instance, in 1973, the Sox had 10 players play at least 100 games. The next three were 67, 66 and 63. And they used just 17 players total with Buddy Hunter playing the least 13.

    In 1974, they also had 10 players play at least 100 games but had two players at 93 games, one at 88 and they used 24 players total, only two in double digits. As I showed in the earlier post, the OF was mix-and-match all year. 

    In 1975, just nine players played 100 or more games (and Doyle was the next highest at 89. Fisk just 79. The Sox used 25 position players, but eight played 12 or less, including six at three or less.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    I was at a 1975 Sox game in which Tony Conigliaro pinch hit for Fred Lynn after Lynn K'd three times v. Frank Tanana. Remember he won the MVP/Rookie of The Year...that in itself shows you how the game has changed. If you are prize prospect today, there's no way you get pinch-hit for ever. But then, managers managed games one at a time, and didn't care about feelings of players or worried about changing something up based on the way a batter looked v. a certain pitcher. It was early in the season, but I still think it's great trivia that a MVP of a particular season was actually pinch hit for due to poor performance. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    roy, there was a time where if you were backup, you were really a backup. today, everyone on the roster gets to be used constantly.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    roy, there was a time where if you were backup, you were really a backup. today, everyone on the roster gets to be used constantly.



    I don't think that's true. It's flexible year to year with teams, depending on who is on the team. Look at 1974 and the way the OF spots were divied up. Only one starter played more than 100 games at the same position. The 1974 is at odds with your statement because Darrell Johnson used a lot of players in a lot of games.

    In fact, in 1974, Yaz played in 148 games. The next-highest was Evans at 133 then Rico at 129. They had nine players btween 93 and 118 and also Montgomer at 88 games.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    maybe the Sox, but there were a lot of teams where backups were just rotting out there. Look at the one year where I believe it was Roger LaFrancois was on the Sox big league roster an entire season and barely played in 82. Then you have 1982 itself. Evans 162 games, Hoffman 150, Stapleton 150, Remy 155, Rice 145, Miller 135

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    1986 Sox...Rice 157, Baylor 160, Barrett 158, Buckner 153, Evans 152, Boggs 149 (was hurt briefly), Gedman 135

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    I was at a 1975 Sox game in which Tony Conigliaro pinch hit for Fred Lynn after Lynn K'd three times v. Frank Tanana. Remember he won the MVP/Rookie of The Year...that in itself shows you how the game has changed. If you are prize prospect today, there's no way you get pinch-hit for ever. But then, managers managed games one at a time, and didn't care about feelings of players or worried about changing something up based on the way a batter looked v. a certain pitcher. It was early in the season, but I still think it's great trivia that a MVP of a particular season was actually pinch hit for due to poor performance. 



    A couple of points. A manager pinch-hitting for a rookie -- even a prized prospect -- is done today too, especially early in the season before the rookie has proven himself. Lynn was PH in May as you say, after striking three times. He was hitting .343 at the time but harldy proved himself or reached a piont where you wouldn't pinch-hit him for. That's hardly some huge exception to what is done today. Managing has changed but not on this.

    Holding Darrell Johnson up as an example of good managing is a stretch. If posters are hammering Francona and Farrell today, I can just imagine what this board would be like if it were back then with Johnson managing.

    Just focusing on today's game is hardly good managing. Managers today might baby starters and burn out bullpens. Back then -- and Johnson was as bad as any manager -- managers burned out starting pitchers.

    And "not caring about players' feelings" is such an overused cliche that is used today. But still -- being an a -- hole and treating players like garbage is hardly good managing. Good managing is getting the most out of your players and that is accomplished in different ways in different generations.

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    1974 Dodgers, Garvey 156, Russell 160, Cey 159, Wynn 150, Lopes 145, Buckner 145, Crawford 139, the only real platoon was catcher Ferguson and Yeager

     
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    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    Trout was pinch hit for? Hamilton? Really? Wow

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: For History Buffs: Interesting Boxscore from 1974

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    1986 Sox...Rice 157, Baylor 160, Barrett 158, Buckner 153, Evans 152, Boggs 149 (was hurt briefly), Gedman 135



    Again, you can look at many teams from year to year and find some years where starters were locked in other years where there were more mixing and matching.

    2004 -- seven players 136 games or more -- four 150 or more.

    2005 -- seven players 133 or more -- five 148 or more.

    2007 -- just one player more than 150 games. Manny barely played in Sept. or he would have been two. Ortiz at 149. Tek played 131 games and the other eight starters played 133 or more, including six 140 or more.

    Seems similar to your examples of 1982 and 1986.

    And in 1973, only six players played 132 or more games, only one 150 or more and just three more at 140 or more.

     

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