Free Agents vs. Farm Players

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    Given the make-up of the teams still alive in the ALCS one has to wonder about the wisdom of building a team of Free Agents.  The Sox and the Yanks, with two of the highest payrolls in baseball are playing golf while the Tigers and Rangers move on. 

    At some point a team has to make a choice as to whether to go the FA route or the farm player route.  They Sox and Y's have both opted for the FA route and they're both at home now while the Tiggers and Rangers, for the most part built without FA's are still alive.  (and yes, there are a couple of exceptions, but c'mon!)
    And it's not going to be all that easy for the Sox and Yanks to change routes if they wanted to.  Both teams are tied up with long-term FA contracts and the players who own those contracts, and getting rid of them will be next to impossible, so are they stuck with the FA format?  In addition to that they're now bound by the precedent of paying big bucks to anyone they covet, so any player those two teams want will be holding out for more because, "Crawford's/Granderson's getting it so why shouldn't I". 

    A reality check may be in order for those two teams and for players in general, but it's going to be a long few seasons for those teams who choose to abandon free agents to go back to the farm system mode while they rid themselves of the FA's.   

    Bill James said a long time ago in one of his Baseball Abstracts that Free Agency would be a boon to any team that knew how to handle it wisely, e.g. using a free agent to fill a hole on a roster, but teams that try to build a competitive team through free agents will be making a mistake.  (IIRC he didn't elaborate on why he thought that).

    That whole train of thought is ironic, given the team he's now working for.  I seriously wonder how he feels about that statement now.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    IMO, RS and Yankees always need bigs names in the lineup or in the rotation just to satisfy the crazy fans.  That's what Sox and Yanks fans want.  They don't have time to wait for top-of-the-line prospects to come up and spend at least 2 yrs to get used to big league.  That's why Sox and Yanks trade away their prospects for big names already playing in the major.  They need immediate impact all the time..
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    Well, 3 of the Tigers' best hitters are Victor Martinez, Austin Jackson and Miguel Cabrera. They got Victor as a FA, and Jackson and Cabrera came in trades. That being said I like the idea of building through the farm system. Look at the Red Sox now. Who are our best players? Ells, Pedey, Youk (when healthy), Gonzo. 3 developed by the Sox, and one acquired via trade. Our best pitchers are Beckett, Lester, Buch, Bard and Papelbon, only one of which weren't developed by the Sox. Speaking nostalgically, most of my favorite Red Sox were guys who came up through the farm system, guys like Yaz, Rice, Lynn, Fisk, Evans, Nomar, Bob Stanley and Bruce Hurst. Heck, even Roger Clemens came up through the Red Sox farm system. In general I think the Red Sox do a pretty good job of identifying and developing talent. The farm system looks a little thin right now, but we kind of emptied it to acquire Adrian Gonzalez. Where I think they fall down a little bit is when they seem to fall in love with a guy who is a free agent and overpay for him.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    Build through the farm system is a very cost effective way to go that will have valleys and peaks. FA is way to delay the valley but has higher risks. In the AL no there aren't any teams left that could be said to have built primarily one way or the other. And if the DBacks do not not adavance there won't be any teams bulit primarily from the farm.

    It is an exaggeration to say either the RS or NYY have built primarily from FA. They spend more because they make more.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    Cabrera makes $20 mil, Ordonez makes $10 mil, Verander makes $13 mil,

    Beltre makes $14 mil, Josh Hamilton makes $8.5 mil, Young makes $16.5 mil

    It's not like Texas and Detroit don't have high priced talent.

    Teams that have a lot of home grown talent are good now because they were so bad for so long in the past that they got high draft picks.  And when a team gets into contention, they start having to trade away draft picks to fill out the roster and push them over the top.

    A team with few free agents can occassional rise to the top and may even spend a few year there.  But teams like the red sox and yankees have been good for a long time.

    7 of the last 11 WS have been won by teams whose payrolls rank in the top 5.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In comparison to the rest of their respective divisions the Tigers and Rangers spend an adequate amount.  The Tigers are over 100 million and I think are second to the Chisox in the Central but only 20 million short of them.  Texas is right around 100 million too, obviously short of the LAA but not nearly in the same way the Rays are behind the Sox and Yanks.

    Both teams have built wisely through a combination of star power, smart FA/trade moves and with homegrown talent.

    Before we praise the Texas organization too much, lets remember that last year they were bankrupt and the rest of MLB literally payed all of the Rangers bills. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]Given the make-up of the teams still alive in the ALCS one has to wonder about the wisdom of building a team of Free Agents.  The Sox and the Yanks, with two of the highest payrolls in baseball are playing golf while the Tigers and Rangers move on.  At some point a team has to make a choice as to whether to go the FA route or the farm player route.  They Sox and Y's have both opted for the FA route and they're both at home now while the Tiggers and Rangers, for the most part built without FA's are still alive.  (and yes, there are a couple of exceptions, but c'mon!) And it's not going to be all that easy for the Sox and Yanks to change routes if they wanted to.  Both teams are tied up with long-term FA contracts and the players who own those contracts, and getting rid of them will be next to impossible, so are they stuck with the FA format?  In addition to that they're now bound by the precedent of paying big bucks to anyone they covet, so any player those two teams want will be holding out for more because, "Crawford's/Granderson's getting it so why shouldn't I".  A reality check may be in order for those two teams and for players in general, but it's going to be a long few seasons for those teams who choose to abandon free agents to go back to the farm system mode while they rid themselves of the FA's.    Bill James said a long time ago in one of his Baseball Abstracts that Free Agency would be a boon to any team that knew how to handle it wisely, e.g. using a free agent to fill a hole on a roster, but teams that try to build a competitive team through free agents will be making a mistake.  (IIRC he didn't elaborate on why he thought that). That whole train of thought is ironic, given the team he's now working for.  I seriously wonder how he feels about that statement now.
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    We can start to fix that by starting Lavarnway behind the plate, and Iglesias at SS in 2012. "C'mon, let the kids play" (who said that, and from what movie?)
    No cheating.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Free Agents vs. Farm Players : We can start to fix that by starting Lavarnway behind the plate, and Iglesias at SS in 2012. "C'mon, let the kids play" (who said that, and from what movie?) No cheating.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]Agreed on Lavarnaway. I'd like to see Iglesias spend some more time at Pawtucket to see if he can develop some plate discipline.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    I just did a look see at the Yanks starting lineup for that last Tiger game and it is quite surprising... 

    Jeter - home grown
    Granderson - trade
    Cano - home grown
    ARoid - FA
    Tex - FA
    Swisher - trade
    Posada DH - home grown
    Martin - FA

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]I just did a look see at the Yanks starting lineup for that last Tiger game and it is quite surprising...  Jeter - home grown Granderson - trade Cano - home grown ARoid - FA Tex - FA Swisher - trade Posada DH - home grown Martin - FA
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]There you go. Myth vs. reality. Both the Yankees and Red Sox, for all the money they spend, feature home grown players prominently.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players : There you go. Myth vs. reality. Both the Yankees and Red Sox, for all the money they spend, feature home grown players prominently.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]Just to add to that thought, A-Rod was a trade that opted out of his contract after 2007 and was resigned by NY.

    There are no perfect models in MLB. Look at the Twins who tow years ago everybody thought were the model. Since the orginal cast of "Moneyball" has left Beane never really had a sequel.

    It is a tough business no matter how much you spend.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]Given the make-up of the teams still alive in the ALCS one has to wonder about the wisdom of building a team of Free Agents.  The Sox and the Yanks, with two of the highest payrolls in baseball are playing golf while the Tigers and Rangers move on.  At some point a team has to make a choice as to whether to go the FA route or the farm player route.  They Sox and Y's have both opted for the FA route and they're both at home now while the Tiggers and Rangers, for the most part built without FA's are still alive.  (and yes, there are a couple of exceptions, but c'mon!) And it's not going to be all that easy for the Sox and Yanks to change routes if they wanted to.  Both teams are tied up with long-term FA contracts and the players who own those contracts, and getting rid of them will be next to impossible, so are they stuck with the FA format?  In addition to that they're now bound by the precedent of paying big bucks to anyone they covet, so any player those two teams want will be holding out for more because, "Crawford's/Granderson's getting it so why shouldn't I".  A reality check may be in order for those two teams and for players in general, but it's going to be a long few seasons for those teams who choose to abandon free agents to go back to the farm system mode while they rid themselves of the FA's.    Bill James said a long time ago in one of his Baseball Abstracts that Free Agency would be a boon to any team that knew how to handle it wisely, e.g. using a free agent to fill a hole on a roster, but teams that try to build a competitive team through free agents will be making a mistake.  (IIRC he didn't elaborate on why he thought that). That whole train of thought is ironic, given the team he's now working for.  I seriously wonder how he feels about that statement now.
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    Not sure that you can paint the entire issue with one broad stroke...

    It's not a case of chosing either/or but rather how well you utelize all of the avenues at your disposal to build rosters. There are also differing levels of FA...

    Building through the farm can manifest itself in many differing ways. the obviuos is to promote players that you've drafted and having them blossom into imact player at the big league level...the other is to provide your team with depth to help replace injured players and under performance...More often than not the best use of the farm is to help bolster the team by developing tradable commodities and then using them to strengthen a fatal flaw....A good example of "trading prospects for proven commidities" would be the yanks who have for years used this strategy...The aquisition of Granderson for Jackson (a trade that also netted them Scherzer). Swisher from the White Sox is another...

    This past year the Tigers and Rangers traded away a lot of top tier talant in the quest to compete in the now...interestingly the Rays, Yanks and Sox all stood pat....

    The Tigers are probably the case study for building a team in the new millinium...If you lok at how they built thier current roster the only real impact players that were "homegrown" are Verlander and Avila...Scherzer & Fister both were aquired via trades and the backend of thier pen Cook, Valverde and Benoit all were either FA or auqired via trade route. Thier lineup is full of mongrals with Jackson, Peralta, Young and Cabrera all being aquired by trade and Martinez via FA route...Only Avilla thier cathcer is an impact player that came through their system...the rest are role players at best...

    However the Tigers farm system did play a large role in helping them to aquire most to the guys above and will likely suffer in the next few year while it rebuilds itself...So what is seen today as positive can quckly be seen as a negetive in two years when the well is dry and thiers a need...

    The Red Sox once were among the best organizations in baseball but today have as derth of ready for the big league talant in thier system...After dealing 6 top prospect in two years, not to mention the unfortunate illness that befell young Westmorland and then natural attrition of guys leveling off and not reaching expectations. The Yankees on the other hand, have what appears to be two or three very tradeable projectable commodities and will likely use those chips to bolster their 2012 roster via trades or perhap they might even let Montero DH...Farm systems are cyclical by nature so what comes up must come down....

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    Why is a free agent signing from within the organization different from a free agent signing for outside the organization?  A FA is a FA.

    Is AGON seen as a trade or a free agent signing.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    In Response to Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players:
    [QUOTE]Why is a free agent signing from within the organization different from a free agent signing for outside the organization?  A FA is a FA. Is AGON seen as a trade or a free agent signing.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]Depends on the trade I suppose. Alex Rodriguez was definitely a trade. He played for the NYY from 2004 - 2007 with an existing contract. The NYY gave up value in Soriano to get him and the Rangers were paying part of the bill.  One can certainly argue that A-Gon is a grayer area.

    As far as the difference between retaining your own players once you lose arbitration control and signing somebody elses, it is a different factor. One is a retention decision, the other is an addition decision.

    All contracts for players who are FA eligible have risks. Ask the Twins how much value they got Mauer and Morneau. $37M for 7 HRs in 151 combined games played. Both were extensions by a team that was regarded as amongst the smartest guys in the room as late as last fall and finished in last place in a very winnable division.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Free Agents vs. Farm Players

    THIS is why I read (and occasionally post on) BDC.  I have these sometimes half-baked thoughts and I like to throw them out there to see what others think about them.  Often times, like today, there were some great, well thought out responses from some very knowledgeable people.

    Thanks!
     

Share