good read on the collapse

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    good read on the collapse

    didnt know about some of this stuff 

    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    Wakefield also was part of the problem. Amid a seemingly interminable quest for his 200th career victory, he went 1-2 with a 5.25 ERA in September, taxing the bullpen as the Sox lost four of his five starts. The 45-year-old knuckleballer then appeared more interested in himself than the team when he asserted in the final days of the season that the Sox should bring him back in 2012 to pursue the franchise’s all-time record for wins (shared by Roger Clemens and Cy Young at 192).

    “I think the fans deserve an opportunity to watch me chase that record,’’ Wakefield told Fox Sports, raising eyebrows on Yawkey Way.

    Very important that the veteran players who performed poorly in 2011 (and were part of the performance problem in September collapse) and not under contract for 2012 not be offered a FA contract. Ortiz OBP was almost .400 for September, but his SLG was terrible because Youk's injury allowed teams to pitch around Ortiz and get to the likes of Mac, Aviles and Lowrie.

    Since Ortiz 2011 production was consistent with 2009 and 2010 season long production, as a one year contract, he should be offered a one year deal around current 2011 base (less if market rate is less) and a mutual option for 2013 at about 6M. If Ortiz lasts 2 years, that would be about 4 to 6M over market, or one year would be about 7 or 8 over market, which amounts to his thank you for service golden parachute to retirement. But if at anytime Ortiz is not producing at an acceptable league level, he should be released if he agrees to retire or if not he should be traded for whatever scrap he would net.

    Under no condition should Varitek and Wakefield be offered FA contracts. There is zero MLB guaranteed contract market for a reason, and these 40 plus selfish hang on parasites will get nothing more than minor league or major league minimum deals that allow teams to simply spend little and release them as need be. They are both the Paul Byrd and Moyer type of profiles who can be picked up for mop-up duty at anytime. 

    Red Sox need new face of leadership that starts by cleaning up the retirement clubhouse and making certain that non-producing veterans not squat on a bench and infect the clubhouse for another entitlement ceremonial season tour. 

    Backup roles need to go to more capable youth or veterans who are still performing at a solid MLB league overall athletic skill level. Varitek and Wakefield are the antithesis of professional athletes. They have been retired in MLB performance levels for years and heading towards 50 does not mean they get better. 

    Other veteran problems under multi-year contracts need to be evaluated over winter market to summer and effort should be made to trade these problems for anything reasonable in return value and fit. 

    The clubhouse changes when the old veteran poor performers not under contract are shown the door and the other problems are traded whenever possible for fair value and fit return. Crawford is a problem that no team is going to offer fair value and fit return. Ellsbury is seeking year to year contracts to FA and was one of the clubhouse problems over 2008 to 2011. His 2011 career season was a fluke and a windfall that should be traded to another large media market. His 2011 performance and 6 to 8M annual cost for the next 2 years and likely draft compensation of some type upon year 3 is going to be attractive to large NL markets like LA.

    Youk is in final contract year and has little trade value and should be retained for final season. Middlebrooks should not be traded and will likely be adequate 3B/DH by 2013.

    Lowrie should be shown the door with Ellsbury, as 2 clubhouse islands who have been losers in performance and leadership over 2008 to 2011. 

    But most important move is to discard Epstein and replace all pitching management and development hire level position coaches.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    It looks like Beckett and Lester were two of the problematic people in the clubhouse. I'm somewhat surprised about Lester. I guess it just goes to show you never really know someone based on outside appearances. Depending on just how divisive and destructive their behavior was, I would consider trading one or both (preferably Beckett) in a quasi-salary dump and using the money saved to sign an ace like Sabathia. The teams that lose out on Sabathia and CJ Wilson will give up a lot for Beckett. That could be the solution to RF and RP.

    Sample deal #1: SP Josh Beckett, RP Bobby Jenks, and 2B Jed Lowrie to Kansas City for OF Jeff Francoeur, RHP Joakim Soria, RHP Greg Holland, and Massachusetts native LHP Tim Collins. Work the finances out so that the Royals take on $10 million in the exchange. (Earlier in the season the Globe claimed the Royals want to add a frontline starting pitcher and can add payroll).

    2. Sign Sabathia for 6 years/$144 million. That's $24 million a year.

    3. Re-sign Bedard for 1 year incentive-laden deal.

    CF Ellsbury
    2B Pedroia
    1B Gonzalez
    DH Youkilis
    RF Francoeur/Reddick/Kalish
    C Saltalamachhia/Lavarnway
    LF Crawford
    3B Aviles/Middlebrooks
    SS Scutaro/Iglesias

    Note: (a) Francoeur starts vs. LHP and some righthanders; Reddick starts vs. RHP, (b) Kalish starts once a week subbing for Crawford and appears as a defensive replacement and/or pinch-runner in many of the other games, (c) Aviles and Middlebrooks have about a 50/50 split in starts until one or the other clearly wins the position, (d) Iglesias starts once a week until he starts to hit.

    SP Sabathia
    SP Lester
    SP Buchholz
    SP Bedard
    SP Lackey

    RP Soria
    RP Holland
    RP Collins
    RP Bard
    RP Aceves
    RP Miller (definitely not as a starter)
    RP Wakefield (in limited innings only!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    Timmy T-Ball on your roster shows you have zero credibility.

    No way the Red Sox sign CC as a FA, and it would be a terrible move for a fat high mileage arm if they did. CC will resign with Yankees or head to big Left Coast market.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from cpjohn1. Show cpjohn1's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    Beckett or Lester need to go.  I would probably keep Beckett because he's the better pitcher.  Lester chokes too much for my liking.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    In Response to Re: good read on the collapse:
    [QUOTE]It looks like Beckett and Lester were two of the problematic people in the clubhouse. I'm somewhat surprised about Lester. I guess it just goes to show you never really know someone based on outside appearances. Depending on just how divisive and destructive their behavior was, I would consider trading one or both (preferably Beckett) in a quasi-salary dump and using the money saved to sign an ace like Sabathia. The teams that lose out on Sabathia and CJ Wilson will give up a lot for Beckett. That could be the solution to RF and RP. Sample deal #1: SP Josh Beckett, RP Bobby Jenks, and 2B Jed Lowrie to Kansas City for OF Jeff Francoeur, RHP Joakim Soria, RHP Greg Holland, and Massachusetts native LHP Tim Collins. Work the finances out so that the Royals take on $10 million in the exchange. (Earlier in the season the Globe claimed the Royals want to add a frontline starting pitcher and can add payroll). 2. Sign Sabathia for 6 years/$144 million. That's $24 million a year. 3. Re-sign Bedard for 1 year incentive-laden deal. CF Ellsbury 2B Pedroia 1B Gonzalez DH Youkilis RF Francoeur/Reddick/Kalish C Saltalamachhia/Lavarnway LF Crawford 3B Aviles/Middlebrooks SS Scutaro/Iglesias Note: (a) Francoeur starts vs. LHP and some righthanders; Reddick starts vs. RHP, (b) Kalish starts once a week subbing for Crawford and appears as a defensive replacement and/or pinch-runner in many of the other games, (c) Aviles and Middlebrooks have about a 50/50 split in starts until one or the other clearly wins the position, (d) Iglesias starts once a week until he starts to hit. SP Sabathia SP Lester SP Buchholz SP Bedard SP Lackey RP Soria RP Holland RP Collins RP Bard RP Aceves RP Miller (definitely not as a starter) RP Wakefield (in limited innings only!
    Posted by davidap[/QUOTE]

    I like many of your proposed trades, but it would be difficult to trade that many players.  Although, I do believe that some of these players could be traded.  Many of us probably would like to see many of the current Red Sox players traded, but it is unrealistic to believe that this will happen. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    The more I hear about the stuff that went on, the more I blame Francona for losing control and allowing this kind of behavior to go on.
    I've posted many times that the inmates run the asylum on this team, as Francona lacks the ability to impose any kind of discipline, mostly for fear of becoming disliked.
    I'm sorry but you cannot be an effective manager if you're freinds with the players.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    In Response to Re: good read on the collapse:
    [QUOTE]The more I hear about the stuff that went on, the more I blame Francona for losing control and allowing this kind of behavior to go on. I've posted many times that the inmates run the asylum on this team, as Francona lacks the ability to impose any kind of discipline, mostly for fear of becoming disliked. I'm sorry but you cannot be an effective manager if you're freinds with the players.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]ike, in a way i agree, but at what point do the players stop and say..maybe i'm part of the problem here...yes, the manager should maintain control... i get that everyone has stuff going on in their lives, but IMO a player's professional pride should remain in the forefront..you're not just shortchanging yourself, you are hanging your manager and teammates out there..
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    It all comes down to  lack of leadership. You have a general manager, manager , bench coach , pitching coach , conditioning coach and several other coaches who are paid to provide the leadership and discipline required to control these spoiled rotten athletes.  They obviously failed to do this. There is no other way to look at it. I have no doubt that the handful of players who stayed in shape and played hard, deeply resented what was going on , and wondered why it was permitted. However , it is not their job to speak out and alienate their teammates. That is up to management.  What is so hard about a manager or bench coach walking into the clubhouse and ordering the players to return to the bench? It is weakness and cowardice , and cannot be tolerated.  A thorough house cleaning is needed. Get rid of the failed " leaders " , and the trouble making players.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    dg, 100% correct!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    why wasnt it obvious to more than just a few people that this team was rudderless, indifferent, and out of shape....they say love is blind but I didnt think it extended to sports teams...

    I hope this latest news allows for people to stop defending francona in this mess - he was the biggest enabler....you know who else was? the fans...and even the management ($300 headphoines??? wth????...like they needed more money/toys with the salaries they are making)
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from KRomine. Show KRomine's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    This started in Spring Training.  The resort atmosphere that carried over into the 2-10 start planted the seeds for the September collapse.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: good read on the collapse

    I'm also disappointed to learn of the $300 headphones for each player. The perks these millionaires already receive staggers me. They don't need even more of them. I'd listen to trade offers on just about everyone other than Pedroia.
     

Share