Iggy optioned

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    Exactly, Southpaw...I've heard the same thing.  Bob Melvin raves about his defense as well.  Maybe people just don't realize that he was an all-star caliber SS before the injury because he played in AZ.  It seems people think this guy is another "Aviles or Scutaro" type player.  He averaged 65 extra base a year with an .800 OPS, but the stat manipulators will cite his recent stats before he was fully healthy as "who he is as a player."

    Drew hurt his ankle in July of 2011. His career OPS at that time was not .800, it was .773. Those stats were highly influenced by 2 big early years: 2006 (.874) and 2008 (.836). In the 3 years after his monster 2008 season, Drew was "healthy". 

    Here's what he did the last 3 years when healthy:

    2009: .748

    2010: .810

    2011: .713

    Total: .765  (.265  32 171 in 1582 PAs with 112 2B+3B)

    (BTW, Scutaro's OPS during that same time was .761.)

    Per 630 PAs ~ .266 13  69  (45 2B + 3B)

    Those are very good numbers for a SS in MLB, no doubt, but they are not . I have never said Drew is not a better offensive player than Iggy. I expect better offense from Drew than his 2012 numbers, but I am not expecting career highs or much better than his 3 years up to the ankle break.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bucket656. Show bucket656's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    well the pressures on drew now all iggy can do is be a star for PAW and wait for his number to be called back up to the majors while drew tries earns his contract. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    More people seem to be concerned about being "right" than actually rooting for the team that is on the field, which causes them to lose the ability to be objective.  Maybe it's low self esteem, maybe it's an "agenda" or maybe they don't take the time to look at all of the facts before they formulate an opinion and just hope to be able to relish an opportunity to say "I told you so."

    I root for the Sox to win and all our players to do well, no matter what my opinions are on who should play or not. The two are not mutually exclusive.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    How many managers bad mouth a current player's skillset, even after they no longer manage them.

     

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I hope he is better than I expect, but I also trust the panel on the Fielding Bible. These guys probably watch more SSs than a manager.

     



    So Bob Melvin was just being "nice" to a former player? While I'm sure that happens, you do realize that he asked Billy Beane to acquire him?  Let's just agree to disagree as I'm not even going to acknowledge the fielding bible comment.

     Stop putting words in my mouth.

    I said, "I'm not saying you are wrong," but do you seriously think managers and ex-managers of players departed always tell the truth about the skills of their players?

    Yes, I know he asked Beane to get Drew, but that does not prove he thinks Drew is an excellent fielder. 

    Ignore the Fielding Bible if you want, but if they had voted Drew as a top fielder, you'd care.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Yes Moon, they should see him in a different light. Last year he looked like a deer in the headlights at the plate and unsure of himself and overmatched. This year hes bigger, looks more confident, has a better approach and stands taller at the plate. Doesnt look overmathced...Are we looking at the same thing???

     




    MOON DOESNT LOOK AT THE GAME, HE JUST READS STATS...this Iggy decision is the litmus test for baseball sanity and common sense...an awesome fielding young shortstop who is rising up to the challenge as a ML or a injured overpaid journeyman shortstop who hit .220 in oakland and in AZ was called out by his manager for not playing when he could....hmmm decisions...this would be a joke if ben werent involved

     



    You are lost Geo.

    I watch every play of every game every year, sometimes 2-3 times.

    My position was to play Iggy as our FT SS ever since the start of 2012. Maybe some "stats" might help you comprehend my writings.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.



    He was not hurt before the ankle injury. He had over 350 PAs and was off to a .713 OPS start. Why ignore that? he was healthy. The fact is, he had a great 2008 season followed by 2 and a half healthy seasons of very good offense, but not really .800 ball. To expect .800 might be stretching it (not saying you expect 800).

     
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    Re: Iggy optioned

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=26031217

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    How many managers bad mouth a current player's skillset, even after they no longer manage them.

     

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I hope he is better than I expect, but I also trust the panel on the Fielding Bible. These guys probably watch more SSs than a manager.

     



    So Bob Melvin was just being "nice" to a former player? While I'm sure that happens, you do realize that he asked Billy Beane to acquire him?  Let's just agree to disagree as I'm not even going to acknowledge the fielding bible comment.

     Stop putting words in my mouth.

    I said, "I'm not saying you are wrong," but do you seriously think managers and ex-managers of players departed always tell the truth about the skills of their players?

    Yes, I know he asked Beane to get Drew, but that does not prove he thinks Drew is an excellent fielder. 

    Ignore the Fielding Bible if you want, but if they had voted Drew as a top fielder, you'd care.



    Nope...I said Bob Melvin raved about his fielding.  I never said asking Beane to acquire him makes him a terrific fielder.  Again, I'll agree to disagree.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.

     



    He was not hurt before the ankle injury. He had over 350 PAs and was off to a .713 OPS start. Why ignore that? he was healthy. The fact is, he had a great 2008 season followed by 2 and a half healthy seasons of very good offense, but not really .800 ball. To expect .800 might be stretching it (not saying you expect 800).

     

     




    yes, I know, but whos to say he wouldnt have ended up with much better numbers. Or for that matter, worse. Its not a true season. 08-10 are.

    Like jasko, We agree to disagree.

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to hill55's comment:

    FanGraphs had a positive write-up on Jose Iglesias on Wednesday:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/rated-rookies-week-one/

    Scroll down.



    They note something which is very clear to those of us who have watched Iglesias. He wants to pull everything. Lots of analysts have said that the Redsox don't know what they have in Iglesias. I would instead note that they probably know exactly what they have but feel he needs work in taking that outside pitch up the middle and to RF because that is the only pitch he is going to see with regularity. Ergo signing Drew. 

    Iglesias can help the team right now but he will be a lot better player after he develops more as a hitter, and his contact rates indicate that he will get to be a decent hitter over time.

    Do we want a .220 hitting / excellent defense SS or an all star SS. I think that answer is easy. The sox made the right decision. Let's hope Iglesias learns how to take the ball the other way and show more patience at the plate soon.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    How many managers bad mouth a current player's skillset, even after they no longer manage them.

     

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I hope he is better than I expect, but I also trust the panel on the Fielding Bible. These guys probably watch more SSs than a manager.

     



    So Bob Melvin was just being "nice" to a former player? While I'm sure that happens, you do realize that he asked Billy Beane to acquire him?  Let's just agree to disagree as I'm not even going to acknowledge the fielding bible comment.

     Stop putting words in my mouth.

    I said, "I'm not saying you are wrong," but do you seriously think managers and ex-managers of players departed always tell the truth about the skills of their players?

    Yes, I know he asked Beane to get Drew, but that does not prove he thinks Drew is an excellent fielder. 

    Ignore the Fielding Bible if you want, but if they had voted Drew as a top fielder, you'd care.

     



    Nope...I said Bob Melvin raved about his fielding.  I never said asking Beane to acquire him makes him a terrific fielder.  Again, I'll agree to disagree.  

     



    You have a link?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.

     



    He was not hurt before the ankle injury. He had over 350 PAs and was off to a .713 OPS start. Why ignore that? he was healthy. The fact is, he had a great 2008 season followed by 2 and a half healthy seasons of very good offense, but not really .800 ball. To expect .800 might be stretching it (not saying you expect 800).

     

     




    yes, I know, but whos to say he wouldnt have ended up with much better numbers. Or for that matter, worse. Its not a true season. 08-10 are.

    Like jasko, We agree to disagree.

     



    Those PAs count. His 1500+ PAs after 2008 were not that spectacular. There's nothing to agree or diagree about there. He was healthy for 2.5 years after 2008 and wasn't close to thos numbers over that very large sample size.

    Why should we expect Drew, if healthy, to hit like he did in 2008 rather than 2009- 2011 (the larger and more recent sample size)?

    Even if you count 2008, his OPS from 2008-2011 was .786. That's close enough to .800 to think .800 is not out of the question, but he's played 4 seasons (counting partial seasons) since 2008. I'd project something like .730 to .760 if he stays healthy this year. That should be 100 points higher than Iggy would be at. I just don't see .780-.820 this year from Stephen. I hope he does, but I don't expect it.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    I just read that Lackey was put on the DL and Drew was activated...so unless something else is going on Iggy is still with the team.

    oops...they sent Iggy down and recalled Alex Wilson from AAA.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    Do we want a .220 hitting / excellent defense SS or an all star SS. I think that answer is easy. The sox made the right decision. Let's hope Iglesias learns how to take the ball the other way and show more patience at the plate soon.

    You think if Drew is 100% healthy, he makes the 2013 Allstar game?

    I'll take the .220/excellent fielder over the .745 OPS/average at best fielder for 150 games, thank you very much.

    Yes, on this, we can "agree to disagree".

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    How many managers bad mouth a current player's skillset, even after they no longer manage them.

     

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I hope he is better than I expect, but I also trust the panel on the Fielding Bible. These guys probably watch more SSs than a manager.

     



    So Bob Melvin was just being "nice" to a former player? While I'm sure that happens, you do realize that he asked Billy Beane to acquire him?  Let's just agree to disagree as I'm not even going to acknowledge the fielding bible comment.

     Stop putting words in my mouth.

    I said, "I'm not saying you are wrong," but do you seriously think managers and ex-managers of players departed always tell the truth about the skills of their players?

    Yes, I know he asked Beane to get Drew, but that does not prove he thinks Drew is an excellent fielder. 

    Ignore the Fielding Bible if you want, but if they had voted Drew as a top fielder, you'd care.

     



    Nope...I said Bob Melvin raved about his fielding.  I never said asking Beane to acquire him makes him a terrific fielder.  Again, I'll agree to disagree.  

     

     



    You have a link?

     



    You'll spend hours composing 2023 Sox line-ups, but you're too lazy to Google Bob Melvin quotes? 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    I just read that Lackey was put on the DL and Drew was activated...so unless something else is going on Iggy is still with the team.

     

    No, Wilson came up for Lackey.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.

     



    He was not hurt before the ankle injury. He had over 350 PAs and was off to a .713 OPS start. Why ignore that? he was healthy. The fact is, he had a great 2008 season followed by 2 and a half healthy seasons of very good offense, but not really .800 ball. To expect .800 might be stretching it (not saying you expect 800).

     

     




    yes, I know, but whos to say he wouldnt have ended up with much better numbers. Or for that matter, worse. Its not a true season. 08-10 are.

    Like jasko, We agree to disagree.

     

     



    Those PAs count. His 1500+ PAs after 2008 were not that spectacular. There's nothing to agree or diagree about there. He was healthy for 2.5 years after 2008 and wasn't close to thos numbers over that very large sample size.

     

    Why should we expect Drew, if healthy, to hit like he did in 2008 rather than 2009- 2011 (the larger and more recent sample size)?

    Even if you count 2008, his OPS from 2008-2011 was .786. That's close enough to .800 to think .800 is not out of the question, but he's played 4 seasons (counting partial seasons) since 2008. I'd project something like .730 to .760 if he stays healthy this year. That should be 100 points higher than Iggy would be at. I just don't see .780-.820 this year from Stephen. I hope he does, but I don't expect it.




    Papi started slow before and ended up with a high OBP. taking a couple months and counting that is not the way to evaluate anyone. If I were to guess, I would say Drew is about a .780 OPS MLB SS.

    It doesnt matter though Moon, we obviously are not going to agree on this one. I respect your POV, but respectfully disagree.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

      A sad day for the 2013 Red Sox......  It will be interesting where the next 30 days takes us.........   As I have said before, the REd Sox pitchers got off to a great start (ERA) because there was a SS there that made the other team play with only 3 outs per inning..... The entire DEFENSE was pitcher friendly !!!!


    Can somebody illustrate those defensive plays that Iggy has made so far that have changed the outcome of a game?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    You have a link?

     

     



    You'll spend hours composing 2023 Sox line-ups, but you're too lazy to Google Bob Melvin quotes? 

    I googled Bob Melvin Stephen Drew and went through 3 pages and found nothing other than Bob saying, "he's a good player". Maybe I missed it. 

    I'm not doubting Bob said it, I'm just saying he might (notice I said "might") not fully mean what he said about a plyer he was obtaining or just lost.

    Drew's UZR/150 numbers were improving over his horrid start. I could easily use his careerb fielding numbers like some are using his career hitting numbers to call him one of the worst fielders in MLB, but I won't because I do not think it is true. The same way I do not think Iggy has magically become an offensive weapon over one winter. Drew is probably an average fielder when healthy. There are a lot of very good to great MLB fielding SSs today, so this is not norever was meant to be a slam on Drew.

    I might not value his offense from 2006 and 2008 as much as from 2009-2011 or 2009- 2012, and maybe we disagree on what we project from him on offense, but I do not think it would be by much.

    I think I projected something .280  15  70 (with 45 2B+3B) in 150 games played.

    I'd probably project .235  2  45 (with 30 2B & 3B) by Iggy over 150 games. 

    The extra 20-25 hits by Drew, all of which would be XBHs is substantial, but I do not feel it outweighs the 60-100 more plays I feel Iggy would make on defense. Our staff needs all the confidence building, shortened innings, and outs it can get from the guys behind them, and the SS position is the best place to start, IMO.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    2011 was a partial season. Id go with 08-10 to get an accurate story. Either way Moon, both myself and Jasko have heard from within the organization on Drew. Hes a better defender than your numbers suggest. I trust them more that the metrics guys.

    Hes a good defender with a good stick. Iggy will be back soon enough.

     



    He was not hurt before the ankle injury. He had over 350 PAs and was off to a .713 OPS start. Why ignore that? he was healthy. The fact is, he had a great 2008 season followed by 2 and a half healthy seasons of very good offense, but not really .800 ball. To expect .800 might be stretching it (not saying you expect 800).

     

     




    yes, I know, but whos to say he wouldnt have ended up with much better numbers. Or for that matter, worse. Its not a true season. 08-10 are.

    Like jasko, We agree to disagree.

     

     



    Those PAs count. His 1500+ PAs after 2008 were not that spectacular. There's nothing to agree or diagree about there. He was healthy for 2.5 years after 2008 and wasn't close to thos numbers over that very large sample size.

     

    Why should we expect Drew, if healthy, to hit like he did in 2008 rather than 2009- 2011 (the larger and more recent sample size)?

    Even if you count 2008, his OPS from 2008-2011 was .786. That's close enough to .800 to think .800 is not out of the question, but he's played 4 seasons (counting partial seasons) since 2008. I'd project something like .730 to .760 if he stays healthy this year. That should be 100 points higher than Iggy would be at. I just don't see .780-.820 this year from Stephen. I hope he does, but I don't expect it.

     




    Papi started slow before and ended up with a high OBP. taking a couple months and counting that is not the way to evaluate anyone. If I were to guess, I would say Drew is about a .780 OPS MLB SS.

     

    It doesnt matter though Moon, we obviously are not going to agree on this one. I respect your POV, but respectfully disagree.



    I didn't take a half year, I took 2.5 years. There a chance drew might have done worse that second half. The point is, they were 350+ PAs while healthy, and they shouldn't be thrown out because he didn't play the second half of 2011. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy optioned

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

      A sad day for the 2013 Red Sox......  It will be interesting where the next 30 days takes us.........   As I have said before, the REd Sox pitchers got off to a great start (ERA) because there was a SS there that made the other team play with only 3 outs per inning..... The entire DEFENSE was pitcher friendly !!!!

     


    Can somebody illustrate those defensive plays that Iggy has made so far that have changed the outcome of a game?

     



    He's made 2-5 more plays than Drew would have made. It's near impossible to gauge runs saved. The innings got shorter, the starter went longer, the whole dynamics of the games were changed.

     

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