is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    5. Derek Jeter 71.6 11968 6. Yogi Berra 59.4 8350 7. Bill Dickey 55.9 7064

    That's what I was talking about.  

    Dickey has 1 WAR per 126 PAs.

    Yogi has 1 WAR per 141 PAs.

    Jeter has 1 WAR per 167 PAs.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to steven11's comment:
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    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
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    tim kirkjian said no the former but yes to the latter.. he puts honus wagner first all time and another obscure all timer up there. he had jete at 6th alltime yank with mo at 7th, with yogi ahead in 5th. i say yogi has to b bumped off for the jete. mo at 7th seems right. ruth-gehrig-dimaggio-mantle-jeter!

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    He is the best ss ever for the Yankees.  Not moving over to third was a good non move.  He does not break the top five for the all time Yankee list but is easily in the 6-10 group.

    [/QUOTE]

       "6-10 group"

             That sounds about right.

             Yankees would be a better team if Jeter would move over to 3rd this season and sign Drew to play SS.

       

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    Good thead; nothing I can really add that hasn't already been said.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
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    In response to ThefourBs' comment:
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    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
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    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
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    tim kirkjian said no the former but yes to the latter.. he pu homer wagner firt all time and another obscure al timer up there. he had jete at 6th allt ime yank with mo at 7th, with yogi ahead in 5th. i say yogi has to b bumped off for the jete. mo at 7th sees right. ruth-gehrig-dimaggio-mantle-jeter!

    [/QUOTE]

    If Jeter stays healthy this season he will surpass Honus Wagner as the SS all-time hit leader.

    My take? All the love Jeter gets on this site with the game on the line I'll (take) a ball hit to Jeter.

    [/QUOTE]

    The operative word being "to", not "near".

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    Too bad the Sox have never had one as good.

    [/QUOTE]

      Give it a rest Pop's.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
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    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    When it comes to "taste in women", Jeter is ranked in the top.   I read somewhere that he used to date Jessica Alba?  Jeter is a lucky son of a b**ch.   Cool

     

    [/QUOTE]  right around the time she was just blowing up as a celeb.. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Who cares that he's a Yankee, this is why I "hate" Jeter.  Tongue Out

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to JIMMYPROFFER's comment:
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    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
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    5. Derek Jeter 71.6 11968 6. Yogi Berra 59.4 8350 7. Bill Dickey 55.9 7064

    That's what I was talking about.  

    Dickey has 1 WAR per 126 PAs.

    Yogi has 1 WAR per 141 PAs.

    Jeter has 1 WAR per 167 PAs.

    [/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately Dickey does not get enough recognition, IMO.

    Certainly one of the greatest catchers ever.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's why I chose him and Berra over Jeter.  My recollection is that the top-4 catchers were fairly interchangeable as the top catcher of all time-Berra, Dickey, Cochrane, and Bench.  So it's a claim of someone that might be the best of all-time, against the claim of Jeter, who is probably more in the range of 6-10 as a SS.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to BMav's comment:
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    In response to royf19's comment:
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    Not bad. I was thinking about Appling. Forgot about Vaughn. I think Ernie Banks is a no-brainer top five, but it's a good debate.

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    The main problem ranking Banks at SS is that he actually played more games at 1st base. If we go by whole careers at any position I would have needed to rank ARod.:(

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Banks played about 1100 games at shortstop and gets ranked second by some.

     

    This thread is 58 posts long and its about time that someone mentioned Robin Yount (1400 games at shortstop) as the most glaring omission...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
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    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
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    tim kirkjian said no the former but yes to the latter.. he pu homer wagner firt all time and another obscure al timer up there. he had jete at 6th allt ime yank with mo at 7th, with yogi ahead in 5th. i say yogi has to b bumped off for the jete. mo at 7th sees right. ruth-gehrig-dimaggio-mantle-jeter!

    [/QUOTE] and anyone paying attention will say you have taken leave of your senses..despite all of Jeter's successes, Yogi is the epitome of a winner in terms of Yankees' success....


    [/QUOTE]

    If I were to drop one, to make room for Jeter. It'd be Mantle. who due to injury and his own deamons probably cost himself a legit shot at 600 homer....

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

     

    "Too bad the Sox have never had one as good."

    Kind of classless to bring up this point during a Jeter tribute thread on a Red Sox forum. You could stand to be less antagonistic. 

    ti's pretty good being a Sox fan of late, so your concerns aren't really needed or wanted. 

    Besides, Nomar WAS better than Jeter. Albeit for about three months.

     



    Responding in kind to snarky remark about Jeter. Equally classless depending on the reader.

     

    What 3 months was Nomar better than Jeter December to February?

     



    I'm pretty sure that you could find three months during the 2000 season where Nomar might have had three better months. Infact from 1996 through 2000 you might be able to make the case that he had 3 seasons where Nomar was the better offensive player..Arod was the best...although we can now erase him from the argument, but at that time no one suspected he or Nomar....

     

    *Nomar's OPS in 2000 was 1.003 with a war of 7.1

    *Jeter's OPS was a very respectable .896 with war of 4.4 

    Cleary today Jeter has surpassed all of his contemporaries and is now among the greats to have ever played...however early in his career Jeter was rated by most of the pundits as the 3rd or 4th best offensive SS in the game behind Nomer, Arod and Tejada. It's a toss up who was the better defender of that group. The best SS during Jeters prime was clearly the little "O", Omar Vizquel. second place wasn't even close. 

    The real debate is not whether Jeter is hall of fame worthy, and cleary he's separated himself from the above comparisons. No one could argue that the sum of his parts and his career accomplishments make him a first ballot lock. Rather how much weight or value do the writers place on a SS defensive metric and on field leadship. Vizquel's offensive stats fall short, his glove and the sum of his parts make him a HOF, if indeed defensive metrics carry any weight in the minds of the voters.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    5. Derek Jeter 71.6 11968 6. Yogi Berra 59.4 8350 7. Bill Dickey 55.9 7064

    That's what I was talking about.  

    Dickey has 1 WAR per 126 PAs.

    Yogi has 1 WAR per 141 PAs.

    Jeter has 1 WAR per 167 PAs.

    [/QUOTE]

    war under values catchers defense and over values every other position....

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    tim kirkjian said no the former but yes to the latter.. he pu homer wagner firt all time and another obscure al timer up there. he had jete at 6th allt ime yank with mo at 7th, with yogi ahead in 5th. i say yogi has to b bumped off for the jete. mo at 7th sees right. ruth-gehrig-dimaggio-mantle-jeter!

    [/QUOTE] and anyone paying attention will say you have taken leave of your senses..despite all of Jeter's successes, Yogi is the epitome of a winner in terms of Yankees' success....


    [/QUOTE]

    If I were to drop one, to make room for Jeter. It'd be Mantle. who due to injury and his own deamons probably cost himself a legit shot at 600 homer....

    [/QUOTE]

    He came up as a SS also.  Much better range than Jeter.  7.88 RF/9 v 4.08 for Jeter.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to BMav's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:



    Not bad. I was thinking about Appling. Forgot about Vaughn. I think Ernie Banks is a no-brainer top five, but it's a good debate.

     

     



    The main problem ranking Banks at SS is that he actually played more games at 1st base. If we go by whole careers at any position I would have needed to rank ARod.:(

     

     




     

     

    Banks played about 1100 games at shortstop and gets ranked second by some.

     

    This thread is 58 posts long and its about time that someone mentioned Robin Yount (1400 games at shortstop) as the most glaring omission...

     



    Except he moved to the OF mid-to-late career; which is probably what Jeter should have done.

     

    This yr; I believe he's going to break the record set by Aparicio as oldest starting SS, assuming he's healthy; I saw Aparicio live that yr; and who BTW was on the RS at the time; still  fabulous, but of course missing a step or two compared to  his younger self; great arm.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    5. Derek Jeter 71.6 11968 6. Yogi Berra 59.4 8350 7. Bill Dickey 55.9 7064

    That's what I was talking about.  

    Dickey has 1 WAR per 126 PAs.

    Yogi has 1 WAR per 141 PAs.

    Jeter has 1 WAR per 167 PAs.

    [/QUOTE]

    war under values catchers defense and over values every other position....

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought WAR used UZR for their defensive component, since that wasn't around in Yogi's era, how is his WAR calculated?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
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    Not bad. I was thinking about Appling. Forgot about Vaughn. I think Ernie Banks is a no-brainer top five, but it's a good debate.

    [/QUOTE]

    The main problem ranking Banks at SS is that he actually played more games at 1st base. If we go by whole careers at any position I would have needed to rank ARod.:(

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Banks played about 1100 games at shortstop and gets ranked second by some.

     

    This thread is 58 posts long and its about time that someone mentioned Robin Yount (1400 games at shortstop) as the most glaring omission...

    [/QUOTE]

    When I did my initial ranking, it was off the top of my head. I didn't rank Yount high because I knew he moved to CF. Didn't realize he actually played more games at SS than Banks.

    I don't know if it makes a difference -- have to rethink my rankings -- but the points on Yount and Banks are certainly worth considering.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    5. Derek Jeter 71.6 11968 6. Yogi Berra 59.4 8350 7. Bill Dickey 55.9 7064

    That's what I was talking about.  

    Dickey has 1 WAR per 126 PAs.

    Yogi has 1 WAR per 141 PAs.

    Jeter has 1 WAR per 167 PAs.

    [/QUOTE]

    war under values catchers defense and over values every other position....

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought WAR used UZR for their defensive component, since that wasn't around in Yogi's era, how is his WAR calculated?

    [/QUOTE]

    I have no idea moon...perhaps Joe or hill55 could shed some light on it? 

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from CommyContrarianOnTwitter. Show CommyContrarianOnTwitter's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    99 percent of baseball fans, baseball historians, the media, and talk show hosts, believe in all sincerity that Jeter will be a shoo-in into the HOF on the first ballot.

    Only lifetime Yankee fans or baseball historians are qualified to assess if Jeter is a top 5 Yankee. This isn't a Yankee fan forum - it is a Red Sox forum.

    Whether Jeter is a top 5 all-time SS would be a good topic on a Yankee forum in NYC but this is a Red Sox forum within the Boston Globe website that is in Boston, Mass. and not in NYC.

    Why can't Bosox fans obsess about their team, their history, their organization, and start about such topics. Am I in the right forum?

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    hey laguna let me break it down for you.. way it works outside your lil tea partty bubble is that u gotta first grasp that many of us sawx fans are international or big pic sox fans, not just intralocal jabbies. we like to know whats going on around us esp in the division, conference or league in which we compete. this is also a democracy, if u got something more important, u can start that thread. we'll vote by our comments. obviously many like this topic. dont b a buzzkill. u can choose to ignore it if u want or focus on one of the many lester good, papi great koolaid pompom threads.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    99 percent of baseball fans, baseball historians, the media, and talk show hosts, believe in all sincerity that Jeter will be a shoo-in into the HOF on the first ballot.

    Only lifetime Yankee fans or baseball historians are qualified to assess if Jeter is a top 5 Yankee. This isn't a Yankee fan forum - it is a Red Sox forum.

    Whether Jeter is a top 5 all-time SS would be a good topic on a Yankee forum in NYC but this is a Red Sox forum within the Boston Globe website that is in Boston, Mass. and not in NYC.

    Why can't Bosox fans obsess about their team, their history, their organization, and start about such topics. Am I in the right forum?

    [/QUOTE]

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    99 percent of baseball fans, baseball historians, the media, and talk show hosts, believe in all sincerity that Jeter will be a shoo-in into the HOF on the first ballot.

    The 1% that don't agree must have spent the last 20 years in a cave...

    Only lifetime Yankee fans or baseball historians are qualified to assess if Jeter is a top 5 Yankee.

    I think you're dismissing those that are baseball fans first and foremost...Which is an all inclusive club, that any one gets to join, of which I am a member. Who happens to be a lifelong 3rd generation fan of the Boston Red Sox Baeball Club of the American League.

    This isn't a Yankee fan forum - it is a Red Sox forum.

    True, to be precise it's a Red Sox forum, this thread is titled. Baseball-Red Sox-front burner; meaning topics that are in the present revelent to our hometown nine. Jeter anouncing his retirement qualifies as something worth discussing. That he plays for the hated Yanks of New York, our chief rival makes it a front burner worthy...

    Whether Jeter is a top 5 all-time SS would be a good topic on a Yankee forum in NYC but this is a Red Sox forum within the Boston Globe website that is in Boston, Mass. and not in NYC.

    Funny, I'm sitting in Seattle and able to access this site? 

    Why can't Bosox fans obsess about their team, their history, their organization, and start about such topics. Am I in the right forum?

    Bosox fans already obsess over our boys...The good, the bad and the ugly. Fear not, when one of our boys announce they're retiring. Are worthy of consideration to be in the conversation for one of the greatest in franchise history. I'm pretty sure this board will light up like a Christmas tree.

    Hmmm just a thought perhaps you could start a discussion on that very topic...I'm pretty sure you'll get plenty of bites. 

    [/QUOTE]

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Marioguy424. Show Marioguy424's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

     You guys underrate Jeter in terms of where he stands amongst the best shortstops ever. In my opinion, Jeter stands only behind Wagner.

     Had Banks compiled his career numbers only at short, I would rank him above Jeter, but he actually played a majority of his games at first base, making his great offensive numbers (which form the bulk of his greatness) somewhat less amazing.

     Ripken is horribly overrated; his defense was average, his speed was nothing special, and even for a shortstop, though he was a very good hitter throughout his career, he had few great years. He is mainly so exalted in history because of his games-played streak and his being 1st all time for home runs by a full-time shortstop (Banks and A-Rod switched positions) -- and even then, he spent his last few years at 3rd base.

     Ozzie Smith, though the best defensive shortstop ever, did not exceed Jeter in defense as much as Jeter exceeded him in offense.

    Yount, like Banks, spent too much time at another position to be ranked above a guy like Jeter (though their playing styles were similar).

     Case in point.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    In response to Marioguy424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     You guys underrate Jeter in terms of where he stands amongst the best shortstops ever. In my opinion, Jeter stands only behind Wagner.

     Had Banks compiled his career numbers only at short, I would rank him above Jeter, but he actually played a majority of his games at first base, making his great offensive numbers (which form the bulk of his greatness) somewhat less amazing.

     Ripken is horribly overrated; his defense was average, his speed was nothing special, and even for a shortstop, though he was a very good hitter throughout his career, he had few great years. He is mainly so exalted in history because of his games-played streak and his being 1st all time for home runs by a full-time shortstop (Banks and A-Rod switched positions) -- and even then, he spent his last few years at 3rd base.

     Ozzie Smith, though the best defensive shortstop ever, did not exceed Jeter in defense as much as Jeter exceeded him in offense.

    Yount, like Banks, spent too much time at another position to be ranked above a guy like Jeter (though their playing styles were similar).

     Case in point.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't disagree with your opinion, but it is yours and yours alone...of which you're certainly entitled. Carl Yazstremski is recognized as the greatest defensive leftfielder in Red Sox history, though he too played first base and later finished his career as a DH. There's currently 23 Short Stops in the Hall and Banks is on that list as such belongs in the conversation for best of all time...that he changed positions doesn't detract from his greatness while he played SS. 1000 games is not a small sample. given that I also don't have a problem with framing an argument that duecto his playing more games at first, it disqualifies him from being rated the best all time. however if the Hall recognizes him as a SS then he certainly qualifies to be on a list of the Alltime greats. 

    Below is a sampling of web sites specific to Hall of Fame worhty "best of all time" SS or those already enshrinded. Baseball reference has a metrics (Jaws) which grades players worthiness to be in the Hall...They're ranked based on career WAR. Jeter is ranked 12th all time on that list, interesting behind Allen Trammel. Banks is ranked 7th....

    http://baseball.about.com/od/majorleaguehistory/tp/top10shortstops.htm

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: is JETER a top 5 Yankee or a top 5 all-time SS?

    Top five all time SS? Dont make me laugh.

     

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