Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

      I think Biggio should have gone in this year.  I bet he will next year.  Jack Morris' vote suggests he might get in next year.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from yankenstein3. Show yankenstein3's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    The baseball writers assoc. embarassed themselves with this voting. They are a bunch of self righteous holier than thou asrrses. And they are a bunch of cowards trying to hide from an entire era of the game of baseball...it happened, was allowed to happen, and is what it is. Time to get over it. Its not like they are going to compensate for keeping out the "tainted" players by allowing those who were the best of the era that arent "tainted" in, guys like Bernie Williams, who doesnt come close in the voting either. They really need to get over themselves and accept this era of the game for what it was

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to yankenstein3's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The baseball writers assoc. embarassed themselves with this voting. They are a bunch of self righteous holier than thou asrrses. And they are a bunch of cowards trying to hide from an entire era of the game of baseball...it happened, was allowed to happen, and is what it is. Time to get over it. Its not like they are going to compensate for keeping out the "tainted" players by allowing those who were the best of the era that arent "tainted" in, guys like Bernie Williams, who doesnt come close in the voting either. They really need to get over themselves and accept this era of the game for what it was

    [/QUOTE]

    Disagree; I also hope Morris & Biggio get in next yr.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Take a look at this link:  http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml


    How the &^%$ is Biggio not a first ballot hall of famer??  Looking at those numbers.... he is in the top 3 best ALL TIME second baseman to ever play the game....and a case can be made that he is the best stat wise.  He played the game hard...he played the game right....and he was the best in his era at his position.  Pure stupidity....

     

    The same can be said for Piazza......I just never liked him which is why I'm not as pationate for his case.... :-)

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How the &^%$ is Biggio not a first ballot hall of famer??  Pure stupidity....

    [/QUOTE]


    Craig Biggio has an OPS+ of just 112. Ranks him 592 in the history of baseball. Tim Raines had a 123. A small list of players better then 112....

    Dan Ugla
    Jason Kubel
    Corey Koskie
    Brad Hawpe
    Ivan Calderon
    Milton Bradley

    His WAR[10th], wRC+[28th], wOBA[40th] are also quite low, even comparing him only to 2nd basemen. Not to mention he was a bad defender. I am not even sure he was a better 2nd basemen then Bobby Grich, who is not in the Hall of Fame.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Biggio and would vote for him next year if I could. But he is not one of the 3 best 2nd baseman of all time and there is no huge injustice that Biggio did not make it YET.

    As for 3000 hits, I personally find mile stone numbers like that a bad way to pick HOFers. Especially hit totals. Leading off gives a guy a huge advantage. Playing on a better team. Not walking. Staying healthy. Etc. Its a very misleading number.

    He had a long career and deserves credit for that and will likely get in over the next few years. He was an excellent player. But he was not great.

     

     

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How the &^%$ is Biggio not a first ballot hall of famer??  Pure stupidity....

    [/QUOTE]


    Craig Biggio has an OPS+ of just 112. Ranks him 592 in the history of baseball. Tim Raines had a 123. A small list of players better then 112....

    Dan Ugla
    Jason Kubel
    Corey Koskie
    Brad Hawpe
    Ivan Calderon
    Milton Bradley

    His WAR[10th], wRC+[28th], wOBA[40th] are also quite low, even comparing him only to 2nd basemen. Not to mention he was a bad defender. I am not even sure he was a better 2nd basemen then Bobby Grich, who is not in the Hall of Fame.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Biggio and would vote for him next year if I could. But he is not one of the 3 best 2nd baseman of all time and there is no huge injustice that Biggio did not make it YET.

    As for 3000 hits, I personally find mile stone numbers like that a bad way to pick HOFers. Especially hit totals. Leading off gives a guy a huge advantage. Playing on a better team. Not walking. Staying healthy. Etc. Its a very misleading number.

    He had a long career and deserves credit for that and will likely get in over the next few years. He was an excellent player. But he was not great.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    3000 hits on your personal list might not mean much but let me list the players in order behind Biggio with 3060 on the 3k hit list, their total number of hits and then the amount of seasons they played.

    Damn impressive group to be ahead of isn't it?

    Besides the cheat Palmiero do you see another name not in the hof?

    Raines got less votes then Biggio today for a good reason.

    Rickey Henderson 3,055 21 Rod Carew 3,053 22 Lou Brock 3,023 23 Rafael Palmeiro 3,020 24 Cap Anson 3,011 25 Wade Boggs 3,010 26 Al Kaline 3,007 27 Roberto Clemente 3,000 28

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Maybe you're younger than I. I grew up watching Al Kaline, Rod Carew and Roberto Clemente.

    And later Wade Boggs and Ricky Henderson?

    These are some of the greatest players ever.

    Of all time. Bar none.

    I remember watching Kaline, Carew and Clemente to be in in a hit total amongst that group for a ballplayer is an astounding feat.

    Those 3 were great hitters and now in hit total behind Biggio.

    And how many players in the game today do you think will get 3000 hits (besides Jeter) when it is all said and done.

    M. Cabrera ? And who else?

    Name them.

    It is an amazing feat.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Arod is at 2901 going into 2013.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Johnny Damon next after Arod, then Ichiro.

    Ichiro might/could get 3k. Damon no way.

    Not an easy feat.

    A list of 2000 hits.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_with_2,000_hits

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

     

    Craig Biggio has an OPS+ of just 112. Ranks him 592 in the history of baseball. Tim Raines had a 123. A small list of players better then 112....

    Dan Ugla
    Jason Kubel
    Corey Koskie
    Brad Hawpe
    Ivan Calderon
    Milton Bradley

    His WAR[10th], wRC+[28th], wOBA[40th] are also quite low, even comparing him only to 2nd basemen. Not to mention he was a bad defender. I am not even sure he was a better 2nd basemen then Bobby Grich, who is not in the Hall of Fame.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Biggio and would vote for him next year if I could. But he is not one of the 3 best 2nd baseman of all time and there is no huge injustice that Biggio did not make it YET.

    As for 3000 hits, I personally find mile stone numbers like that a bad way to pick HOFers. Especially hit totals. Leading off gives a guy a huge advantage. Playing on a better team. Not walking. Staying healthy. Etc. Its a very misleading number.

    He had a long career and deserves credit for that and will likely get in over the next few years. He was an excellent player. But he was not great.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    3000 hits on your personal list might not mean much but let me list the players in order behind Biggio with 3060 on the 3k hit list, their total number of hits and then the amount of seasons they played.

    Damn impressive group to be ahead of isn't it?

    Besides the cheat Palmiero do you see another name not in the hof?

    Raines got less votes then Biggio today for a good reason.

    Rickey Henderson 3,055 21 Rod Carew 3,053 22 Lou Brock 3,023 23 Rafael Palmeiro 3,020 24 Cap Anson 3,011 25 Wade Boggs 3,010 26 Al Kaline 3,007 27 Roberto Clemente 3,000 28

    [/QUOTE]


    I agreed with you earlier that Biggio is a legit HOF guy....but not IMO because he compiled a lot of hits....he did not have a HOF skill set at "getting hits", obviously, due to his career .281 batting average.  To me it's that he did it fielding very well at 3 crucial defensive positions, knowing how to take a walk, agreeing to be hit by pitches, ran extremely well, played the game properly, etc.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

     


    Craig Biggio has an OPS+ of just 112. Ranks him 592 in the history of baseball. Tim Raines had a 123. A small list of players better then 112....

    Dan Ugla
    Jason Kubel
    Corey Koskie
    Brad Hawpe
    Ivan Calderon
    Milton Bradley

    His WAR[10th], wRC+[28th], wOBA[40th] are also quite low, even comparing him only to 2nd basemen. Not to mention he was a bad defender. I am not even sure he was a better 2nd basemen then Bobby Grich, who is not in the Hall of Fame.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Biggio and would vote for him next year if I could. But he is not one of the 3 best 2nd baseman of all time and there is no huge injustice that Biggio did not make it YET.

    As for 3000 hits, I personally find mile stone numbers like that a bad way to pick HOFers. Especially hit totals. Leading off gives a guy a huge advantage. Playing on a better team. Not walking. Staying healthy. Etc. Its a very misleading number.

    He had a long career and deserves credit for that and will likely get in over the next few years. He was an excellent player. But he was not great.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Counting stats are a poor way to evaluate skills.  Sure, longevity counts for something, but part of that is good luck and good genes.....and over the past 50 years it's increasingly down to great medical/conditioning care and the huge monetary incentive to keep playing.

    Is there a single, sensible person in the world that thinks Pete Rose was a better hitter for average than Ty Cobb?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is an amazing feat.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Its an amazing feat ......of longevity. Every player with 3000 hits played at least 18 seasons and played until they were at least 38. If somehow Johnny Damon played 2 more seasons, he might get to 3000. I would never vote for Damon whether he got that number or not. Would you? What if he got to 2980?

    I am younger then you, but I have seen my fair share of 3000 hits. Its a great accomplishment and everybody that has achieved it except Palmeiro I would want in the HOF. But not because they got 3000 hits. Its their overall resume and game that makes them HOFers. 

    Listen, I stated out of the gate I thought Biggio should be in the HOF. Just not on the first ballot.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is there a single, sensible person in the world that thinks Pete Rose was a better hitter for average than Ty Cobb?

    [/QUOTE]


    Exactly. I would even say Don Mattingly was a better contact hitter then Pete Rose.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is an amazing feat.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Its an amazing feat ......of longevity. Every player with 3000 hits played at least 18 seasons and played until they were at least 38. If somehow Johnny Damon played 2 more seasons, he might get to 3000. I would never vote for Damon whether he got that number or not. Would you? What if he got to 2980?

    I am younger then you, but I have seen my fair share of 3000 hits. Its a great accomplishment and everybody that has achieved it except Palmeiro I would want in the HOF. But not because they got 3000 hits. Its their overall resume and game that makes them HOFers. 

    Listen, I stated out of the gate I thought Biggio should be in the HOF. Just not on the first ballot.

    [/QUOTE]

    Damon is finished as a full time player, what you propose with Damon is hypothetical, he doesn't have 3000 hits if he did he'd have a shot at the hall, just shows how difficult it is to achieve and why it is a rule of thumb to get you into Cooperstown.

    Of course it is feat of longevity just like hitting 500 homeruns is. Or the 808 stolen bases Tim Raines had during the course of his career.

    That what the hall is all about longevity and consistency.

    28 players have hit at least 3000 hits only 4 of those 28 are not yet in the hof.

    1. Pete Rose

    2. Rafael Palmiero

    3. Derek Jeter

    4. Craig Biggio.

    We know why numbers 1 and 2 aren't in.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is there a single, sensible person in the world that thinks Pete Rose was a better hitter for average than Ty Cobb?

    [/QUOTE]


    Exactly. I would even say Don Mattingly was a better contact hitter then Pete Rose.

    [/QUOTE]


    You can say it but it doesn't make it true.

    Don Mattingly was real good for a short period.

    Don Mattingly will never get into the hall as a player.

    Rose was a pure hitter and for a much longer time than Mattingly.

    I'm a lifelong yankee fan, Mattingly is one of favorite players, to say he was a better contact hitter than Pete Rose the game's all-time hit leader is funny.

    Did you see Pete Rose play in his prime?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    Craig Biggio has an OPS+ of just 112. Ranks him 592 in the history of baseball. Tim Raines had a 123. A small list of players better then 112....

    Dan Ugla
    Jason Kubel
    Corey Koskie
    Brad Hawpe
    Ivan Calderon
    Milton Bradley

    His WAR[10th], wRC+[28th], wOBA[40th] are also quite low, even comparing him only to 2nd basemen. Not to mention he was a bad defender. I am not even sure he was a better 2nd basemen then Bobby Grich, who is not in the Hall of Fame.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Biggio and would vote for him next year if I could. But he is not one of the 3 best 2nd baseman of all time and there is no huge injustice that Biggio did not make it YET.

    As for 3000 hits, I personally find mile stone numbers like that a bad way to pick HOFers. Especially hit totals. Leading off gives a guy a huge advantage. Playing on a better team. Not walking. Staying healthy. Etc. Its a very misleading number.

    He had a long career and deserves credit for that and will likely get in over the next few years. He was an excellent player. But he was not great.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Counting stats are a poor way to evaluate skills.  Sure, longevity counts for something, but part of that is good luck and good genes.....and over the past 50 years it's increasingly down to great medical/conditioning care and the huge monetary incentive to keep playing.

    Is there a single, sensible person in the world that thinks Pete Rose was a better hitter for average than Ty Cobb?

    [/QUOTE]


    Ted Williams was a great hitter and so was Pete Rose I saw both of them play.

    I didn't see Ty Cobb play but the game has changed since Ty Cobb.

    Ty Cobb played when the game was segregated, different era close to 100 years ago.

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Pete belongs in the hall.

    He gambled but not as a player against his team.

    He should be banned from the game.

    He deserves to be in the hall for what he did on the field.

    He was a great great player who played with fierce intensity every game.

    The big red machine, what a team.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Good night.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from yankenstein3. Show yankenstein3's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to nhsteven's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to yankenstein3's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The baseball writers assoc. embarassed themselves with this voting. They are a bunch of self righteous holier than thou asrrses. And they are a bunch of cowards trying to hide from an entire era of the game of baseball...it happened, was allowed to happen, and is what it is. Time to get over it. Its not like they are going to compensate for keeping out the "tainted" players by allowing those who were the best of the era that arent "tainted" in, guys like Bernie Williams, who doesnt come close in the voting either. They really need to get over themselves and accept this era of the game for what it was

    [/QUOTE]

    Disagree; I also hope Morris & Biggio get in next yr.

    [/QUOTE]

    It bothers me that some players are being held accountable for this era despite a lack of real evidence (exhibit A - Mike Piazza) while other players have seemingly been placed above suspicion because they don't fit the profile of what a voter thinks a roid user "looks like" (most of the great pitchers from the era, sans Clemens, for example).

    If voters are not choosing guys because they are suspicious that the player may have cheated, they're playing a nearly impossible game. Look at the list of guys who have failed PED tests in the past few years - JC Romero, Jorge Sosa, Guillermo Mota - a bunch of guys appear that don't fit the hulking slugger profile. If that list demonstrates anything, it's that you can't pick out a cheater by looking at appearance or numbers. You just don't know. But apparently voters think they do.

    Piazza may have cheated. Thome might have cheated. Bagwell might have cheated. But so might have Chipper, Jeter, Ichiro, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, etc. We just don't know, and going by "gut feel" is no more than a coin flip, as is judging by appearance or jumps in numbers.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Exactly. I would even say Don Mattingly was a better contact hitter then Pete Rose.

    [/QUOTE]

    You can say it but it doesn't make it true.

    I'm a lifelong yankee fan, Mattingly is one of favorite players, to say he was a better contact hitter than Pete Rose the game's all-time hit leader is funny.

    Did you see Pete Rose play in his prime?

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that just because I say something does not make it true. Just my opinion based on these stats....

    Rose

    BA--.303

    K rate--7.9%

     

    Mattingly

    BA--.307

    K rate--5.0%

     

    Based on those contact hitting stats, Mattingly was solidly better.

    I saw Rose in his late prime. Speaking of seeing  guys in their prime. I am sure you saw all these pitchers in their prime. Which matchups had the better pitcher. The guy on the left or the guy  on the right......

     

    Nolan Ryan ------Pedro Martinez
    Don Sutton ------Sandy Koufax
    Gaylord Perry ---Roy Halliday
    Phil Niekro -----CC Sabathia
    Bert Blyleven ---Curt Schilling
    Jim Kaat --------Whitey Ford
    Frank Tannana ---Ron Guidry
    Jerry Koosman ---Brett Saberhagen
    Jamie Moyer -----Johan Santana
    Dennis Martinez -Cliff Lee
    Tim Wakefield ---J.R. Richard
    Charlie Hough ---Roy Oswalt

     

    Every matchup had the guy on the left with "AT LEAST" a 47 win advantage and a 500+ K advantage. Yet I would say the guy on the right was the better pitcher.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Exactly. I would even say Don Mattingly was a better contact hitter then Pete Rose.

    [/QUOTE]

    You can say it but it doesn't make it true.

    I'm a lifelong yankee fan, Mattingly is one of favorite players, to say he was a better contact hitter than Pete Rose the game's all-time hit leader is funny.

    Did you see Pete Rose play in his prime?

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that just because I say something does not make it true. Just my opinion based on these stats....

    Rose

    BA--.303

    K rate--7.9%

     

    Mattingly

    BA--.307

    K rate--5.0%

     

    Based on those contact hitting stats, Mattingly was solidly better.

    I saw Rose in his late prime. Speaking of seeing  guys in their prime. I am sure you saw all these pitchers in their prime. Which matchups had the better pitcher. The guy on the left or the guy  on the right......

     

    Nolan Ryan ------Pedro Martinez
    Don Sutton ------Sandy Koufax
    Gaylord Perry ---Roy Halliday
    Phil Niekro -----CC Sabathia
    Bert Blyleven ---Curt Schilling
    Jim Kaat --------Whitey Ford
    Frank Tannana ---Ron Guidry
    Jerry Koosman ---Brett Saberhagen
    Jamie Moyer -----Johan Santana
    Dennis Martinez -Cliff Lee
    Tim Wakefield ---J.R. Richard
    Charlie Hough ---Roy Oswalt

     

    Every matchup had the guy on the left with "AT LEAST" a 47 win advantage and a 500+ K advantage. Yet I would say the guy on the right was the better pitcher.

    [/QUOTE]


    We all have our opinions these are mine.

    Rose was the best pure hitter I ever saw.

    Sandy Koufax the most dominant pitcher that I've ever seen.

    If I had to pick one pitcher in his prime to win one game it  would be Koufax. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    Really funny that Bagwell got so many votes at the same time the writers were not voting for Bonds, McGuire and Clemens.

    Are there really people who think Bagwell was not a PED user?

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Just in: NO HOF this year for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We all have our opinions these are mine.

    Rose was the best pure hitter I ever saw.

    Sandy Koufax the most dominant pitcher that I've ever seen.

    If I had to pick one pitcher in his prime to win one game it  would be Koufax. 

    [/QUOTE]

    So you are saying you take Koufax over Sutton and who is better has little to do with career totals, since Sutton has almost twice as many wins as Koufax and about 1200 more K's. Thats good to hear.

    The best contact hitter, pure hitter or average hitter I ever saw was Tony Gwynn. If my life depended on getting a hit I would let Gwynn hit for me. I would not even put Rose in my top 5 pure hitters I saw. But hey, thats just me. The best overall hitter I saw was Barry Bonds.

    Never saw Koufax, but I take Pedro over anybody who I ever saw. And would take Pedro to win a game for me.

    We all have opinions and it was nice hearing yours.

     

     

     

     

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