Last Night's Double Switch

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Last Night's Double Switch

    I dozed off for a bit so forgive me if I missed something here but........

    Sox are down.......late innnings........BV does a double switch that removes WM for NP..........

    But it's late innings and we need runs - and just a couple not a lot........He's into the Pen now......The double switch is meant to be allow you to keep your reliever in longer than 1 inning......But in this situation you need runs...and you are willing to trade in a run to switch pitchers.....So BV's trade off was to have Punto in for Wil to allow Albiers to go more than 1 while we are chasing a lead......That made no sense to me.  Keep your best hitters in and change your pitcher whenever he comes up until your bench is depleted.

    Further more, I believe during Punto's 1st AB (7th inning?) that was the pitcher's spot.  I believe there was a man on 1b.  He could have PH Ortiz right then and there...........

    Any thoughts here?  I think BV made a huge mistake w/ the DS and cost us the game but like I said, I was dozing in and out during the game.....
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    Bobby V may have well just let the pitcher hit, instead of putting Punto in that position. After all at least we all know the pitcher would bunt in any situation, and that would have been better than watching Punto strikeout. Which begs the question, why is Punto still around when the Sox could have Iglesias or a more youthful and better hitter than Punto? And will punto ever get another hit?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    Can't argue w/ you.  I said yesterday morning that I am done w/ Punto.  But that's another issue.

    What about the DS?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    It's a good question and I think you're right, it's very questionable strategy in that game situation, with our bench as thin as it was.  Going through the game log I did realize one thing-Valentine must have figured Sweeney was going to get an AB as a pinch hitter but that plan went sideways when Ross got hurt and Sweeney had to come in and take Ross's #4 spot, meaning he never came to the plate.

    I wouldn't say it 'cost us the game' though.

     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    Middlebrooks made the last out and then they changed the pitcher that is typically how they always do a double switch.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]It's a good question and I think you're right, it's very questionable strategy in that game situation, with our bench as thin as it was.  Going through the game log I did realize one thing-Valentine must have figured Sweeney was going to get an AB as a pinch hitter but that plan went sideways when Ross got hurt and Sweeney had to come in and take Ross's #4 spot, meaning he never came to the plate. I wouldn't say it 'cost us the game' though.  
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    true, but it "Could" have......I just think in that situation, and given what I outlined, that if this is how BV is going to manage NL games then I am VERY VERY concerned.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    It's a little odd.  I think the only reason to make a switch is if you want multiple innings out of your RP.  Otherwise, you're only going to put in a new pitcher anyway in the following inning.  The DS switch made no sense.  Maybe if we had the lead, maybe the added defense might've helped, but down 2, you definitely need the hitting.  I think the DS is kind of an anachronism at this point, but maybe it wasn't the last time BV was managing.  Say what you want about Tito, he absolutely dominated the NL because he was a superior tactician.

    IRT to PHing Papi for Punto, my guess is that BV might've wanted to wait until Hamels was out.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    If I criticize BV here right now, I'm afraid I would be dissing the guy and his So Far, So Good thread and ex-pitch who is much more content with a manager under .500 because he's old school and makes wicked smaht decisions and uses 6 pitchers and makes double switches and is Mr. Strateegee....whatever. I think BV is in over his head. I also think he makes moves to make everyone think he's wicked intelligent. Well, good, fools a lot of people.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    I have been and continue to be very supportive of Bobby, but no way did it make sense to replace Middlebrooks with Punto. Bad move.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    That's what I thought - I was 90% asleep in bed last night and I thought it was stupid....

    That plus the botched call at first cost us the game.  I think we'll get them tonight.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from eggplants. Show eggplants's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

                              Joe........superior tactician? First time I've ever heard that one.           Are we talking about the same guy,TF ?                   
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In response to "Re: Last Night's Double Switch": [QUOTE]That's what I thought - I was 90% asleep in bed last night and I thought it was stupid.... That plus the botched call at first cost us the game.  I think we'll get them tonight. Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE] I missed it too and thought he was injured. That fool Cafardo made no comment in his inning to inning comments.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]                          Joe........superior tactician? First time I've ever heard that one.           Are we talking about the same guy,TF ?                   
    Posted by eggplants[/QUOTE]

    Sure, it's why his record v the NL is so much better than anyone else's.  No DH makes it a more tactical game than the AL.  In the AL, there are relatively few plays where most managers don't play it identically.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]                          Joe........superior tactician? First time I've ever heard that one.           Are we talking about the same guy,TF ?                   
    Posted by eggplants[/QUOTE]
    No, Joe is talking about someone he imagined.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]If I criticize BV here right now, I'm afraid I would be dissing the guy and his So Far, So Good thread and ex-pitch who is much more content with a manager under .500 because he's old school and makes wicked smaht decisions and uses 6 pitchers and makes double switches and is Mr. Strateegee....whatever. I think BV is in over his head. I also think he makes moves to make everyone think he's wicked intelligent. Well, good, fools a lot of people.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    Using six pitchers is not old school. Many very good managers have had and still have teams ( that is, the players ) under .500, either at some time during a season or even at the end.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]If I criticize BV here right now, I'm afraid I would be dissing the guy and his So Far, So Good thread and ex-pitch who is much more content with a manager under .500 because he's old school and makes wicked smaht decisions and uses 6 pitchers and makes double switches and is Mr. Strateegee....whatever. I think BV is in over his head. I also think he makes moves to make everyone think he's wicked intelligent. Well, good, fools a lot of people.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    While you were fulminating about the use of six pitchers, did you happen to notice the outcome of the game?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    The double switch made sense. BV can't use 6-7 pitchers every night. He did it in Tampa in part because he had the lead and really wanted the game against a division rival (worth 2 games in the standings).  You just can't do that every night so trying to get multiple frames out of Albers wasn't an unreasonable move.

    If nobody has noticed yet, a Punto for Middlebrooks trade this week isn't that big a deal.

    I am not a fan of BV's hiring, but I also don't think he mismanaged that game or had an impact on the outcome. Bard put the RS in enough of a hole that even with the great game that Iron Glove Cody Ross had at the plate, it wasn't enough to catch the Phils.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]The double switch made sense. BV can't use 6-7 pitchers every night. He did it in Tampa in part because he had the lead and really wanted the game against a division rival (worth 2 games in the standings).  You just can't do that every night so trying to get multiple frames out of Albers wasn't an unreasonable move. If nobody has noticed yet, a Punto for Middlebrooks trade this week isn't that big a deal. I am not a fan of BV's hiring, but I also don't think he mismanaged that game or had an impact on the outcome. Bard put the RS in enough of a hole that even with the great game that Iron Glove Cody Ross had at the plate, it wasn't enough to catch the Phils.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    that would be the only arguement that I could accept (however, it was late enough into the game where he wouldn't have used too many relievers)
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]The double switch made sense. BV can't use 6-7 pitchers every night. He did it in Tampa in part because he had the lead and really wanted the game against a division rival (worth 2 games in the standings).  You just can't do that every night so trying to get multiple frames out of Albers wasn't an unreasonable move. If nobody has noticed yet, a Punto for Middlebrooks trade this week isn't that big a deal. I am not a fan of BV's hiring, but I also don't think he mismanaged that game or had an impact on the outcome. Bard put the RS in enough of a hole that even with the great game that Iron Glove Cody Ross had at the plate, it wasn't enough to catch the Phils.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    Exactly. 


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]The double switch made sense. BV can't use 6-7 pitchers every night. He did it in Tampa in part because he had the lead and really wanted the game against a division rival (worth 2 games in the standings).  You just can't do that every night so trying to get multiple frames out of Albers wasn't an unreasonable move. If nobody has noticed yet, a Punto for Middlebrooks trade this week isn't that big a deal. I am not a fan of BV's hiring, but I also don't think he mismanaged that game or had an impact on the outcome. Bard put the RS in enough of a hole that even with the great game that Iron Glove Cody Ross had at the plate, it wasn't enough to catch the Phils.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Some reasonable points as always.  One counterpoint I would offer, though, is that Middlebrooks, while slumping, was pencilled into the #5 spot in the lineup.  Which either indicates that Valentine considers him a significantly bigger threat than Punto, or that our lineup was woefully weak.  Either way it makes it questionable to bring Nick Banjo into a game in which we're trailing and shorthanded.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]The double switch made sense. BV can't use 6-7 pitchers every night. He did it in Tampa in part because he had the lead and really wanted the game against a division rival (worth 2 games in the standings).  You just can't do that every night so trying to get multiple frames out of Albers wasn't an unreasonable move. If nobody has noticed yet, a Punto for Middlebrooks trade this week isn't that big a deal. I am not a fan of BV's hiring, but I also don't think he mismanaged that game or had an impact on the outcome. Bard put the RS in enough of a hole that even with the great game that Iron Glove Cody Ross had at the plate, it wasn't enough to catch the Phils.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    He pitched Albers two and Morales one, so he could've accomplished the same thing by pitching Albers one and Morales two.

    He basically gave Punto 2 ABs instead of Middlebrooks, both times as the tying run.  Middlebrooks is not hitting, but Punto is one of the worst hitters in the majors.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch : He pitched Albers two and Morales one, so he could've accomplished the same thing by pitching Albers one and Morales two. He basically gave Punto 2 ABs instead of Middlebrooks, both times as the tying run.  Middlebrooks is not hitting, but Punto is one of the worst hitters in the majors.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]
    He pitched Albers two and Morales one for his own good reasons. Are you paying any attention at all to how BV has been handling the pen?  
    Middlebrooks has also been having problems in the field. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 86redsox. Show 86redsox's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    The 5 walks could've done it too.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last Night's Double Switch : He pitched Albers two and Morales one for his own good reasons. Are you paying any attention at all to how BV has been handling the pen?   Middlebrooks has also been having problems in the field. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    So he brought Punto in for defence in a game we're losing?  Now you're reaching.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Last Night's Double Switch

    If we were ahead in the game, then making the double switch to get your relievers lined up the way you want probably makes sense.  But we weren't ahead.  We were losing, on the road, with a depleted lineup and our best hitter confined to one pinch hit appearance.  In that situation, I think you have to maximize what offence you have.  And voluntarily removing your #5 hitter for a .143 hitter is just not the correct move. 
     

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