Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    I agree & I've said it many times before the playoffs so don't want to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. But I'd have kept Beltre & VMartinez & still gone after Agon. Get Salty as we did &, sorry to say it, but let Tek walk. Youkilis could sub at 1st & 3rd & be a DH too. Money saved from not going after Crawford would have allowed us to keep all 3 and maybe gone after Hunter Pence but even keeping mediocre Cameron, McDonald & Reddick wouldn't have been worse than Crawford. Heck, I'd have rather had our old friend Coco Crisp instead of CC. I even wish we had 10 yr older Johnny Damon before he went to Rays instead of CC. He said he didn't want to come to us and it wasn't a question of money. When someone says that, "Ask the Question Again".

    Then next year we go after a Right Fielder.
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]by Peter Abraham/Boston Globe: ..."Adrian Beltre has three home runs for Texas today in their clinching victory at Tampa Bay. Nobody at the time thought it was a bad idea to trade for Adrian Gonzalez, move Kevin Youkilis to third base and let Adrian Beltre walk away for draft picks. But as Beltre and Victor Marinez play in the postseason, you realize just how good those guys were for the Sox and how players of their character would have helped the 2011 team."
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]It is rare to let a FA walk year one and feel great about it. Pedro did well his first year in NY, Damon did not become a LF/DH with NYY until 2007.

    It will take a few years to write the full story of the moves. Keep in mind VMart was a DH in Detroit and we had a better one this year in Ortiz and Beltre only missed a ton of games in Texas this year. And those guys are older than A-Gon and are going to age faster. It is sledom in fact that guys are huge busts out the gate like Bay or CC have been in their new homes.  

    It is was passing thought of Abraham's I think not a conclusion that the story of Beltre (who only played 4 more games than Youk) or Victor. But no doubt they are good players. 
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]by Peter Abraham/Boston Globe: ..."Adrian Beltre has three home runs for Texas today in their clinching victory at Tampa Bay. Nobody at the time thought it was a bad idea to trade for Adrian Gonzalez, move Kevin Youkilis to third base and let Adrian Beltre walk away for draft picks. But as Beltre and Victor Marinez play in the postseason, you realize just how good those guys were for the Sox and how players of their character would have helped the 2011 team."
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    So Julio Lugo, Bill Hall, Boof Bonser and Wade Miller weren't good Theo Epstein moves?
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]I agree & I've said it many times before the playoffs so don't want to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. But I'd have kept Beltre & VMartinez & still gone after Agon. Get Salty as we did &, sorry to say it, but let Tek walk. Youkilis could sub at 1st & 3rd & be a DH too. Money saved from not going after Crawford would have allowed us to keep all 3 and maybe gone after Hunter Pence but even keeping mediocre Cameron, McDonald & Reddick wouldn't have been worse than Crawford. Heck, I'd have rather had our old friend Coco Crisp instead of CC. I even wish we had 10 yr older Johnny Damon before he went to Rays instead of CC. He said he didn't want to come to us and it wasn't a question of money. When someone says that, "Ask the Question Again". Then next year we go after a Right Fielder.
    Posted by mandobello[/QUOTE]
    Totally agree with you 


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    I don't care about Monday morning quarterbacking on this one...I loved Beltre, and I've said this many times...you get a Sox who does well as a newcomer, hits homers as a newcomer, and plays strong defense at 3b..YOU HOLD ON TO GUYS LIKE THAT...Instead let's give 142 million to a lesser player, a newcomer who they had in duplicate in Ellsbury...let's also give 82 mil to a marginal SP...but all I heard was how expensive Beltre would be, and how it would ruin Sox master plan to have AGON become 1b, so that Youks could go to 3b...Nothing to do with what happened with Texas or with VMART now with Detroit (again master plan said bye-bye to him due to having Ortiz and VMART not being capable in Sox minds as a catcher)...Beltre was a great fit for Boston, Crawford a terrible fit, and that's the part that drives me insane...You don't dump players who produce who can handle the media pressure--Beltre was a great guy in a Sox jersey...meant nothing to the short-term that Sox envisioned him as...Theo's dealings also affectd that clubhouse detrimentally. He put some guys in a situation of we vaiue little for some, value super high for other. Maybe it will be years before you can make an assessment on CC and Lackey (insert cough here). But the initial moves were collosal failures and should have cost Theo his job, not Tito.
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]I agree & I've said it many times before the playoffs so don't want to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. But I'd have kept Beltre & VMartinez & still gone after Agon. Get Salty as we did &, sorry to say it, but let Tek walk. Youkilis could sub at 1st & 3rd & be a DH too. Money saved from not going after Crawford would have allowed us to keep all 3 and maybe gone after Hunter Pence but even keeping mediocre Cameron, McDonald & Reddick wouldn't have been worse than Crawford. Heck, I'd have rather had our old friend Coco Crisp instead of CC. I even wish we had 10 yr older Johnny Damon before he went to Rays instead of CC. He said he didn't want to come to us and it wasn't a question of money. When someone says that, "Ask the Question Again". Then next year we go after a Right Fielder.
    Posted by mandobello[/QUOTE]

    I agree Beltre should have been kept and a catcher brought in years before we lost Masterson for Victor.  Youk could have landed us a good starter as he can this off season.  Nobody expected Youk to drop off so much so his stock may not be all that great right now, especially being hurt the last two seasons.

    I say offer the Brewers Youk to take over for Fielder before 3B ends his career and we get nothing in return.  Youk for Marcum to solidify our staff.
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    Let me add that what I mean by Theo affecting the clubhouse was his pursuit of AGON and the Bridge Year assessment. If guys were only meant to be short term, one wonders how you get "close" to your teammates, shuttling in new ones by plenty just the following season (Wheeler, Jenks, Salty, CC, Aviles, Lavarnway, Bedard, Miller) removing (VMART, Beltre, Kalish (hurt), a few relievers, Cameron, Bill Hall, Cash). Just pointing that out...lots of changes. Affects clubhouses.
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake? : It is rare to let a FA walk year one and feel great about it. Pedro did well his first year in NY, Damon did not become a LF/DH with NYY until 2007. It will take a few years to write the full story of the moves. Keep in mind VMart was a DH in Detroit and we had a better one this year in Ortiz and Beltre only missed a ton of games in Texas this year. And those guys are older than A-Gon and are going to age faster. It is sledom in fact that guys are huge busts out the gate like Bay or CC have been in their new homes.   It is was passing thought of Abraham's I think not a conclusion that the story of Beltre (who only played 4 more games than Youk) or Victor. But no doubt they are good players. 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    With Damon I would say this.  Damon post Red Sox, 06-11 made 65 million.  Drew made 70 million from 07-11.  Damon was clearly the better player of the 2 for the last 3 years, so  letting Damon walk due to the age/$$ reasons for which he was let walk actually didn't play out to make sense.  Sometimes the ageing game doesn't go as expected.

    Pedro may not have helped much in 2007/2008 but with him I can make a strong case that the 2005 team is a back to back champion.  Sometimes it is about the front end not the back end of the contract.

    Beltre and Vmart may not have been good contracts in 2014 but Agone and Crawford may not be good contracts in years 6-7 either.  However you slice it, the moves made in the last off-season didn't work this year. 
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]I agree & I've said it many times before the playoffs so don't want to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. But I'd have kept Beltre & VMartinez & still gone after Agon. Get Salty as we did &, sorry to say it, but let Tek walk. Youkilis could sub at 1st & 3rd & be a DH too. Money saved from not going after Crawford would have allowed us to keep all 3 and maybe gone after Hunter Pence but even keeping mediocre Cameron, McDonald & Reddick wouldn't have been worse than Crawford. Heck, I'd have rather had our old friend Coco Crisp instead of CC. I even wish we had 10 yr older Johnny Damon before he went to Rays instead of CC. He said he didn't want to come to us and it wasn't a question of money. When someone says that, "Ask the Question Again". Then next year we go after a Right Fielder.
    Posted by mandobello[/QUOTE]

    Definitely agree with you. Beltre is a much better everyday 3rd basemen than Youkilis. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    They could've signed Beltre, let Youk play 1st this year, then signed Prince this off-season and alternately DHed Prince/Youk/Beltre in 2012, while always keeping all 3 in the line-up b/c Youk plays both 1st and 3rd.

    Prince might cost roughly what Agone does but it would've at least saved the prospects.  Or maybe they could've just signed Agone this off-season and gone with Youk and Beltre for 2011. 
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]They could've signed Beltre, let Youk play 1st this year, then signed Prince this off-season and alternately DHed Prince/Youk/Beltre in 2012, while always keeping all 3 in the line-up b/c Youk plays both 1st and 3rd. Prince might cost roughly what Agone does but it would've at least saved the prospects.  Or maybe they could've just signed Agone this off-season and gone with Youk and Beltre for 2011. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]


    It all makes sense.      Beltre and V-Mart could have been difference makers this year.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from crmn19. Show crmn19's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    In Response to Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]by Peter Abraham/Boston Globe: ..."Adrian Beltre has three home runs for Texas today in their clinching victory at Tampa Bay. Nobody at the time thought it was a bad idea to trade for Adrian Gonzalez, move Kevin Youkilis to third base and let Adrian Beltre walk away for draft picks. But as Beltre and Victor Marinez play in the postseason, you realize just how good those guys were for the Sox and how players of their character would have helped the 2011 team."
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    To overly analyze, he did not say it was a mistake to get Gonzalez as much as it was to not keep the other two who were moved because of the trade and need to keep the sacred cows - Youkilis and "The Captain."  They could have traded for Gonzalez as he was well worth it. ("God willing" the shoulder will be solid next season.)  They should have kept Beltre and Martinez, which would have given them more versatility at the infield corners, DH and catcher and traded or released the sacred cows .
     
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    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    The true value of the trade for Agon and the loss of both Beltre and VMart will not be known until several more years play out.  However, in the first year, both Beltre and VMart are playing in the post season and AGon is not.  Only time will tell what Rizzo, Kelly and Fuentes will do for the Padres. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    Agon over Beltre for 2011 forward was the correct move.

    Passing on VMart and carting out Varitek was a huge mistake. The proper move was to sign VMart and a acquire a solid defensive veteran catcher (Hernandez) who was under 35 years old. Salty should have spent most of 2011 in AAA.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    lesspaul, you could have had the whole enchilada but no CC signing and a trade of Youkilis which would have reaped massive benefits including a probable better SP than Lackey and even an OF.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    CC signing was a joke. Youk would have created a hole (Lowrie is a joke and Aviles is no more than a UIF)and would not have reaped a Kemp, which is the type of player profile in the OF the Red Sox needed. Lowrie could and should have been traded last winter. Middlebrooks will likely be ready by the end of Youk's contract. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    It comes down to whether or not Gonzalez cares about winning and losing.

    the initial evidence is that he doesn't care.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from lives2ski. Show lives2ski's posts

    Re: Peter Abraham: Letting Beltre and Martinez go and trading for Gonzalez a mistake?

    I think there is no question that the Red Sox would have been better in 2011 with Beltre, VMart and the prospects they gave up for Gonzalez than they were without them and with Gonzalez and Crawford.  It will be a while before we know what the prospects they traded for Gonzalez will turn out to be.  it seems likely Gonzalez will be a productive player for eth Sox long after Beltre and VMart have faded. 

    But Crawford was never a very good idea.  he may bounce back somewhat next year, but his cotnract will be an albatross for years to come.
     

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