Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kamdog. Show Kamdog's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Good pitching beats good hitting, and vice versa.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    From MLB Trade Rumors:

    ESPN's Jim Bowden (Insider subscription req'd) agrees that the Braves don't need to shake up their roster and suggests that Atlanta could be one of the top suitors for Jose Reyes. Bowden also notes that the Braves have fewer looming issues than their September collapse partners in Boston: "While age and a barren farm system dim the Red Sox's upside going into 2012, the Braves have a much brighter outlook."

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    I'd hardly call Boston's farm system "baron".
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]From MLB Trade Rumors: ESPN's Jim Bowden (Insider subscription req'd) agrees that the Braves don't need to shake up their roster and suggests that Atlanta could be one of the top suitors for Jose Reyes . Bowden also notes that the Braves have fewer looming issues than their September collapse partners in Boston: "While age and a barren farm system dim the Red Sox's upside going into 2012, the Braves have a much brighter outlook." http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Hill55,
    I find comments like the above to be rather funny...both teams imploded due to lack of quality starting pitching down the stretch and which killed thier bullpens and it's the Sox that are the team that's being shredded...

    Not sure I agree the Sox are old team and there system is hardly barren...As it pertains to the big club...the nucleaus Ells, Pedrioa, Gonzalez & Crawford are all in their prime and Youk is just 32. So sans Varitek, Ortiz, Scutaro and Drew this team could get younger pretty quick...of the above I'd say it's 50-50 that Scutaro's option is picked up and I do think they'll make a compelling offer to Ortiz. we also have Reddick, Lowrie, Saltalamacchia and Aviles none of whom is remotely close to the of thier careers...
     
    Pitching take away Wakefield (please) The nucleaus of Beckett, Lester, Bucchholz aren't exactly grey beards...Even Lackey wouldn't be considered a grey beard, his issue has nothing to do with age...In the pen Papelbon is he's resigned will be 31 and both Morales & Bard are just entering their primes.

    Down on the farm in 2012 the kid that has the best shot to make the ball club this spring is Doubront...hopefully he takes this offseason seriously and comes to camp ready to compete...

    The biggest question we have in our entire sytem is if or when will Iglesias be ready to play every day in the bigs or will he simply be a journey man gold glove BU...He's still young, but the clock is ticking...

    I think that both Kalish and Reddick are at minimum David Murphy types...and Lavarnway certainly showed promise both with the stick and behind the plate...

    That said...the Sox do lack an impact player at the triple A level and many of their top pitching prospects took a step backwards...Most notable was Doubront who was the guy the Sox counted on to provide organizational depth which is why they sent him to AAA instead of keeping him in the pen...

    The Sox have holes no doubt but they also have a very strong nucleaus with the resources to address all of their needs...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Beantowne,

    Disagree that the Sox lack impact players at the AAA level.  Lavarnway is an impact bat, we could debate if he can stick at catcher, but there's no questioning his bat.  Middlebrooks also was promoted to AAA and projects as an impact player as early as 2013.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from majormathew. Show majormathew's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]I'd hardly call Boston's farm system "baron".
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Didnt they empty their farm to get AGON? I know some good redsox pieces were involved.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    We can only go by what the people in the industry say about their farm system...and they say it is depleted.

    Their real issue is that they spend big money on mid-level pitchers. Lackey at his best was a slightly above avg SP. Beckett has always been too oft injured and inconsistant to be paid like an Ace. Lester would be the closest they have to an Ace, but, this last month aside, he has been more like a #2. Aces need to be innings eaters through out the entire season, and they need to be stoppers.

    Lesters total innings over the last 3 seasons = 602 innings

    Compare that to Halliday and CC = 722 and 704 respectively. Those are Aces. The sox werent willing to pony up for CC when it mattered.

    Pitching wins, and when you have a collection of oft injured 150-180 innings starters it makes it tough to get it done late in the season.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]Beantowne, Disagree that the Sox lack impact players at the AAA level.  Lavarnway is an impact bat, we could debate if he can stick at catcher, but there's no questioning his bat.  Middlebrooks also was promoted to AAA and projects as an impact player as early as 2013.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]

    JB-3,
    I was impressed with Lavarnway, just not sure that he'd be classified as an impact player...

    To clarify, to me the defenition of an impact player is one that is ready for the big leagues and produces at or above the league average for the position they play with the promise of more...Ells & Pedrioa were impact players..So too have been Lester, Buccholz, Papelbon and Bard...from my perspective for Lavarnway the bar is different depending on if he catches or DH's. I don't want to make more or less from his cup of coffee but I saw some good swings and some bad...I think the kid can hit, and he didn't look like he had hands of stone behind the plate, from what I saw the other night he still has work to do framing the low strike...As a catcher his bat will play at or above league average even if he just maintained his 2011 sample size for an entire season...Just not sure that he can hit well enough to be an impact everyday DH?

    As for Middlebrooks like with all prospects time will tell, I've read nothing but positives and I don't disagree that he's earmarked for 2013, based on his age he's also someone who could be in the mix in September of 2012....That said my opin of the system is based on what I've read and the players that project to be ready to make the jump in 2012...

    They are IMHO

    AAAA guys that have little left to prove at the AAA level
    Ryan Kalish...
    Josh Reddick...
    Lars Anderson...

    AAA guys with the promise of more...
    Felix Doubront
    Kyle Weiland
    Jose Inglesias
    Ryan Lavarnway

    AAA guys that need to step up or it's career minors
    Zach Britton
    Stolmy Piemantal
    Alex Wilson
    Luis Esposito

    http://www.soxprospects.com/index.html
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    If we're going by what people in the industry say, then why not reference the mlb top prospect lists that has multiple Sox in the top 50 as of mid season (I haven't seen one more recently)? http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6768361/mlb-keith-law-updated-2011-top-50-prospects

    Middlebrooks is listed at 42.  Baseball America had Ranaudo at 37.


    There has never been a question around Lavarnway's ability to hit, just his defense.  His bat is enough to make him an impact player.  I'm curious to see where he's ranked when they update the lists again.  He shouldn't be that far behind Montero.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    And Beantowne, I'm not sure why you listed Pimentel.  He finished up the season in High A Salem, after being demoted from AA.  He's certainly not at AAA, nor will he start 2012 there.  He's also only 21, so it's not like he's old and boarding on being a career minor league guy.

    Wilson had a 3.11 ERA in over 130 innings at AAA this year, not sure what else you wanted to see out of him.  He had 123 Ks to just 44 BB's.

    When did we get Zach Britton from the O's?  You certainly don't mean Drake Britton who's only in High A ball (although he certainly had a disappointing season).
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]While both franchises today are wearing the choke collar...the similarities of both teams collapse are striking.... We lose Buccholz & Matsuska they lose Hanson & Jurrjens... We had Lackey they had Lowe... Tim Hudson is the only starter on either staff to pitch 200 or more innings... Both pens imploaded in September from the weight of having to carry the load all year... So if we learned anything and that is you can't have too much pitching, but we can also see cleary that when a team loses 2/5th of it's starting rotation it's a recipe for disaster... very interesting...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    We lose Dice K........Sure!!! He would have saved our bullpen?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Point 1:
    Where are all the guys who said hitting counts more than pitching?

    Point 2:
    If Tb wins it all, will softy admit they didn't "go away" or will he find a creative new way to move the goalpost?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Softone just said if Theo is retained, he'll come down on him 10 times harder than he did w/Wake.
    So, there's UR answer.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Firewind. Show Firewind's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Back to the OP:  It didn't win for the Giants this year.  They mirrored the Red Sox.  The Sox had three players finish in the top 10 batting average (and Pedroia just outside), but no pitchers in the money box.  The Giants had three pitchers in the NL ERA top 10, but no hitters, practically all season long.  (It was actually amazing that they kept bobbing to the top of their division, until almost the end.)

    The old saying:  "It's nine tenths hitting and 9/10 pitching."
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]From MLB Trade Rumors: ESPN's Jim Bowden (Insider subscription req'd) agrees that the Braves don't need to shake up their roster and suggests that Atlanta could be one of the top suitors for Jose Reyes . Bowden also notes that the Braves have fewer looming issues than their September collapse partners in Boston: "While age and a barren farm system dim the Red Sox's upside going into 2012, the Braves have a much brighter outlook." http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Jim Bowden isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, believe me, I know from my time following the Reds. He made the same kind of bad decisions people are criticizing Theo for, and can be very petty and childish.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    BTW......Jim Bowden traded Paul O'Niel straight up for Roberto Kelly in 1993. Enough said? The Reds were never the same, and unfortunately for the Red Sox, neither were the Yankees.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    In Response to Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins":
    [QUOTE]Softone just said if Theo is retained, he'll come down on him 10 times harder than he did w/Wake. So, there's UR answer.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    He blames Theo for constucting this team in one breath, but then chastizes TB for "backing into the playoffs" due to the Sox collapse.

    If he expected the Sox to win over 94 games, it means he thought we had a good team on paper (making Theo not as bad as he has said).

    If he expected the Sox to have less than 94 wins, then that backs up his position that Theo built a bad team on paper, but then it goes against his position that TB would "go away" by winning 90-92 games.

    He's trying to have it both ways. 

    He's got excuses for everything:

    TB won 91 games, because the Yanks tanked (like that never happens at the end of the year when teams have clinched).

    SD got Kelly and Rizzo not Jake and Jed, but softy was still "right", because he just blamed the SD GM for not pushing hard enough hard enough to get who he thought they could have and should have gotten.

    I projected 90-92 wins for TB and a lower than normal WC win total this year, yet softy wants you guys to believe he was right in projecting 87-89 Tb wins and a 94+ win WC team.

    I projected Kelly, Rizzo and Bowden to SD for AGon last year... way before softy claimed AGon was a 50-50 chance of being traded at all. I was off by one player. I also projected that AGon would sign in early April. Softy said AGon was a 50-50 chance to be dealt last winter. He said the Sox would trade jake and jed for him if a deal happened, and he said AGon would test free agency. When all was said and done, he still claims he was right and I was wrong.

    You can see why I call him a clown. He says that is "bullying", but to me, I am being kind by calling him that.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Red Sox and Braves "Why pitching wins"

    Too damn kind.
    Clown is a reference to one who makes us laugh.
    He is more like Emmett Kelly.
     

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