Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wvwc61. Show wvwc61's posts

    Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    After collapsing and falling apart in September, pitching seemed to be  the main cause of the collapse. Why aren't the Sox willing to spend some money to sign a reliable 4th starter such as Karoda, Oswalt, etc? I did hear Luchino say at the winter meetings that they prefer to stick close to the luxury tax borderline but  if they have to go over to improve the team, they will and that would more likely occur this year rather than next year. Wouldn't obtaining Kuroda for a year(he did say he would sign for a year) significantly improve the Sox especially since Buchholtz is not a healthy guarantee and Bard is a crap shoot at best as a starter?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    It's all about the money

    Theo blew 51 million dollars

    Lackey - DL @ $14 million

    Dice K DL @ 10 million

    Jenks DL/Useless @ 6 million

    Crawford LVP @ 21 million

    Not to mention the enourmous contract he gave AGone when he had other options
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Not to mention the enourmous contract he gave AGone when he had other options
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Which other options are you referring to exactly?  An unproven option in Rizzo?  Overpaying Beltre so Youk could stay at 1B?

    The AGon extension looks like a steal after this offseason.  $100M less than Pujols, and likely less than Fielder as well.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard : Which other options are you referring to exactly?  An unproven option in Rizzo?  Overpaying Beltre so Youk could stay at 1B? The AGon extension looks like a steal after this offseason.  $100M less than Pujols, and likely less than Fielder as well.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]
    Adrian Gonzalez is a fine player ... and his seven-year contract may well be a better investment than the 10-year contract for Albert Pujols.

    However, one could argue that a five-year, $80 million contract for Adrian Beltre (5.7 WAR* in 2011 and 12.7 WAR over last two seasons) is a wiser investment than a seven-year, $154 million contract for Gonzalez (6.6 WAR in 2011 and 11.8 WAR over last two years). Each player will be the same ages in the last three years of their respective contracts.

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]After collapsing and falling apart in September, pitching seemed to be  the main cause of the collapse. Why aren't the Sox willing to spend some money to sign a reliable 4th starter such as Karoda, Oswalt, etc? I did hear Luchino say at the winter meetings that they prefer to stick close to the luxury tax borderline but  if they have to go over to improve the team, they will and that would more likely occur this year rather than next year. Wouldn't obtaining Kuroda for a year(he did say he would sign for a year) significantly improve the Sox especially since Buchholtz is not a healthy guarantee and Bard is a crap shoot at best as a starter?
    Posted by wvwc61[/QUOTE]
       Right now Bard is an unknown, he could be just what the Sox need, or sent back to the bull-pen toresume his set-up role. I for one have no problem with this experiment, it's a good time to see if he can handle starters workload.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    We need starting pitching but there is no way I am paying 12 to 13 million for one year of service for either kuroda or Oswalt.  The decent FA's pitcher's that are left is Madson and E. Jackson.  We have already filled one need and I am not to keen on Jackson.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard : Adrian Gonzalez is a fine player ... and his seven-year contract may well be a better investment than the 10-year contract for Albert Pujols. However, one could argue that a five-year, $80 million contract for Adrian Beltre (5.7 WAR* in 2011 and 12.7 WAR over last two seasons) is a wiser investment than a seven-year, $154 million contract for Gonzalez (6.6 WAR in 2011 and 11.8 WAR over last two years). Each player will be the same ages in the last three years of their respective contracts. * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    I don't agree.  Beltre carries far more injury risk than AGon (despite AGon's shoulder prior to the 2011 season).  AGon also plays a less physically demanding position, which should allow him to remain more effective later into his career than Beltre, who plays with reckless abandon.  Beltre's WAR total for the past 2 seasons is dramatically impacted by his only healthy season since 2006 (as defined by 150+ games played).  Last season he only played in 124 games.  AGon has consistently played 160+ games per season, only narrowly missing that mark last year with 159 games.  

    Since you brought up the fact that they will be the same age at the end of their respective deals, I feel I should point out that the Rangers are getting less of Beltre's prime in that contract and they aren't saving much on a per year basis.  Beltre's making $16M per year (AAV) with a player option at the end of the deal for another $16M, while AGon is only making $6M more at $22M AAV.  That $6M per year roughly equates to 1 WAR per season over the course of their contracts.

    AGon is more likely to continue to be a centerpiece of the lineup and defense than Beltre is at the end of their respective deals. While AGon also reduces the need for a quality backup for his position.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    Tim Wastefield is in hot demand, but offering a million or two might do it.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]


    Why didn't Hill mention the $48 mi. - 4 yrs. that his Mariners squandered on Silva?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    The only thing that worries me, other than health, is his dependence on the defense.  While he doesn't walk people, he doesn't strike them out either (career 4.0 K/9).  That scares me while we have Scutty and Youk on the left side of the infield.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    Yes, 2005. And his WHIP was still 1.17 with a H/9 of 10, and a whopping 3.4 K/9.
    He is a contol pitcher but has only eclipsed 200 innings twice in his career.
    How about 2008 when he 4-15 with a 6.36 ERA?

    And you want to get rid of Wake?
    I'll admit, he had a decent year last albeit in the NL.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    like I said.....actually wait I didn't say it.  It's a gamble, a low risk gamble. 

    I know he rely's on the defense, but he also get his fair share of ground balls as well.  At least make the other team work for it, its frustrating watching guy like Dice-K walk everyone.....then all it takes is one hit to clear the bases.

    I don't expect this guy to be our savior, but he is here on a minor league contract,  if he gives us something close to one of his better seasons then he is a very viable option for the back of the rotation. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard : Yes, 2005. And his WHIP was still 1.17 with a H/9 of 10, and a whopping 3.4 K/9. He is a contol pitcher but has only eclipsed 200 innings twice in his career. How about 2008 when he 4-15 with a 6.36 ERA? And you want to get rid of Wake? I'll admit, he had a decent year last albeit in the NL.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Are you Harv51?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]like I said.....actually wait I didn't say it.  It's a gamble, a low risk gamble.  I know he rely's on the defense, but he also get his fair share of ground balls as well.  At least make the other team work for it, its frustrating watching guy like Dice-K walk everyone.....then all it takes is one hit to clear the bases. I don't expect this guy to be our savior, but he is here on a minor league contract,  if he gives us something close to one of his better seasons then he is a very viable option for the back of the rotation. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    I see where you're coming from and no harm in the minor league deal, I just have a hard time seeing him get the call ahead of Miller, who is basically the opposite of Silva (high K and BB rates, with potential to become something).  Overall, I'd rather have Silva on this deal, than not having him, but I'm not expecting much, if anything, out of him at the MLB level.  He hasn't done anything in the AL since 2007, and wasn't even able to post passable numbers for a #5 guy playing half his games at Safeco.  I wish him the best, but I'm not expecting it from him.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    Yanks fan never expected much out of Colon and Garcia neither last winter.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard :  He is a contol pitcher but has only eclipsed 200 innings twice in his career. 
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Is 200 IP really that important from a #5 guy?  He passed 180 IP in 4 consecutive seasons.  The guy has his flaws, but he's shown the ability to stay healthy in the past.  We don't need 200 innings out of our opening day #5, we need someone to hold down the fort till Dice comes back.  It'd be great to get more than that, but that's all we need.  The Sox actually have a decent amount of starter depth for 2012 even removing Lackey from the list:

    1) Beckett
    2) Lester
    3) Buch
    4) Bard
    5) Dice (after July)
    6) A. Miller
    7) Silva
    8) Alex Wilson
    9) Tazawa
    10) Duckworth
    11) Pena

    It isn't perfect, but they have minor league depth pretty well taken care of for 2012.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    I agree JB-3.  This IS just one of those low cost "maybe it will pay off and if it doesn't...ehhh" kinda deals.  Regardless I like Gamble, I see him battling Miller/Doubront/Aceves and Bard for the 4th 5th spots in the rotation. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]I agree JB-3.  This IS just one of those low cost "maybe it will pay off and if it doesn't...ehhh" kinda deals.  Regardless I like Gamble, I see him battling Miller/Doubront/Aceves and Bard for the 4th 5th spots in the rotation. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    Doubront is another guy I'm just lukewarm on.  I agree he'll be given a chance to fight for the rotation spot, but I see him in the pen long term. I think Aceves stays in the pen, to piggyback off of Bard's early starts
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]After collapsing and falling apart in September, pitching seemed to be  the main cause of the collapse. Why aren't the Sox willing to spend some money to sign a reliable 4th starter such as Karoda, Oswalt, etc? I did hear Luchino say at the winter meetings that they prefer to stick close to the luxury tax borderline but  if they have to go over to improve the team, they will and that would more likely occur this year rather than next year. Wouldn't obtaining Kuroda for a year(he did say he would sign for a year) significantly improve the Sox especially since Buchholtz is not a healthy guarantee and Bard is a crap shoot at best as a starter?
    Posted by wvwc61[/QUOTE]

    The sox like crapshoots for the 4, 5 and long relief spots.

    They have huge money wrapped up in the rotation, so throwing money at the problem doesn't seem to have worked in the past.

    They need a long term solution to the rotation.  Dice-K is gone after this year, and who knows what they'll get with Lackey in '13. 

    They'll gamble again this year.  They'll use Bard and Aceves to start the season, see how Dice-K comes along, and wait until the trading deadline. 

    That gives Bard and Aceves a genuine opportunity to succeed.  If one faulters, maybe Dice_k will ready by the trading deadline.  If Dice-k isn't ready or both Bard and Aceves faulter, then they try to make a trade.  By that time, they'll see how Crawford is doing.  If he has a bounce back season, then they trade Ellsbury.  If he doesn't have a bounce back season, then they include crawford in a trade for an overpaid pitcher or a decent pitcher plus an overpriced outfielder.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard : Why didn't Hill mention the $48 mi. - 4 yrs. that his Mariners squandered on Silva?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
    Because you beat me to it.Laughing
    Carlos Silva is a reasonable low-risk signing for the Red Sox.

    The Red Sox have issues to address, but they're not "desperate" for anything.

    I don't expect pike to broaden his horizons, but here is an interesting historical read on the Mariners:
    http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33565888
    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/homegrown
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ArtWikle. Show ArtWikle's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    Well I do not agree that Lackey is a bust. I think lackey had some shoulder issues before but they got worse in Boston. Lets see what he looks like in Sept and then in spring of 13. I think he can win in FEnway. I am also a believer instead of a naysayer on Carl Crawford. The way the team started last year he put pressure on himself and developed bad habits that did not go away. Bouncing him from batting 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 6th did not help either. Put him in at 3 and let him hit.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from never1954. Show never1954's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    personally I think that AGon will probably be the one large contract that when all is said and done was worth it.  Great signing in my opinion.

    As for our pitching staff, we are stuck in luxury land....the low cost signings and our up and comers are going to find that this just might be the year they can bust out.  I certainly hope that kind of challenge brings out some great stories for the RS and RS fans.  Pitchers that pitch to contact?  what a concept...I just hope.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from DeweyCBoston. Show DeweyCBoston's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    This is simply brainwashing, dude, sorry but Silva has a 4.68 lifetime ERA, so he gives up plenty of runs. Maybe he doesnt walk em in...similar to Lackeys signing at lower dollars,He isnt a fourth starter by any means, unless yall liked the slide of 2011 or you consider Lackey a #3 starter, Ive learned the difference.

    WE NEED OSWALT or KURODA, Ihave little doubt. IF Dice K returns to earlier form, the rotation will be solid.

    Theo wouldve been a hero again IF Lackey & Crawford panned out...
     Theres time for Carl, NOT for Lackey IMHO.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DeweyCBoston. Show DeweyCBoston's posts

    Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard

    In Response to Re: Sox desperately need 4th starter more proven than Bard:
    [QUOTE]Carlos Silva might just be the bargain of the year that saves us from the 5 hole.  Tell me you aren't impressed with 9 walks in one full season of starting???
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    I would be IF his lifetime ERA was under 4.00 AND its not even close.
     

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