Strong Up The Middle

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
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    Where were all of these Ellsbury fans when the forum was full of regular posters who claimed that he was injury-prone, didn't want to play, ran a bad route to the ball, and got a bad jump. They even relished that his UZR metric was bad for a year. Now he signed a huge contract with the Yankees at $22 mil. per year. Not bad for a player that many hated here. 

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    I think that,  around baseball, Ellsbury is regarded as one of the best all around players in the game.  Quite a few on this board did not see it that way. ( Not talking about Softlaw )  Personally, I think he is the type of player that makes a big difference in winning or losing. To under rate the importance of speed in sports is to be ignorant of reality. Speed, along with ability to play the game, is extremely vital. The countless reminders of his below average arm are rather boring and irrelevant. How often has that been a factor in winning or losing ? Bradley has a world of potential, and we will need him to live up to that, but Ellsbury will be tough to replace.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
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    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Where were all of these Ellsbury fans when the forum was full of regular posters who claimed that he was injury-prone, didn't want to play, ran a bad route to the ball, and got a bad jump. They even relished that his UZR metric was bad for a year. Now he signed a huge contract with the Yankees at $22 mil. per year. Not bad for a player that many hated here. 

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    I think that,  around baseball, Ellsbury is regarded as one of the best all around players in the game.  Quite a few on this board did not see it that way. ( Not talking about Softlaw )  Personally, I think he is the type of player that makes a big difference in winning or losing. To under rate the importance of speed in sports is to be ignorant of reality. Speed, along with ability to play the game, is extremely vital. The countless reminders of his below average arm are rather boring and irrelevant. How often has that been a factor in winning or losing ? Bradley has a world of potential, and we will need him to live up to that, but Ellsbury will be tough to replace.

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    I agree. He will be hard to replace. We should look for JBJ to be Jacoby.

    Ellsbury did a lot of things not captured by stats, and I brought them up several times, but the fact is, he did have a weak arm. He used to have too many late breaks and wrong angles taken, but he improved on that over the years. I realize OPS is not everything, but Jacoby finished 7th on his own team in OPS just barely ahead of Drew and Gomes. High OBP and SLG% is a big factor in winning.

    To be fair, Jacoby's 3 year OPS of .825 is higher than Pedey's.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to tvfrank's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:

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    C: Better defense- probably worse offense

    SS: Better offense- worse defense

    CF: Same or possibly better defense- worse offense

    2B: Same-same

     

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    I don't agree with C: Better Defense Better Offense. Salty was a good teammate, but I won't miss him not being in the SOX line-up.

     

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    I doubt AJP is going to do better offensively than Salty's 2013 season.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    Ellsbury was/is as good as advertised...super defense, super stealer, and now super villain.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    Boggy is known as a 'decent' defender.....which means average.

    I seriously doubt Bogey ends up in the top 20 SSs in UZR/150 this year.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    Ells will be missed, a lot.  But, on the other hand, JBJ will become a better OBP guy than Ells, maybe sooner than one would expect, and will show a better arm in center.  He also brings a lot of positive intangibles, wants to win and knows how to win.  Even when he's in a batting slump he contributes in other ways, whether it's working a walk or making a throw or running the bases, to winning.  A great baseball IQ is what I see in him.

     

     

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ells will be missed, a lot.  But, on the other hand, JBJ will become a better OBP guy than Ells, maybe sooner than one would expect, and will show a better arm in center.  He also brings a lot of positive intangibles, wants to win and knows how to win.  Even when in he's in a batting slump he contributes in other ways, whether it's working a walk or making a throw or running the bases, to winning.  A great baseball IQ is what I see in him.

     He is supposed to have great baseball instincts. I hope the reports are right.

     

     

     

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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
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    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
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    In response to Beantowne's comment:
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    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:
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    In response to youkillus' comment:
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    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.

     

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    Nobody ever came back from 3 games down before in the playoffs... how did that work out?

     

    In CF we have a gold glove caliber defender.  Both AJP and Ross are superior defenders to Salty.  The only position that we lose out a bit of defense with is short, but his offense is at least as good with the upside of league best.

    I like our chances

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    So we have better offense at SS? Big whoop.

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    It is a big whoop, whenever a team can get above average production from a middle infielder or a catcher it's a competitive advantage. Bogaerts projects to be a middle of the order bat. Which is why I've said all winter that the Yanks signing of McCan is a greater upgrade for them then either Beltran or Ellsbury. Here's the deal while Bogaerts is unlikely to ever be a gold glove SS, that doesn't mean he'll be a liability. If the the Red Sox felt that Bogaerts did not have the tools to play SS, given his upside potential as a hitter. They'd have moved him to 3rd or the outfiled in A Ball. So if they open the season with him there, we have to trust that Cherinton and Farrel both believe that he's ready and able. 

    If we turn back the clock, this debate reminds me of 2005 when we had another can't miss SS in our system, who's bio then was very similar to Bogaerts now. His name is Hanley Ramirez who's evolved into a respectable defensive SS after years of speculation that he would be moved to 3B or the OF. I'm not implying that Hanley is a gold glover by any means, but he doesn't hurt his team and the sum of his parts makes him an above average player at his position. 

    That said, if they sign Drew, then it's clear that both don't see Bogaerts as having the ability to be an everyday big league SS. If that happens, they'll move him to third to be the everyday third baseman, leaving Middlebrooks the odd man out. A senerio that will play itself out in the next month.

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    It's not a competitive advantage when his talents are more geared towards his offensive abilities as opposed to his defensive abilities at SS.  As I've said, I value defense over offense at that position. And as for Cherrington and Farrell believing or not believing he's able, management may just not want to sign a contract for Drew. They're dealing with the players they have. You have to know that plays into their confidence.

    Hanley Ramirez is more of a liability for any team. And it has nothing to do with his talents, which, apparently, are exceptional. It does say something when you use the word "evolved", however. You couldn't be talking about this season then.

    As for Middlebrooks, it wouldn't hurt to have Bogaerts given more time in AAA -- unless something happens, which is entirely possible.

    IMO they had the best SS, and possibly, over miniscule money issues, they will lose him. And it makes no sense to me.

     

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    Kim we can agree to disagree on what constitutes a competitive advantage. i respect your opinion, we just differ on the value of the difference between a gold glove SS that strikes out 135 times and hits .250 vs one that makes the routine play, look routine and is among the leaders at his position with the bat. Playing for the major league minimum, freeing up resources that can be used to address other needs. Which is what young Bogaerts projects to be..Nomar Garciaparra comes to mind so too does Derek Jeter. Please don't misinterpret my supporting them going with young Bogaerts, as I don't value defense at SS and would play him there even if he had hands of stone, cleary that's not the case. I trust that Cherington and Farrel (I think they've earned that), will do what they think is in the best interest of the team And if they see Bogaerts defense as a fatal flaw to our chances to field a championship team. there's no way they'd do that and the kid would already have been moved...

    Regarding Drew and his status with the Red Sox. Money and length of contract are certainly part of the why they haven't resigned him. It's also why he hasn't resigned with them... Bogaerts being ready to take the next step in his development is another. When you add to that the value of the draft pick they'll recieve if Drew signs elsewhere. As much as I too would like us to sign Drew (remeber they offered him a one year 14M qualifier that he and Scott Darth Vadar Boras chose to decline), because I too think the guy is a very good ball player and in the near term. It's easier to project the sum of the parts with Drew and Bogaerts on left side being greater than, one with Middlebrooks and Bogaerts. A conundrum that only the parties in control can effect change. 

    regarding Hanley, i get that the kid has had his share of issues....My use of the term evolved implies improvement, which is often overlooked by many on this board. With work young players can improve and many do, few arrive at the big league level polished defensive players, unless that the key tangible that helped to propel them through the system (Igelsias).

    I recall after his rookie season many on this board we're skeptical of Ellsbury's ability to play centerfield, using his UZR ratings as evidence and pining for the return of Coco Crisp with work he's now considered among the best defensive centerfielders in the game. 

     

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    Fair enough, Bean, and thank you, I respect your opinion as well. I've always been about strong defense over offense at SS, catcher and playing RF. It will probably never change. I do realize, however, that you're saying you don't believe it will be a significant difference at SS. I think Scott Darth Vadar Boras (hilarious btw) really wants Bogaerts to play, so representing Drew for the same position doesn't look good for Drew. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite us if anyone plays poorly, or gets injured. We will definitely miss having him cover the middle as well as he does.

    As for Hanley, he was a great player and, probably, treated like a god at such a young age that I believe it just went to his head. Hard to undo that. I know some posters thought we shouldn't have traded him, but I think he would have been a disruptive presense on the team. And Inglesias' teammates are describing him in the same way, and probably for the same reasons. Interestingly enough, as good as he is, I don't get that vibe at all from Bogaerts. Lucky us.

    And FTR I'm amazed that anyone was criticizing Ellsbury's abilities. I could be wrong, but he really seemed like a star to me from the beginning. I loved Coco and would have loved to have kept him, but Ellsbury was not a downgrade by any stretch of the imagination.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    And FTR I'm amazed that anyone was criticizing Ellsbury's abilities. I could be wrong, but he really seemed like a star to me from the beginning. I loved Coco and would have loved to have kept him, but Ellsbury was not a downgrade by any stretch of the imagination.

    There were a few posters who seemed to be hypercritical of Ellsbury, but the vast majority of us knew and know he is an excellent player. I'm not sure why it amazes you that a few of us, who repsect the value of Ellsbury, also pointed out a couple areas of weakness.

    He has a terrible arm.

    He used to get late breaks and take wrong angles on balls hit to CF. He improved in this area.

    He used to get thrown out a lot on the basepaths, but improved tehre as well.

    He has to have the lowest OPS per dollar of any large contract ever signed.

     

    Those are not huge weaknesses, except maybe the OPS part. 

     

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