Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    While this ownership group was busy patting themselves on the back for winning a 2nd World Series in 2007, they planned pregame ceremony after pregame ceremony. Counted attendance figures as the ( bogus) streak continued, watched as souvenier sales went ballistic (like the #46 Ellsbury jerseys that outnumber the #2 Ellsbury jerseys), and figured the fans would turn out in record numbers to be at Fenway for the 100th year celebration.

    What they failed to notice ( or chose to ignore) is that this team had no superstars. They hired a rookie GM to replace the guy who once was considered the second coming of you know who and they brought in a manager who hasn't managed an MLB team since Cal Ripken was the biggest name in baseball.

    Basically, blinded by success, they forgot that ballgames are won by players who want to win and who have world class talent. Say what you want about "dirt dogs" ( and you do need these types) but superstar talent wins championships. This team had superstars, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, a younger David Ortiz. These are the superstars that formed the backbone of the 2004 championship. A motivated Josh Beckett and a true professional , Mike Lowell along with many of the same stars from 2004 propelled the 2007 team back to the top.

    But as the superstar talent left ( or got lazy....Beckett) the ownership failed to notice that they were left with a team mostly made up of aging stars (Ortiz,Wakefield , Varitek), bench players ( Ross, Aviles,Podesednick, Sweeney) and unproven kids ( Nava, Dubront, Lavarnway). Not to mention a ragtag rotation with many castoffs,( Cook, Aceves,Atchison,Morales, Melancon).

    To the credit of these players many have preformed very well( Ross, Atchison, Morales Podsednick, Aviles) but you are only going to get so far without leadership of superstar like players.  Frankly they didn't draft enough talent. The homegrown players are great additions to a team but few are All Star type players.

    This ownership group inherited a team with many superstars in place , they did a great job of adding the missing pieces, but when faced with building a team that is devoid of ( or needed to replace ) star type players they failed miserably.

    I think they got caught up in yesterday and stopped looking at tomorrow. Blinded by the fans and money pouring in , they forgot the Red Sox fans are not now going to settle for paying sky high prices for a second rate team with second rate coaching.

    I fear it's too late to build a winner any time soon and we are in for at least 3-5 years of missing playoff action. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see a strong backbone of a winner here, and you don't get that through free agency and trades.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomjoad544. Show tomjoad544's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    While this ownership group was busy patting themselves on the back for winning a 2nd World Series in 2007, they planned pregame ceremony after pregame ceremony. Counted attendance figures as the ( bogus) streak continued, watched as souvenier sales went ballistic (like the #46 Ellsbury jerseys that outnumber the #2 Ellsbury jerseys), and figured the fans would turn out in record numbers to be at Fenway for the 100th year celebration.

    What they failed to notice ( or chose to ignore) is that this team had no superstars. They hired a rookie GM to replace the guy who once was considered the second coming of you know who and they brought in a manager who hasn't managed an MLB team since Cal Ripken was the biggest name in baseball.

    Basically, blinded by success, they forgot that ballgames are won by players who want to win and who have world class talent. Say what you want about "dirt dogs" ( and you do need these types) but superstar talent wins championships. This team had superstars, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, a younger David Ortiz. These are the superstars that formed the backbone of the 2004 championship. A motivated Josh Beckett and a true professional , Mike Lowell along with many of the same stars from 2004 propelled the 2007 team back to the top.

    But as the superstar talent left ( or got lazy....Beckett) the ownership failed to notice that they were left with a team mostly made up of aging stars (Ortiz,Wakefield , Varitek), bench players ( Ross, Aviles,Podesednick, Sweeney) and unproven kids ( Nava, Dubront, Lavarnway). Not to mention a ragtag rotation with many castoffs,( Cook, Aceves,Atchison,Morales, Melancon).

    To the credit of these players many have preformed very well( Ross, Atchison, Morales Podsednick, Aviles) but you are only going to get so far without leadership of superstar like players.  Frankly they didn't draft enough talent. The homegrown players are great additions to a team but few are All Star type players.

    This ownership group inherited a team with many superstars in place , they did a great job of adding the missing pieces, but when faced with building a team that is devoid of ( or needed to replace ) star type players they failed miserably.

    I think they got caught up in yesterday and stopped looking at tomorrow. Blinded by the fans and money pouring in , they forgot the Red Sox fans are not now going to settle for paying sky high prices for a second rate team with second rate coaching.

    I fear it's too late to build a winner any time soon and we are in for at least 3-5 years of missing playoff action. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see a strong backbone of a winner here, and you don't get that through free agency and trades.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree- but until the Sheep stop going to the run down  dump just to go to the amazing

    Fenway - they really do not care.  This is a business to them and as long as they make $ they will not truly care no matter what they say.   I was at a concert there and people told me to sit down as they wanted to see the park.  When they move to  a new place and it is only full because the team is good will this team once again suceed.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    While this ownership group was busy patting themselves on the back for winning a 2nd World Series in 2007, they planned pregame ceremony after pregame ceremony. Counted attendance figures as the ( bogus) streak continued, watched as souvenier sales went ballistic (like the #46 Ellsbury jerseys that outnumber the #2 Ellsbury jerseys), and figured the fans would turn out in record numbers to be at Fenway for the 100th year celebration.

    What they failed to notice ( or chose to ignore) is that this team had no superstars. They hired a rookie GM to replace the guy who once was considered the second coming of you know who and they brought in a manager who hasn't managed an MLB team since Cal Ripken was the biggest name in baseball.

    Basically, blinded by success, they forgot that ballgames are won by players who want to win and who have world class talent. Say what you want about "dirt dogs" ( and you do need these types) but superstar talent wins championships. This team had superstars, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, a younger David Ortiz. These are the superstars that formed the backbone of the 2004 championship. A motivated Josh Beckett and a true professional , Mike Lowell along with many of the same stars from 2004 propelled the 2007 team back to the top.

    But as the superstar talent left ( or got lazy....Beckett) the ownership failed to notice that they were left with a team mostly made up of aging stars (Ortiz,Wakefield , Varitek), bench players ( Ross, Aviles,Podesednick, Sweeney) and unproven kids ( Nava, Dubront, Lavarnway). Not to mention a ragtag rotation with many castoffs,( Cook, Aceves,Atchison,Morales, Melancon).

    To the credit of these players many have preformed very well( Ross, Atchison, Morales Podsednick, Aviles) but you are only going to get so far without leadership of superstar like players.  Frankly they didn't draft enough talent. The homegrown players are great additions to a team but few are All Star type players.

    This ownership group inherited a team with many superstars in place , they did a great job of adding the missing pieces, but when faced with building a team that is devoid of ( or needed to replace ) star type players they failed miserably.

    I think they got caught up in yesterday and stopped looking at tomorrow. Blinded by the fans and money pouring in , they forgot the Red Sox fans are not now going to settle for paying sky high prices for a second rate team with second rate coaching.

    I fear it's too late to build a winner any time soon and we are in for at least 3-5 years of missing playoff action. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see a strong backbone of a winner here, and you don't get that through free agency and trades.

    [/QUOTE]


    I see no reason why a team with the resources like the Red Sox should take 3-5 years to get back to the playoffs.

    This team was terrible in 2001. The clubhouse was a nightmare.


    The won 93 games games in 2002 and missed the playoff because the Yankees won 103 and the Wc Angels won 99.


    I don't have to tell you what happened in '03 and '04.

    If the current ownership can't get the team back to playoff contention by '14, they have serious issues and should sell the team.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    ZILL MANY TIMES I AGREE WITH YOU BUT YOU ARE PICKING AND CHOOSING WHAT FITS YOUR THEORY.

    THIS TEAM WAS SET TO WIN THIS YEAR COMING OUT OF ST

    AGON, PEDROIA, AVILES, YOUK, CC, JAKE, SWEENEY/ROSS, SALTY/SHOPACH, PUNTO, ORTIZ, KALISH

    BECKETT, LESTER, BUCHOLZ, BARD, ACEVES, MELANCON, BAILEY, PADILLA, ATCHINSON, ALBERS, MILLER

    tHESE PLAYERS ABOVE WERE A DAMN GOOD TEAM WE HOPED

    HOWEVER..........

    CC NEVER MADE IT OUT OF ST, NO ONE KNEW THAT JAKE WOULD BE OUT AFTER THE FIRST WEEK, THEN YOUK, THEN PEDROIA, ETC....

    NO ONE KNEW THAT BAILEY WOULD BE OUT, THAT MELANCON, BARD, LESTER, BECKETT AND EVEN BUCHOLZ WOULD SUK THEN BUCHOLZ WAS ON DL.

    THIS TEAM WAS A DAMN GOOD TEAM BASED UPON WHAT WAS COMING OUT OF ST. THEN IT ALL WENT TO HE11 IN A HAND BASKET. MANY OF THE GUYS YOU MENTION WERE NOT IN THE EVERY DAY PLANS UNTIL GUYS GOT HURT OR DID NOT PERFORM.

    THEY SIGNED BYRD THEY USED 56 PLAYERS A RECORD THEY HAD A RECORD OF GUYS ON THE DL

    PLEASE USE ALL THE FACTS NOT JUST THOSE THAT FIT YOUR THEORY

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.



    It's not going to be worth a pretty penny in a few years...

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    I think with the right moves, better health and players playing to their potential, theres no reason they cant compete next year...I look more towards 2014, but believe they can be competitive next year. 3-5 years with this teams resources? Sorry, I dont buy that...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    "NO ONE KNEW THAT BAILEY WOULD BE OUT, THAT MELANCON, BARD, LESTER, BECKETT AND EVEN BUCHOLZ WOULD SUK THEN BUCHOLZ WAS ON DL."

    I guess I am left wondering if virtually your entire pitching staff "suk", how could anyone have reasonably expected this team to be a good one?  I think the real problem was many of us ( obviously including management)  simply wanted to believe that Sept of 2011 was a fluke, and that the same people who could not get the job done then, were somehow going to get it done this year.   I mean no matter how long you look at a dandelion wishing it was a rose, does not mean it ever will be one.  

    Of course when you add to the mess the fact that we had so many key people on the DL,  I can see that it's fair to ask, what if??  But just as fair is the Yankees had plenty of DL issues themselves, yet still finished as usual at the top.  

    So did the pitching staff really suk, or were they simply who they really are?   I more suspect what you have seen now for two seasons is pretty much about all you are going to get from these guys.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    Jim from Florida thinks I am wrong. He thinks this team was set to win coming out of spring training. David Ortiz does not agree with Jim from Florida. He does not blame Bobby Valentine. Ortiz thinks there are "bad apples" still that must go...."apples" that have been contaminated by the ones already traded away ( see news story from 10/ 6 / 12). I did not see any great improvement in the team that collapsed in 2011 and the team that stunk in 2012. Did you seriously think a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz and whoever would compete for a playoff spot.....man, you have more faith than I do in these three. Buchholz had a decent run but the other two were pretty horrible. An outfield made up of backups, injury prone players and unproven kids? Where is your power going to come from? besides Salty, Ortiz and Gonzalez , you had no real power hitters here. Take a look at Baltimore. They have built a formidable team by drafting and trading for young talented superstars...Markakis, Jones, Wieters and Johnson. They are succeeding without a real ace , they don't even have a rotation with household names.

    This team's problems were not properly addressed last offseason. Ownership thought all they needed was a new manager chosing to ignore the real problem and try to use Francona as a scapegoat.

    My advice to ownership: spend less time counting your money and planning more celebrations and get down to the business of putting talented players who want to win on the field. Take a good looks at BALTIMORE as a model of what we should be aimimng for.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    In response to tetonman50's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "NO ONE KNEW THAT BAILEY WOULD BE OUT, THAT MELANCON, BARD, LESTER, BECKETT AND EVEN BUCHOLZ WOULD SUK THEN BUCHOLZ WAS ON DL."

    I guess I am left wondering if virtually your entire pitching staff "suk", how could anyone have reasonably expected this team to be a good one?  I think the real problem was many of us ( obviously including management)  simply wanted to believe that Sept of 2011 was a fluke, and that the same people who could not get the job done then, were somehow going to get it done this year.   I mean no matter how long you look at a dandelion wishing it was a rose, does not mean it ever will be one.  

    Of course when you add to the mess the fact that we had so many key people on the DL,  I can see that it's fair to ask, what if??  But just as fair is the Yankees had plenty of DL issues themselves, yet still finished as usual at the top.  

    So did the pitching staff really suk, or were they simply who they really are?   I more suspect what you have seen now for two seasons is pretty much about all you are going to get from these guys.

    [/QUOTE]


    It hasnt been 2 full years...Before last september Beckett and Lester were pitching very good. Besides 2012, Lester has been in Cy Young talks, has won 15+ games in every season, has given you 200+IP with no injury issues and has an ERA around 3.40...So I more suspect that that is who Lester really is, not what happened the last 1yr and 1 month...Buchholz did great after fully recovering for his back issue last year. He does needs to give this team 200IP next year though.

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Jim from Florida thinks I am wrong. He thinks this team was set to win coming out of spring training. David Ortiz does not agree with Jim from Florida. He does not blame Bobby Valentine. Ortiz thinks there are "bad apples" still that must go...."apples" that have been contaminated by the ones already traded away ( see news story from 10/ 6 / 12). I did not see any great improvement in the team that collapsed in 2011 and the team that stunk in 2012. Did you seriously think a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz and whoever would compete for a playoff spot.....man, you have more faith than I do in these three. Buchholz had a decent run but the other two were pretty horrible. An outfield made up of backups, injury prone players and unproven kids? Where is your power going to come from? besides Salty, Ortiz and Gonzalez , you had no real power hitters here. Take a look at Baltimore. They have built a formidable team by drafting and trading for young talented superstars...Markakis, Jones, Wieters and Johnson. They are succeeding without a real ace , they don't even have a rotation with household names.

    This team's problems were not properly addressed last offseason. Ownership thought all they needed was a new manager chosing to ignore the real problem and try to use Francona as a scapegoat.

    My advice to ownership: spend less time counting your money and planning more celebrations and get down to the business of putting talented players who want to win on the field. Take a good looks at BALTIMORE as a model of what we should be aimimng for.

    [/QUOTE]
     

    Not that I disagree with what you are saying to a certain extent, but If the Sox got top picks every year like the Rays, O's, M's and Royals they would have a pick of prospects that have a higher percentage of success.

    Not to say you cant find gems in the late rounds, But picking guys that are in the top 10 for a number of years in a row greatly increases your chances of success.

    What we should be aiming for is what won us the WSC in 07 and 04...Young guys in our system (player development), some veteran leadership, players that compliment other players and most of all personalities that can handle playing in Boston. If they could get a "star" player like when they had a combo of papi and Manny that would be great. they tried that with Gonzo but it didnt work.

    Weve got some great prospects that should start flowing up starting next year and really start flowing in 2014. Guys who look to have a legit chance at being successful in MLB.

    This ownership started paying more attention to "making a splash", selling bricks, sellout streaks and what the fans and media would think instead of just doing whats right for this team to have success. I hope theyve learned a little this past year and can go back to what made them a championship calibur team the last decade.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    I was watching the wildcard game last night and thought Saunders and Darvish both had great breaking pitches , neither relied heavily on a 95+ MPH fastball.

    I started thinking that not too many of the Red Sox pitchers have a decent curveball. Buchholz relies on his change-up , Lester is in love with his cutter.

    There is nothing like watching a slugger swing and miss as a pitcher drops the hammer on him when he is sitting on a fastball.

    I like to see more of our pitchers learn to pitch, instead of just trying to blow the fastball by hitters.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    Just want to say if this team was so bad why were they picked to win the WS by so many experts.

    As for bad apples Mr. Ortiz had better look in the mirror for the many times he has complained too the media and not kept it in the family.

    Beckett, Bucholz and Lester all had better pedigrees than every team except Tampa. Most can not still name the O's starters, Jays and the NYY have had success not brcause of their pitching but their offense.

    Zill you are basing your theory on what happened not what was supposed to be. It was supposed

    to be          not

    Ells            Byrd

    CC             Nava

    Pedroia       Pedroia

    Youk           Middlebrooks  then Ciracio or Punto or Lillebridge

    Agon           Agon

    Salty           Salty

    Aviles          Aviles

    Ortiz           ??????

    Ross          Ross

     

    What was supposed to be as I stated never happened and far too many injuries and poor years along with The mouth of a manager was the problem.

    I said it on another thread the trade was IMHO a major mistake just like I said not signing Paps was a mistake they will regret for 5 or more years.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    "It hasnt been 2 full years...Before last september Beckett and Lester were pitching very good. Besides 2012, Lester has been in Cy Young talks, has won 15+ games in every season, has given you 200+IP with no injury issues and has an ERA around 3.40...So I more suspect that that is who Lester really is, not what happened the last 1yr and 1 month...Buchholz did great after fully recovering for his back issue last year. He does needs to give this team 200IP next year though."

    Yes, 777 I should have phrased my comment more as you did above here.   It has NOT been two full years.  I think my thoughts were more centered around the fact that certain issues were obviously haunting the Sox in 2011, no matter how well they were doing a certain parts of the season.   Of course we all know what Sept 2011 looked like.

    While I agree Lester and Buchholz have obviously pitched well at times, it just seems to me they can also be so very inconsistant.  I do feel both are worth keeping, but something needs to be done in 2013 to help them be more consistent.

    As far as the rest of the 2012 pitching staff I really was left wondering exactly what was done in the off season last year to address it? With all we added (and subtracted) were we really any better than 2011?    Besides a new manager who I quite honestly believed was not the immediate problem in the first place,  and a new GM, who was going to be left dealing with the mess for quite a while the last one left beind himself. How was there any real improvement?

    So for me personally, I never really felt we had immediatly addresed our 2011 issues and therefore did not hold high hopes for this year.  Of course injuries aside I still never felt we could ever be as bad as we were this year.

    I am happy we made the deal we did with LA this year as a means to rid ourselves of one pitching problem, and a quarter of a billion dollars of obligation to just 3 players...... This stuff is just getting too nuts!!!!!!!!

    Maybe I should change my orginnal comments to say it's actually been more than 2 years since the ownership of the Red Sox has had the focus to make small but constant adjustments to help the team improve, including the pitching.   The end result is where we are now.  Man we sure lost our way after 2007 very quickly.

    Thanks for your accurate comment however.  

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Team ownership became blinded by the money pouring in.

    In response to pike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    As far as the rest of the 2012 pitching staff I really was left wondering exactly what was done in the off season last year to address it?

     

    Bard failed, was that predictable by the FO.  Lester and Beckett has off years. Bucholz took a few months to get his act together and then excelled. They were hopeful that TJ surgery would help Dice-K, it didn't. Bailey had a freak injury. Melancon never panned out. Aceves started out well and then faded. Jenks had unexpected surgeries and never returned.

    Tazawa, Mortenson, Atchisson, Miller, and and Morales excelled.

    The FO did make improvements and other happenings were unexpected or out of their control.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't disagree with your post, but I am more thinking that for a team that pitching was supposed to be a strong point, it certainly wasn't in 2012.    And pitching failing in Sept 2011 was a big part of that sorry month too.

    I question the logic of having two of our starting pitchers out with Tommy John surgery and  assuming that surgery will result in solving their problems.  I mean that surgery is still a gamble...........  I'd say expecting Bard to plug much of even part of that hole, was at best unrealistic.

    You mention Bailey. Even if Bailey had never been injured  at all, he was a replacment for Paps, so it's hard for me to see that as any FO improvement.  At best it would be no improvement there, and obviously as it turned out, it was a major step backwards.

    I am not claiming to know exactly what the problem was, is, or what the exact solution(s) will be, but it seems to me as I said in my other post that the Boston FO management has a tendency to look at a dandelion, and try to pass it off as a rose.       

    Yes unexpected things always happen, but they don't just happen to the Red Sox.  To me the difference between a real winner everyone else is how well management understands the depth of the problem they are looking at, and how effectively they deal with it.  It seems to me that in Boston managemnet places far too much faith in wishfull thinking.

    As the title of this thread suggests perhaps the flow of all the money that pours in from us loyal fans no matter what does somewhat blind their thinking..........  I bet if the flow of money slowed, their vison would quickly get a lot better.

    At this point there is far too much that needs to be done in the off season to give me much hope for next year......... But I will be happy with a solid rebuilding year.    My only point is that can only happen if management really understands how to rebuild the team, only after  it understands where the rebuilding in most needed.

     

     

     
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