The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    Watching the first 5 innings last night (then time to make the ....) I enjoyed the praise the guys in the booth were lavishing on several Sox.

    Then Sut made a comment (I think it was him) about how the Twinkies in the '04 draft picked the 2ndbaseman in the game, Ploeff(?), in the first round .... and it sounded like they made several 1st round picks. (I haven;t verified ...so could be wrong.)

    And then pointed out the Sox picked Pedey in the 2nd round....  Some one said, "Ooops!"

    But here's the thing.  If Tito had been like many managers when Pedey started terribly in the past, we might never hve gotten to know the little dynamo.  

    It happened with Papi coming back from injury ... it was tough, but The Spitter never waivered and Big Papi paid back in great ways.

    Pedey has been ROY, MVP, and might be MVP again if not for Ells and Adrian.

    I know we've suffered sometimes through the droughts, but Tito had built a reputation among players that tells them he will stick with them until things get better.  

    Here's a tip o' the hat to the guy who believes in his guys!

    And thanks for the return of Big Papi and the arrival of Pedey!!!!
     



     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    Tito stuck with a player this year who national media columnists were claiming was about to be dumped.

    He now leads all of MLB catchers in extra base hits / PA.

    Good job Theo and Tito on getting and sticking with Salty.

    266 PA /  29 XBH  =   9.2  Salty

    377 PA  / 33 XBH  =  11.4  McCann

    365  PA / 35 XBH  =   10.4 Avila
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

      AS DAD WOULD SAY.......  "SON, IN TITO I TRUST" !!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]Watching the first 5 innings last night (then time to make the ....) I enjoyed the praise the guys in the booth were lavishing on several Sox. Then Sut made a comment (I think it was him) about how the Twinkies in the '04 draft picked the 2ndbaseman in the game, Ploeff(?), in the first round .... and it sounded like they made several 1st round picks. (I haven;t verified ...so could be wrong.) And then pointed out the Sox picked Pedey in the 2nd round....  Some one said, "Ooops!" But here's the thing.  If Tito had been like many managers when Pedey started terribly in the past, we might never hve gotten to know the little dynamo.   It happened with Papi coming back from injury ... it was tough, but The Spitter never waivered and Big Papi paid back in great ways. Pedey has been ROY, MVP, and might be MVP again if not for Ells and Adrian. I know we've suffered sometimes through the droughts, but Tito had built a reputation among players that tells them he will stick with them until things get better.   Here's a tip o' the hat to the guy who believes in his guys! And thanks for the return of Big Papi and the arrival of Pedey!!!!    
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    I have always said Terry was the perfect manager for our club but leaving pitchers in too long has bit him more times than I can remember.  He has been doing better recently but last night I feel he was once again clinging to loyalty by keeping Wake in after the fifth.

    It worked out "this time" but it's still his biggest weakness at times.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]Tito stuck with a player this year who national media columnists were claiming was about to be dumped. He now leads all of MLB catchers in extra base hits / PA. Good job Theo and Tito on getting and sticking with Salty. 266 PA /  29 XBH  =   9.2  Salty 377 PA  / 33 XBH  =  11.4  McCann 365  PA / 35 XBH  =   10.4 Avila
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEO, TITO AND THE OWNERSHIP A 1ST CLASS GROUP !!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : I have always said Terry was the perfect manager for our club but leaving pitchers in too long has bit him more times than I can remember.  He has been doing better recently but last night I feel he was once again clinging to loyalty by keeping Wake in after the fifth. It worked out "this time" but it's still his biggest weakness at times.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    craze you're certainly not the only one who says that, but you have to look at the other aspect of it, which is the management of the bullpen workload.  That is an increasingly challenging job in this era of pitch counts and frequent 5-6 inning outings by starters.  Other people here have expressed concern about how many innings Bard and Aceves are pitching.  It's all part of the balancing act. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEO, TITO AND THE OWNERSHIP A 1ST CLASS GROUP !!
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    Excellent way to put it. Not only has this group put a winning team on the field and built a winning organization overall, their attitude and the atmosphere they have built around the team has made the Red Sox a desirable locations for players around the league....and despite the prices has made the team and park a fan friendly experience.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : craze you're certainly not the only one who says that, but you have to look at the other aspect of it, which is the management of the bullpen workload.  That is an increasingly challenging job in this era of pitch counts and frequent 5-6 inning outings by starters.  Other people here have expressed concern about how many innings Bard and Aceves are pitching.  It's all part of the balancing act. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Point well taken Hfx thanks
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    I'm no baseball manager, but I'd have to think that deciding when to take out and leave in pitchers has to be the toughest part of the job.

    Back to that awful night in New York, 2003 ... imagine if Grady had come out, talked to Pedro a little, and left him in. Then Pedro resumes throwing bee-bees and we win. Everyone would have praised Grady for showing faith in his veteran, etc. Instead, well, we know what happened.

    During the season, so much has to go into it because you have another game in less than 24 hours. Girardi apparently felt it necessary to bring in Hughes Sunday night, which I won't criticize him for but it certainly blew up in his face. (And for the record, I think Girardi has done a very good job this year).

    Sure, there are moments that leave us all scratching our heads. The other night, I was screaming at my TV, "Pinch hit Salty for Tek!!" And "Come on, Morales is about to walk in a couple more runs!!" That's natural.

    I've said before that as fans, we can't possibly know what goes into managing a game and a team during a 162-game season. When we play MLB 2K11, we don't have to worry about pitch counts, injuries, or the next game. But they live in the real world.

    Oh, one final thought: There's always a certain segment of fans of a certan team who are convinced their coach/manager is an idiot. I'm sure there were Packer fans in the '60s who thought Lombardi should have won five more championships.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    The other night, I was screaming at my TV, "Pinch hit Salty for Tek!!" And "Come on, Morales is about to walk in a couple more runs!!"

    I was right along with you on those calls Lloyd..But I know Tito has much more info at his fingertips than we do..Do I like all his moves? no way, especially the pitching moves..But again, I know they have access to knowledge that NONE of us have..
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : Excellent way to put it. Not only has this group put a winning team on the field and built a winning organization overall, their attitude and the atmosphere they have built around the team has made the Red Sox a desirable locations for players around the league....and despite the prices has made the team and park a fan friendly experience.
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]  OH SHUCKS, PLEASE DON'T GIVE ME TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR A GOOD POST. YA SEE, SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT I AM A "HOMER" ON THIS BOARD !!   BUT THE SOX ARE DOING IT RIGHT FROM TOP TO BOTTEM !!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]The other night, I was screaming at my TV, "Pinch hit Salty for Tek!!" And "Come on, Morales is about to walk in a couple more runs!!" I was right along with you on those calls Lloyd..But I know Tito has much more info at his fingertips than we do..Do I like all his moves? no way, especially the pitching moves..But again, I know they have access to knowledge that NONE of us have..
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]

    I have to agree with both of you on those moves and I often find myself yelling at the TV to do one thing or another.....except we never remember or care when we were wrong only when Tito was. It is a great part of baseball that we can armchair manage along with the manager, but all of us are doing it with tunnel vision of that particular play, that particular inning or at most that particular game....the manager has to think games ahead and consider all the facts that the public doesnt know about....aches ...pains...hangovers(well at least in the 60's).
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    I have a good friend who's a Phillies fan, and he says lots of Phillies fans who want Charlie Manuel fired today. Heck, I'll bet you there were UCLA basketball fans in the '60s who wanted Wooden gone.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    I don't think Francona places infinite trust in his players.  But he does know their strengths and weaknesses better than we do.  I think his strength is that he expects them to do their jobs once he has put them in the lineup or sent them in to pitch.  And, whatever they do or fail to do, he does not indulge in public criticism.  

    Make no mistake:  he will pull a pitcher or a player if he thinks someone else can do a better job.  Eventually, for example, JD Drew had to sit, Miller had to go to the bullpen, etc.  Mike Cameron didn't get a fair shot in terms of playing every day or regaining the starting CF position, but in retrospect he really didn't earn more playing time. 

    Ortiz is still here, as are Tek and Wake, but it is clear this is a vastly different team from 2004.  The chemistry, however, is just as good as seven years ago with AGon, Youk, Pedroia, and Big Papi providing team leadership. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]Tito stuck with a player this year who national media columnists were claiming was about to be dumped. He now leads all of MLB catchers in extra base hits / PA. Good job Theo and Tito on getting and sticking with Salty. 266 PA /  29 XBH  =   9.2  Salty 377 PA  / 33 XBH  =  11.4  McCann 365  PA / 35 XBH  =   10.4 Avila
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Nice work, Tom!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : I have to agree with both of you on those moves and I often find myself yelling at the TV to do one thing or another.....except we never remember or care when we were wrong only when Tito was. It is a great part of baseball that we can armchair manage along with the manager, but all of us are doing it with tunnel vision of that particular play, that particular inning or at most that particular game....the manager has to think games ahead and consider all the facts that the public doesnt know about....aches ...pains...hangovers(well at least in the 60's).
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, and I think baseball of all games is conducive to armchair managing. On the face of it the strategy points of baseball seem fairly simple.  I would rarely question a football team's strategy because most of it is way over my head.  But like most people here I think I understand quite a bit about baseball strategy. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : I have always said Terry was the perfect manager for our club but leaving pitchers in too long has bit him more times than I can remember.  He has been doing better recently but last night I feel he was once again clinging to loyalty by keeping Wake in after the fifth. It worked out "this time" but it's still his biggest weakness at times.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Interesting.  One of my few complaints as well ... but another has covered the differing landscape and needs well. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from haste. Show haste's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]Tito stuck with a player this year who national media columnists were claiming was about to be dumped. He now leads all of MLB catchers in extra base hits / PA. Good job Theo and Tito on getting and sticking with Salty. 266 PA /  29 XBH  =   9.2  Salty 377 PA  / 33 XBH  =  11.4  McCann 365  PA / 35 XBH  =   10.4 Avila
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    Posts: 7726
    First: 7/13/2009
    Last: 8/9/2011
    I have a good friend who's a Phillies fan, and he says lots of Phillies fans who want Charlie Manuel fired today. Heck, I'll bet you there were UCLA basketball fans in the '60s who wanted Wooden gone.

    I have a couple good friends from Philly and my younger son lives there.  The freinds are just as volitile as you say.  I can remember more than one season that they had sworn off the Phillies by mid April or May ... only to see the Phillies make a late charge.  They never missed a beat ...going from miserable and wanting heads to walking around beating their chests as the re-birth came about.  My son knows how nuts I am about the Sox ... but he is quite sure I'm a minor leaguer in the emotional gamut that Phillies fans run.  We've talked about the possibility of an entire metro area actually being manic-depressive ....


      Meaning Philly ...

      Which is saying something.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    You attribute too much to Tito.

    It wasn't Tito's choice to keep Pedey in the line up.  That decision was made for him.  It was Tito's job to create an atmosphere that allowed Pedey to find his game.

    Tito certainly has input in decisions around players, but once Pedey was named the starting 2nd baseman, it was Tito's job to help him be successful.

    Tito's job is to play players for the job they were hired to play and to get the most out of the players. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]You attribute too much to Tito. It wasn't Tito's choice to keep Pedey in the line up.  That decision was made for him.  It was Tito's job to create an atmosphere that allowed Pedey to find his game. Tito certainly has input in decisions around players, but once Pedey was named the starting 2nd baseman, it was Tito's job to help him be successful. Tito's job is to play players for the job they were hired to play and to get the most out of the players. 
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Do you know this for a fact?  I am not so sure that keeping Pedey in the line-up in the spring of 07 was a mandate from on-high.  Pretty sure that Tito, given his job description, had plenty of input in that decision. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from -theyazzer-. Show -theyazzer-'s posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts :   OH SHUCKS, PLEASE DON'T GIVE ME TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR A GOOD POST. YA SEE, SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT I AM A "HOMER" ON THIS BOARD !!   BUT THE SOX ARE DOING IT RIGHT FROM TOP TO BOTTEM !!
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    actually, bill, you're more of a GOMER.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]I'm no baseball manager, but I'd have to think that deciding when to take out and leave in pitchers has to be the toughest part of the job. Back to that awful night in New York, 2003 ... imagine if Grady had come out, talked to Pedro a little, and left him in. Then Pedro resumes throwing bee-bees and we win. Everyone would have praised Grady for showing faith in his veteran, etc. Instead, well, we know what happened. During the season, so much has to go into it because you have another game in less than 24 hours. Girardi apparently felt it necessary to bring in Hughes Sunday night, which I won't criticize him for but it certainly blew up in his face. (And for the record, I think Girardi has done a very good job this year).

    Sure, there are moments that leave us all scratching our heads. The other night, I was screaming at my TV, "Pinch hit Salty for Tek!!" And "Come on, Morales is about to walk in a couple more runs!!" That's natural. I've said before that as fans, we can't possibly know what goes into managing a game and a team during a 162-game season. When we play MLB 2K11, we don't have to worry about pitch counts, injuries, or the next game. But they live in the real world. Oh, one final thought: There's always a certain segment of fans of a certan team who are convinced their coach/manager is an idiot. I'm sure there were Packer fans in the '60s who thought Lombardi should have won five more championships.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Enjoyed the post and smiled a lot ...

     First bold area ... agree, and have been taught a lot on this site about things that I held as a "better way" - i.e., Earl Weaver's way .... but pitching today is SO different from Earl's ...

       Second bold area...I used to scream at the tv at those "obvious" and "critical" moments.  But my wife has laid down the law.  I can enjoy it all I want, but I have to live by the same rules I instituted with my kids and those scrappy videos games they played (they were scrappy at the time because they didn't play well enough.... but were just fine when they played well, oc course.)  I did a lot of screaming at the tv when they traded Nomah ....

       Third ... I do know (or rather, did ...RIP) a couple old timer who oddly enough thought the Packers won in spite of the Joe.  When the winning (championships) ended ... they were ready fo his head.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts : actually, bill, you're more of a GOMER.
    Posted by -theyazzer-[/QUOTE]  OR SHUCKS , ANOTHER COMPLIMENT !!!Cool
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The cost of Tito's eternal trust in his players..... "The Francona Factor" that counts

    I think playing Pedey in 2007 was a joint decision between Francona and Epstein.  The input from their system, from coaches/managers at Pawtucket and elsewere, was that he was the real deal, so this made it easier to keep putting him in the lineup. 

    I think Terry is great at supporting players.  He gives them a fair shot.  He tells them where they stand.  He doesn't take potshots in the press--in fact, he almost always tried to cover for their mistakes.  He tries to put them in situations where they can succeed.  And he lets them play the game and is not deluded that everything must flow from the manager. 
     

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