The Folly of Bootlickism

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    The Folly of Bootlickism

    The powers that be spouting the conventional wisdom that Valentine was a disaster from the start have decided that an essentially last-place manager who was part of the train-wreck culture that lingers til this day like a bad penny is the BEST CHOICE to manage the team in 2013....The Sox knew that Valentine would be a disaster...Really? I did hear that the guy was not a manager for many years, that he could be colorful, and that he was pretty smart with the x's and o's, but until recently I never heard he was going to be a disaster. I never realized that the guy who coached in Japan and learned to respect their Asian culture and their players was an egomaniac who didnt care about what other people thought. Maybe I am hypersentsitive but when I think a GM takes over 2 months to find a replacement for a totally discredited manager like Francona who made a mockery out of the team concept is maybe not exactly on the ball. Furthermore, I have never heard of any GM reassuring any player on any team that the new manager would NOT be someone they didnt approve of. I would think after quitting like the Sox team did in 2011, they would've been told to shut up and come to camp in shape but I guess I just dont understand the modern team dynamics that others seem to. The final thing that makes me wonder about our GM/leadership is hiring a guy to manage but telling him who his coaches are. My guess this was done to hedge their bets with those players who felt slighted that they could not rubberstamp their next manager (Yes pedey I'm looking at you). Speaking of malcontents, until this season, I has never heard of players calling out managers, demanding meetings with owners, and texting the GM to complain about the coaching....either valentine was a monster or the inmates were use to running the asylum. This morning I read that our old pitching coach is the top candidate for 2013 manager. He is more like Francona and that's what we need. This is the samer brainthrust that still thinks that not hiring the Cubbie manager who lost over a 100 games was the catch the got away becausehe says the right things....All this reaffirms to me that this organization is more about the $$$ and pr than winning. They didn't like losing bit what they really hated was being exposed for the incompetent frauds they are. The secrecy of injury reports, the senseless shuffling of players from pawtucket to Boston, the refusal to let rookies make a mark and instead rely on journeyman retreads because they brass doesnt want to admit they blew it (Bailey, melacon, punto) were all exposed by valentine by simply NOT towing the party line. In short Valentine hurt their brand, and that pains Henry, LL, and Ben more than anything. 2012 was all about the anniversary, not winning. Any chump with a bit of baseball knowledge (like me) could have told the team that our pitchers were lousy, our team heartless, and without depth -

     

    So what is the solution? Hire someone who is a terrible manager (isnt that the argument against Valentine - His record???) but who can spout the party line and will make the whiny babies like Pedroia feel better. The conventional bootlicking wisdom? Resign Cody Ross and Papi...like these guys at this point will turn this franchise around....we are going to committ more money to a RF and DH who are essentially platoon./part time players.  The only thing that makes me hopeful was the big trade - but I dont think this signals a new shift in priorities - not after hearing all this John Farrell nonsense...back to the future I guess.  Wake me this hot stove  when we let papi walk, make a trade for an ace (which we sorely need) get a real shortstop, and tell pedroia to grow up and shut up... 

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    BV was the worst manager in BB, and led us to our worst record in 47 years.  You could've stopped at that.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    This spring when I said Valentine was a bad choice and you kept saying that he wasn't you were the bootlicker.  Not me.

    It was a good post and I respect your opinion but if anyone is a "bootlicker" it was you for insisting that the organization made a good choice with Valentine for so long.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    With that said I agree about Farrell.

     

    I want someone that can be tough on players but that isn't a total azz so that they respect him.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    I don't think anyone realized aside from Snake just how terrible Bobby V would be. I thought he might at least shake up the culture of the team but I did not anticipate at the first sign of trouble hewould let the Red Sox clip his nutsack. He was worse than Francona, who at least knew how to make a clubhous gel. BV managed to gett the players to hate him not by disciplining them or challenging them but by acting like a fool. Then trying to pat them in the butt and win them back. 

    Obviously, BV didn't have full organizational backing and he was just a scapegoat for a flawed management and ownership that has their focus elsewhere (Liverpool, etc - anything but winning). That said BV turned out to be a terrible hire. Snake was right, most of the rest of us were wrong to some extent.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With that said I agree about Farrell.

     

    I want someone that can be tough on players but that isn't a total azz so that they respect him.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem with the Bobby Bootlickers is that they don't understand the difference between a tough coach and a whiney coach.

    A favorite of mine, Billy Martin, wouldn't have said what BV said about Youk, but had Pedroia said what he said, right or wrong, either Martin or Pedroia was coming in the next day in a cast.  But if the press asked Martin what happened to Pedey, Martin would simply have said 'he slipped and fell out of my office window'.

    BV was simply a whiner.  He'd say something derogatory, followed up with a 'I didn't mean anything by it'.  This guy is about the worst manager I've ever seen, and the BB's don't want to own up to their opinion.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

     A friend of mine who's a Mets fan said told me it was an enormous mistake hiring BV. I didn't agree, I figured he knew this was his last chance at managing so he'd have learned from his prior mistakes. After he opened his mouth about Youk whether true or not I think we all realized he was still the same old narcissistic fool and it was not going to end well. The bottom line is it starts at the top. Henry let all this dysfunction occur and has done nothing to curb it.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    A friend of mine who's a Mets fan said told me it was an enormous mistake hiring BV.

    I'm from NY, and everything you saw down here, you could see it repeating.

    Here's a guy leaving the Oriole interview and saying that the O's basically had huge problems that would be very difficult to deal with.  Basically badmouthing the team that just invited him in for an interview.  He could've just said they were a great organization, but he didn't feel it was a good fit.  That's all.  Why call a press conference to say the O's stink?

    And this wasn't 10 years ago, this was two years ago.

    Anyway, I think Buck Showalter might want to disagree with Bobby, but says thank you anyway.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This spring when I said Valentine was a bad choice and you kept saying that he wasn't you were the bootlicker.  Not me.

    It was a good post and I respect your opinion but if anyone is a "bootlicker" it was you for insisting that the organization made a good choice with Valentine for so long.

    [/QUOTE]

    +1

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to pike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This spring when I said Valentine was a bad choice and you kept saying that he wasn't you were the bootlicker.  Not me.

    It was a good post and I respect your opinion but if anyone is a "bootlicker" it was you for insisting that the organization made a good choice with Valentine for so long.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Was this right Georom?

    [/QUOTE]

    Very rarely has a BB team fallen 21 games in one season.  Geo will stick with BV rather than admit a mistake of that magnitude.  And since it is really unlikely BV will get another managing gig after this, Geo doesn't have to re-visit his mistakes.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This spring when I said Valentine was a bad choice and you kept saying that he wasn't you were the bootlicker.  Not me.

    It was a good post and I respect your opinion but if anyone is a "bootlicker" it was you for insisting that the organization made a good choice with Valentine for so long.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think what i was trying to say is that the problem is the red sox management...not Bobby V....but i said over a month ago he needs to go....but i foolishly thought the management was looking for a new direction when they hired bobby V...

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to pike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This spring when I said Valentine was a bad choice and you kept saying that he wasn't you were the bootlicker.  Not me.

    It was a good post and I respect your opinion but if anyone is a "bootlicker" it was you for insisting that the organization made a good choice with Valentine for so long.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Was this right Georom?

    [/QUOTE]


    i liked bobby V because he was the anti-Francona...but he really wasnt...and the GM and brass made sure of that so i was way wrong about what i thought the management wanted, and what bobby v could do for the team...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    i liked bobby V because he was the anti-Francona...but he really wasnt...

    He was the anti-Tito in the biggest way possible.  

    Tito averaged 93 wins.

    BV averaged 69 wins.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With that said I agree about Farrell.

     

    I want someone that can be tough on players but that isn't a total azz so that they respect him.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem with the Bobby Bootlickers is that they don't understand the difference between a tough coach and a whiney coach.

    A favorite of mine, Billy Martin, wouldn't have said what BV said about Youk, but had Pedroia said what he said, right or wrong, either Martin or Pedroia was coming in the next day in a cast.  But if the press asked Martin what happened to Pedey, Martin would simply have said 'he slipped and fell out of my office window'.

    BV was simply a whiner.  He'd say something derogatory, followed up with a 'I didn't mean anything by it'.  This guy is about the worst manager I've ever seen, and the BB's don't want to own up to their opinion.

    [/QUOTE]
     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

    BV has passive-aggressive tendencies which he thinks no one will notice.  He uses this all the time, thinks he is being clever, but everyone sees through it, and that in itself is an issue.  Even before the FO forced him to backtrack on Youk, he was saying 'what did I say wrong' and pretending that he didn't really mean to stab him in the back.

    He told the press that Buchholz refused to move up his start, then said Buchholz was right.  Because he wanted to take a dig at Buchholz, but then deny it was a dig.

    Wanted to punch out a write, but hey, I was only kidding.

    Took a dig at the O's after his interview.

    Said his coaches undermined him, but wouldn't say which ones and how, thus inpugning all of them.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

    BV has passive-aggressive tendencies which he thinks no one will notice.  He uses this all the time, thinks he is being clever, but everyone sees through it, and that in itself is an issue.  Even before the FO forced him to backtrack on Youk, he was saying 'what did I say wrong' and pretending that he didn't really mean to stab him in the back.

    He told the press that Buchholz refused to move up his start, then said Buchholz was right.  Because he wanted to take a dig at Buchholz, but then deny it was a dig.

    Wanted to punch out a write, but hey, I was only kidding.

    Took a dig at the O's after his interview.

    Said his coaches undermined him, but wouldn't say which ones and how, thus inpugning all of them.

    [/QUOTE]


    you really think Bobby V was the problem with the team and not the managment? really?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

    BV has passive-aggressive tendencies which he thinks no one will notice.  He uses this all the time, thinks he is being clever, but everyone sees through it, and that in itself is an issue.  Even before the FO forced him to backtrack on Youk, he was saying 'what did I say wrong' and pretending that he didn't really mean to stab him in the back.

    He told the press that Buchholz refused to move up his start, then said Buchholz was right.  Because he wanted to take a dig at Buchholz, but then deny it was a dig.

    Wanted to punch out a write, but hey, I was only kidding.

    Took a dig at the O's after his interview.

    Said his coaches undermined him, but wouldn't say which ones and how, thus inpugning all of them.

    [/QUOTE]


    you really think Bobby V was the problem with the team and not the managment? really?

    [/QUOTE]

    Why is so hard to believe that Bobby V. was A problem along with the other issues. It's not an either or. Valentine made nothing better and everything worse.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    you really think Bobby V was the problem with the team and not the managment? really?

    It was mostly the same management, except for T&T, that averaged 93+ wins over the previous 9 years.  We had a lot of injuries, but we also had a lot in '11, '10, and '06, and managed to win 90, 89, and 86.

    A writer put together a rather long list of issues that BV contributed to, and even that didn't include everything.  Tito basically lost Lackey and Dice for a full season, Buchholz for over a half season, Youk for 2 months, Scutaro for 2 months, Crawford for a month, and Drew for half-season.  And he won 90 games.

    BV is not just a bad manager, he is arguably one of the worst in history.

    He didn't know that MN's pitcher was a righty.

    He intentionally walked Matsui to load the bases.  There are approximately 460 with the same number of PAs or more as Matsui.  Matsui was the 458th worst hitter in the league.  He was so bad, TB cut him a week later.  And Valetine was so intimidated by his .435 that he gave him an IBB.  How can anyone explain that?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With that said I agree about Farrell.

     

    I want someone that can be tough on players but that isn't a total azz so that they respect him.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem with the Bobby Bootlickers is that they don't understand the difference between a tough coach and a whiney coach.

    A favorite of mine, Billy Martin, wouldn't have said what BV said about Youk, but had Pedroia said what he said, right or wrong, either Martin or Pedroia was coming in the next day in a cast.  But if the press asked Martin what happened to Pedey, Martin would simply have said 'he slipped and fell out of my office window'.

    BV was simply a whiner.  He'd say something derogatory, followed up with a 'I didn't mean anything by it'.  This guy is about the worst manager I've ever seen, and the BB's don't want to own up to their opinion.

    [/QUOTE]
     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

    [/QUOTE]


    You bet the Red Sox want a yes man Georom.  FrancoMa was as big a yes man as there was as witnessed by the fact that he was always meeting with Epstein before every home game and sometimes on the road when the disgraced GM traveled with the team.  Farrell is not only a yes man but a loser as well as witnessed by his two miserable years in Toronto.  Lucchino wants someone he can manipulate and if they keep doing things the same way they've been doing them we will become the new Baltimore Orioles circa 1998-2011.

    Having said that I have to admit that I was completely all wet about Valentine.  He was a disaster.  I had the impression that he was a disciplinarian, something these spoiled and entitled bums needed but instead he was a whining and idiotic moron.  He needed to go. However, we don't improve with a guy like loser Farrell and we will not gete better until we get a real GM who knows baseball and isn't under the thumb of Il Duce Lucchino.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    With that said I agree about Farrell.

     

    I want someone that can be tough on players but that isn't a total azz so that they respect him.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem with the Bobby Bootlickers is that they don't understand the difference between a tough coach and a whiney coach.

    A favorite of mine, Billy Martin, wouldn't have said what BV said about Youk, but had Pedroia said what he said, right or wrong, either Martin or Pedroia was coming in the next day in a cast.  But if the press asked Martin what happened to Pedey, Martin would simply have said 'he slipped and fell out of my office window'.

    BV was simply a whiner.  He'd say something derogatory, followed up with a 'I didn't mean anything by it'.  This guy is about the worst manager I've ever seen, and the BB's don't want to own up to their opinion.

    [/QUOTE]
     joey...i think that backtracking was caused by Ben and sox management...cmon they want a yes man...no other explanation for the fact that they want farrell now...the guy is a lousy manager with toronto....

    [/QUOTE]


    You bet the Red Sox want a yes man Georom.  FrancoMa was as big a yes man as there was as witnessed by the fact that he was always meeting with Epstein before every home game and sometimes on the road when the disgraced GM traveled with the team.  Farrell is not only a yes man but a loser as well as witnessed by his two miserable years in Toronto.  Lucchino wants someone he can manipulate and if they keep doing things the same way they've been doing them we will become the new Baltimore Orioles circa 1998-2011.

    Having said that I have to admit that I was completely all wet about Valentine.  He was a disaster.  I had the impression that he was a disciplinarian, something these spoiled and entitled bums needed but instead he was a whining and idiotic moron.  He needed to go. However, we don't improve with a guy like loser Farrell and we will not gete better until we get a real GM who knows baseball and isn't under the thumb of Il Duce Lucchino.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't be so sure Farrell is a yes man, Fred. Dont know his name, but WEEI had a Toronto beat writer on Friday. He was asked if the Blue Jays would let him go, he said yes because JF and the GM were often at odds. I think the Sox realized they need someone the players know and will respect from day one, familiar with the organization, and is good with the media. No learning curve and can hit the ground running. 

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Folly of Bootlickism

    Don't be so sure Farrell is a yes man, Fred. Dont know his name, but WEEI had a Toronto beat writer on Friday. He was asked if the Blue Jays would let him go, he said yes because JF and the GM were often at odds. I think the Sox realized they need someone the players know and will respect from day one, familiar with the organization, and is good with the media. No learning curve. 

    I don't think Fred's assessment makes sense on any level.

    It would seem counter-intuitive that Tito wouldn't want to meet with his boss.

    And even if this was so, what would that have to do with LL wanting a yes-man?  It's not like LL and our next manager will be interacting.  I don't recall Tito interacting with Larry.

    And past that, I heard that the pitchers were intimidated by Farrell.  I'm not sure about Farrell by any means, but it'll be nice to have someone in the dugout that the players will listen to again.

     

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