The real story of Theo Epstien

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    The real story of Theo Epstien

    The bottom line is Theo wasn't the genuis many labled him as. 

    Theo made many more bad signings than good and never could evaluate good pitching which is why our pen and starters have struggled for years.  Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players, outside of a few good additions in 04, along with making the Nomar trade that everyone labled him a genius for after winning the WS.  That off season he let Cabrera go and lost money on the Renteria signing.  Then he made his only good trade for a starting pitcher who helped us win the WS in 07 which was Schil.  Since then, Theo can only take credit for Clay, Adrian and a few good gap fillers like Scutaro, Victor,  Beltre etc. along with keeping our young talent like Pede, Youk, Lester etc. he had little to do with originally.   Theo also gets credit for Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Dice K, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers over the years which are just a few of his mistakes.  We also lost Masterson because it took Theo years to figure out after 07 that we needed a better offensive catcher that could also handle Wake.  A move, if made earlier that could have kept Masterson in the fold.  To this day we still have Varitek and Salty "a below average catcher" defensively who is being mentored by a guy who can't hit.  Teks "game calling abilitities" have never helped us in any significant way since, other than what some fans try and talk us into.

    Next season should finally be different.  A new GM, manager, coaches and finally get rid of at least some of the dead weight in Tek, Wake, McDon and Drew, even though Lackey and CC may still haunt us for a bit.  Thats the Theo Epstien reality.  He wasn't soley responsible for any young talent on our farm and Henry and Luchinno won't let guys go who were go until their contract expires. 

    Ben Cherington has been given a fresh start and man do we need it.  True we have won two WS with Theo and Tito but the same achievments can and will be made with the correct new staff in place with fewer mistakes, so everyone should stop worrying.  Why do you really feel Henry didn't want Tito "no control over discipline" or Theo back this season after the offer?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]The bottom line is Theo wasn't the genuis many labled him as.  Theo made many more bad signings than good and never could evaluate good pitching which is why our pen and starters have struggled for years.  Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players in 04 by simply making the Nomar trade that everyone labled him a genius for after winning the WS  That off season he let Cabrera go and lost money on the Renteria signing.  In 07 he made his only good trade for a starting pitcher who helped us win the WS in Schil.  Since then, Theo can only take credit for Clay, Adrian and some very poor signings.  Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Lackey, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers over the years are just a some mistakes.  We also lost Masterson because it took Theo years to figure out after 07 that we needed a better offensive catcher that could also handle Wake.  A move, if made earlier could have kept Masterson in the fold.  To this day we still have Varitek and Salty "a below average catcher" defensively who is being mentored by a guy who can't hit.  Teks "game calling abilitities" has never helped us in any significant way. Next season should finally be different.  A new GM, manager, coaches and finally get rid of at least some of the bad players in Tek, Wake and Drew, even though Lackey and CC may still haunt us for a bit.  Thats the Theo Epstien reality.   He wasn't soley responsible for any young talent on our farm and Henry and Luchinno won't let guys go who were go until their contract expires.  Ben Cherington has been given a fresh start and man do we need it.  True we have won two WS with Theo and Tito but the same achievments can and will be made with the correct new staff in place so everyone should stop worrying.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    Down the road when history writes Blunder's story and the pink hats and the pollyannas aren't around to shout down anyone who criticizes him, history will tell us that Blunder was perhaps one of the most incompetent GMs in the history of the league. And history always gets it right. Always.

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    But what will happen to the forum without Drew, Theo, Tito around. Even worse what if Lackey is out with Tommy John surgery and Crawford rebounds? What will the bashers do to occupy themselves?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]But what will happen to the forum without Drew, Theo, Tito around. Even worse what if Lackey is out with Tommy John surgery and Crawford rebounds? What will the bashers do to occupy themselves?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]


    Was it a mistake that the Red Sox won two World Series in this decade?

    Obviously someone felt it important to foist their opinion (The real story of Theo Epstein) and forgot to mention the two big wins as proof of their lack of vision and obsession with dwelling on the negative. I wonder if the originator of this post kicked his dog, cursed his parents and swore at other motorists in front of him yet today.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    This is the typical thing that has always gone on with Epstein. He is either a genius or an idiot it seems and things are never that simple.

    For example:
    Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players in 04 by simply making the Nomar trade that everyone labeled him a genius for after winning the WS 

    Wrong.

    Millar, Ortiz, Mueller, Schilling, Walker, Bellhorn, Timlin. Embree, Foulke were all Epstein's early moves. In two seasons the team went from being very incomplete with a few star players to the deepest offense in the majors. He built a thin bit efficient BP in two seasons.

    Theo wasn't the only reason why the RS won in 2004 but he was instrumental. He also did a fine job of retooling on the fly and was able to retool half his IF and 2/3 of his OF, replace 3 starters and completely over haul the bullpen.

    The guy had a good run here. he made mistakes, every GM does.

    And one look at the back of Orlando Cabrera's baseball card will tell you that in spite of very good play on the field every team he has been with wants to move the guy very quickly and does.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Theo took over a 90+ win 2nd place team with a huge contract in LF and left a 90+ win 3rd place team with a huge contract in LF. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]This is the typical thing that has always gone on with Epstein. He is either a genius or an idiot it seems and things are never that simple. For example: Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players in 04 by simply making the Nomar trade that everyone labeled him a genius for after winning the WS  Wrong. Millar, Ortiz, Mueller, Schilling, Walker, Bellhorn, Timlin. Embree, Foulke were all Epstein's early moves. In two seasons the team went from being very incomplete with a few star players to the deepest offense in the majors. He built a thin bit efficient BP in two seasons. Theo wasn't the only reason why the RS won in 2004 but he was instrumental. He also did a fine job of retooling on the fly and was able to retool half his IF and 2/3 of his OF, replace 3 starters and completely over haul the bullpen. The guy had a good run here. he made mistakes, every GM does. And one look at the back of Orlando Cabrera's baseball card will tell you that in spite of very good play on the field every team he has been with wants to move the guy very quickly and does.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    katz, Theo's good moves look very tiny when placing them inside of the bad ones.  I have had enough of this nonsense being thrown around about how important Theo and our Vets have been for the team in recent years.  A little more honesty and less BS on this board is a dose of reality many fans need.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : katz, Theo's good moves look very tiny when placing them inside of the bad ones.  I have had enough of this nonsense being thrown around about how important Theo and our Vets have been for the team in recent years. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Might I suggest you kick your dog again? It will do more for you than posting here. It might actually vent that angst you have pented up. Oh, and the pink hat you own? Did you buy that AFTER the 2004 World Series or AFTER you bacame one of the Red Sox Nation Bandwagoners?
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Might I suggest you kick your dog again? It will do more for you than posting here. It might actually vent that angst you have pented up. Oh, and the pink hat you own? Did you buy that AFTER the 2004 World Series or AFTER you bacame one of the Red Sox Nation Bandwagoners?
    Posted by WesternOregon[/QUOTE]

    Been a Sox fan for probably longer than you have been around pal, but don't cover up reality like some of our fans.  Sugar coating the obvious is the worst part of being in denial.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Matthew Cory:

    The team Theo took over wasn't in total dysfunction but there were glaring mistakes in personnel, in management, and in player development. To his eternal credit, Theo fixed all of that. While he took the Red Sox major league team to the heights of two time World Champions, he simultaneously turned the Sox farm system from a joke into one of the consistently stronger systems in baseball. On his watch he drafted and produced Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, Jonathan Papelbon, and Jed Lowrie. He developed Kevin Youkilis and Jon Lester. He drafted and developed the three prospects that brought back Adrian Gonzalez and the three that netted Victor Martinez.

    Many of the deals that ended up on the list of Theo's mistakes were as well thought out and meticulously planned as they could be. The Crawford deal especially stands as a testament to the unpredictability of baseball and people. Show me one single person, one scout, one front office executive, one baseball analyst, one blogger, who thought all of Crawford's skills were going to magically vanish upon signing with Boston and I'll hold Theo accountable for the signing. If that signing ultimately fails it wasn't due to lack of preparation, intellect, or hard work.

    Also, Theo often doesn't get credit for the deals he didn't make. Pedro Martinez and Jason Bay did and will spend the remainder of their careers clogging someone else's payroll.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Matthew Cory: The team Theo took over wasn't in total dysfunction but there were glaring mistakes in personnel, in management, and in player development. To his eternal credit, Theo fixed all of that. While he took the Red Sox major league team to the heights of two time World Champions, he simultaneously turned the Sox farm system from a joke into one of the consistently stronger systems in baseball. On his watch he drafted and produced Jacoby Ellsbury , Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard , Jonathan Papelbon , and Jed Lowrie. He developed Kevin Youkilis and Jon Lester. He drafted and developed the three prospects that brought back Adrian Gonzalez and the three that netted Victor Martinez . Many of the deals that ended up on the list of Theo's mistakes were as well thought out and meticulously planned as they could be. The Crawford deal especially stands as a testament to the unpredictability of baseball and people. Show me one single person, one scout, one front office executive, one baseball analyst, one blogger, who thought all of Crawford's skills were going to magically vanish upon signing with Boston and I'll hold Theo accountable for the signing. If that signing ultimately fails it wasn't due to lack of preparation, intellect, or hard work. Also, Theo often doesn't get credit for the deals he didn't make. Pedro Martinez and Jason Bay did and will spend the remainder of their careers clogging someone else's payroll.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Nice try but who did Theo replace guys like Bay "Crawford" Pedro "???" and Damon "Crisp" with?  Jacoby in the wings I could understand.  Theo made a few good moves but nobody on this board, or in Red Sox nation can prove he didn't make many more bad ones.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Matthew Cory: The team Theo took over wasn't in total dysfunction but there were glaring mistakes in personnel, in management, and in player development.  Also, Theo often doesn't get credit for the deals he didn't make. Pedro Martinez and Jason Bay did and will spend the remainder of their careers clogging someone else's payroll.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    The team Theo took over may not have been in "total dysfunction" but the one he is quitting on is pretty close. 

    This is a classice myopic view of what Epstein did.  Highlight the good, the farm system, and chalk up the bad, Crawford, to the unpredictibility of being a GM.  This guy praises him for not "clogging" up the Red Sox payroll with Pedro or Bay, ok dude, but what about Lackey, Drew, etc.... The classic want to have it both ways Theo apologist.  Good thing Beltre isn't "clogging" the payroll.

    Since 2004 Theo's bad moves have by far outnumbered the good, it is not close, it is a run away and that is why I'm glad he is gone.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : The team Theo took over may not have been in "total dysfunction" but the one he is quitting on is pretty close.  This is a classice myopic view of what Epstein did.  Highlight the good, the farm system, and chalk up the bad, Crawford, to the unpredictibility of being a GM.  This guy praises him for not "clogging" up the Red Sox payroll with Pedro or Bay, ok dude, but what about Lackey, Drew, etc.... The classic want to have it both ways Theo apologist.  Good thing Beltre isn't "clogging" the payroll. Since 2004 Theo's bad moves have by far outnumbered the good, it is not close, it is a run away and that is why I'm glad he is gone.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Thank you Thesemenarecowards, it gets so old hearing people make excuses on this board.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : katz, Theo's good moves look very tiny when placing them inside of the bad ones.  I have had enough of this nonsense being thrown around about how important Theo and our Vets have been for the team in recent years.  A little more honesty and less BS on this board is a dose of reality many fans need.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]Two WS titles look tiny to you?

    He rebuilt the RS on the fly from 2004 to 2007. The starting line-up had new players at 1B,2B, SS, 3B, CF, RF, 3 new starting pitchers and the entire BP was new. The DH was his signing (and one of the biggest steal sever) and so that left Manny and Tek.

    The Cubs aren't bringing Epstein on board because he is bad at what he does.  


     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Millar, Ortiz, Mueller, Schilling, Walker, Bellhorn, Timlin. Embree, Foulke were all Epstein's early moves. In two seasons the team went from being very incomplete with a few star players to the deepest offense in the majors. He built a thin bit efficient BP in two seasons.

    What did all these players have in common?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    Doesn't every GM make his share of mistakes. Cashman has made twice as many. The marketplace took away Damon, Pedro, and Bay. Pedro was damaged goods. Bay failed the four year physical. Theo has admitted many mistakes. He said that a GM aims to be 55% correct. You sound like you expect a GM to be 100% correct. No GM is perfect. With your mentality set you will be jumping all over the new GM once he makes an error. Talk about entitlement and being a spoiled, fair-weather fan. Get out the crying towel. Why not smile once in awhile.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Two WS titles look tiny to you? He rebuilt the RS on the fly from 2004 to 2007. The starting line-up had new players at 1B,2B, SS, 3B, CF, RF, 3 new starting pitchers and the entire BP was new. The DH was his signing (and one of the biggest steal sever) and so that left Manny and Tek. The Cubs aren't bringing Epstein on board because he is bad at what he does.  
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Rebuilt katz?  The Cubs have no idea what they are doing and never have.  Theo has had more money and fexability to sign certain players than any GM in RS history since Henry took over.  He should have had some success.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Doesn't every GM make his share of mistakes. Cashman has made twice as many. The marketplace took away Damon, Pedro, and Bay. Pedro was damaged goods. Bay failed the four year physical. Theo has admitted many mistakes. He said that a GM aims to be 55% correct. You sound like you expect a GM to be 100% correct. No GM is perfect. With your mentality set you will be jumping all over the new GM once he makes an error. Talk about entitlement and being a spoiled, fair-weather fan. Get out the crying towel. Why not smile once in awhile.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Yes, that I agree with, my point is Theo is not a genius by any means.  Put Beane in Boston and Theo on the A's, then you may see it differently.

    Evaluating talent isn't just buying top name players because you can.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : katz, Theo's good moves look very tiny when placing them inside of the bad ones.  I have had enough of this nonsense being thrown around about how important Theo and our Vets have been for the team in recent years.  A little more honesty and less BS on this board is a dose of reality many fans need.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    OK Budzo, if you think Theo is such a bad GM, then I have a proposition for you.  If Theo is the Cubs' GM, then I predict they will make a playoff appearance within three years.  If he is as incompetent as you suggest, then this is not likely to happen in spite of their budget. 

    If this doesn't happen, then you must add a tagline to the bottom of every post for the remainder of your time here.  The line will read, "I was wrong about Theo and you should completely ignore me regarding baseball matters."   I will do the same should this prediction not come true.

    Now put up or shut up!
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ? He rebuilt the RS on the fly from 2004 to 2007.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Not really.  The heart of the order, Manny, Papi, Lowell, Youk, even Tek were mostly in place and of that group, Theo was only responsible for Papi.  Theo's only contribution to that line-up was through the farm system with Pedey and Ells, unless of course you want to include Drew and Lugo as "contributions".

    On the pitching staff, Schill and Wake had been there, Beckett was not Theo, Theo got Dice-K, who was decent in 2007, Oki was a great find that year, easily Theo's best and Papelbon is Theo's draft.  He did fill out the Pen with Gagne.

    Theo did some good things to fill out that roster but when you look at the primary pieces on that team, they were either moves not made by Theo or moves Theo made prior to 2004.

     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : OK Budzo, if you think Theo is such a bad GM, then I have a proposition for you.  If Theo is the Cubs' GM, then I predict they will make a playoff appearance within three years.  If he is as incompetent as you suggest, then this is not likely to happen in spite of their budget.  If this doesn't happen, then you must add a tagline to the bottom of every post for the remainder of your time here.  The line will read, "I was wrong about Theo and you should completely ignore me regarding baseball matters."   I will do the same should this prediction not come true. Now put up or shut up!
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]

    This is an absolutely ridiculous proposition.  The Cubs are a top 5 team in terms of resources.  They had the best record in baseball in 2008, not exactly ancient history.  If Theo can't get them in the play-offs in 3 years that is a failure. 


     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : This is an absolutely ridiculous proposition.  The Cubs are a top 5 team in terms of resources.  They had the best record in baseball in 2008, not exactly ancient history.  If Theo can't get them in the play-offs in 3 years that is a failure. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I agree that if he can't get them in the playoffs in 3 years it's a failure.  That's exactly the point of this proposition.  Some are suggesting that Theo is a failure, and I'm suggesting he's not. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien : Yes, that I agree with, my point is Theo is not a genious by any means.  Put Beane in Boston and Theo on the A's, then you may see it differently. Evaluating talent isn't just buying top name players because you can.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    How much genius has Beane shown lately though, since he lost that nucleus of great pitchers he once had?  His most notable move in recent years was handing Carlos Gonzalez to the Rockies in the Matt Holliday rental. 
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]The bottom line is Theo wasn't the genuis many labled him as.  Theo made many more bad signings than good and never could evaluate good pitching which is why our pen and starters have struggled for years.  Theo had nothing to do with the 03 team that came close and got credit for the same players, outside of a few good additions in 04, along with making the Nomar trade that everyone labled him a genius for after winning the WS.  That off season he let Cabrera go and lost money on the Renteria signing.  Then he made his only good trade for a starting pitcher who helped us win the WS in 07 which was Schil.  Since then, Theo can only take credit for Clay, Adrian and a few good gap fillers like Scutaro, Victor,  Beltre etc. along with keeping our young talent like Pede, Youk, Lester etc. he had little to do with originally.   Theo also gets credit for Lugo, Drew, Penny, Smoltz, Wells, Piniero, Clement, Cameron, Crisp, Renteria, Crawford, Lackey and a whole slew of horrible relief pitchers over the years which are just a few of his mistakes.  We also lost Masterson because it took Theo years to figure out after 07 that we needed a better offensive catcher that could also handle Wake.  A move, if made earlier that could have kept Masterson in the fold.  To this day we still have Varitek and Salty "a below average catcher" defensively who is being mentored by a guy who can't hit.  Teks "game calling abilitities" have never helped us in any significant way since, other than what some fans try and talk us into. Next season should finally be different.  A new GM, manager, coaches and finally get rid of at least some of the dead weight in Tek, Wake, McDon and Drew, even though Lackey and CC may still haunt us for a bit.  Thats the Theo Epstien reality.   He wasn't soley responsible for any young talent on our farm and Henry and Luchinno won't let guys go who were go until their contract expires.  Ben Cherington has been given a fresh start and man do we need it.  True we have won two WS with Theo and Tito but the same achievments can and will be made with the correct new staff in place with fewer mistakes, so everyone should stop worrying.  Why do you really feel Henry didn't want Tito "no control over discipline" or Theo back this season after the offer?
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    If you're going to question Theo's "genuis," you should learn how to spell "Epstein" and "labeled."  Just sayin'.
     
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    Re: The real story of Theo Epstien

    In Response to Re: The real story of Theo Epstien:
    [QUOTE]Doesn't every GM make his share of mistakes. Cashman has made twice as many. The marketplace took away Damon, Pedro, and Bay. Pedro was damaged goods. Bay failed the four year physical. Theo has admitted many mistakes. He said that a GM aims to be 55% correct. You sound like you expect a GM to be 100% correct. No GM is perfect. With your mentality set you will be jumping all over the new GM once he makes an error. Talk about entitlement and being a spoiled, fair-weather fan. Get out the crying towel. Why not smile once in awhile.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Amen.

    Some of these posts make me laugh. Last winter there were all these posters screaming at Theo to do something. He gets Gonzo and Crawford and the forum is full of ecstatic posts. FF to April and the early losing streak and all you get are posts yelling about theTheo's players/acquisitions. FF to July and the world is right again. There are posts calling the club the best in the MLB. (yea, right) And after September, we get to read the "real" story of Epstein. With all the "what have you done for me lately" attitude among these "fans" and the media,  why would any player come here except for the money?
     

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