The Red Sox Have No Plan

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Medic87. Show Medic87's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    other teams were offering 4yrs at about 44mill ( 11 per yr) on both Napoli and Victorino, the sox just overpaid a little more per year @ 13 mill to get the shorter term 3 yr contract seems smart to me they wont need either of these to at the end of their contracts.  which i like.  not a big deal at all. i dont know where your getting 7 million/yr offers from, pulling them out of your butt just to reinforce your argument i guess.

    BTW Keith Law hating the Victorino signing, but loved the Wright/mets deal.  hmph go figure.  thats about what his opinion is worth. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to ADG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The other teams involved were Seattle and Cleveland. Do you think they were offering anywhere near that much? Wake up.

    [/QUOTE]

    Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact.

    It may be an overpay but not nearly as much or as clearly as the some suggest.   SV is a well rounded player who provides value in defense, speed and (before last year) at the plate.  If last year wasn't an aberration, he can still provide value in two other areas.  If it was just a down year, he's worth the money.  Either way he is less of a risk than a one dimensional player and the risk to the team is minimal.  Having SV means we can try to deal Ells without blowing up the team but can also stand pat if the right deal doesn't come along right away.  

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    I'd rather overpay a guy for 3 years at 12/13 million than 5+ years at 25 million.  No matter how bad that contract is.....its not debilitating.  I actually like his strategy, give the team a "chance" to win now....you still have some payroll flexibility, the farm is preserved, and there are no long term  contracts crippling the team.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from eggplants. Show eggplants's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

                                           I thought they had a plan. Joebr. thinks plan A had 3 players, Swish,Napoli,Sanchez.We got Napoli so far whiffed on Sanchez and Swish. They still might be in play. Nutin thinks plan B was LaRoche. Maybe. I read a Peter Abraham column that mentioned BC was looking to move Ells. for a SP. I'm thinking how many times does Ben have to get hit in the head with an iron skillet before he learns you don't trade everyday players for pitchers. Lowrie for Melancon, big advantage Houston, Bailey for Reddick+, big advantage A's. Reddick played 150+ games for the A's. No pitcher starter or reliever can help in 150 games. You trade everyday players for everyday players and pitchers for pitchers. Prospects are the bridge. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    It's about buying victories, buying runs, not about the players...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    The plan is obvious:  Corner the market on mediocre players and then when any team in MLB desperately needs a mediocre player - they HAVE to deal on Cherrington's terms.

    Brilliant!!

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A. Still plenty of room for young players (which young players are you referring to anyway?  Kalish?  He will get reps.  Gomez?  Not ready for prime-time.  Bradley?  NRFPT)

    B. Do you just assume that the Victorino & Napoli signings were made with no connection to making a deal for pitching?  Victorino as CF sub if Ellsbury can be packaged?  Napoli as backup catcher so Lavarnway or Salty can be moved?  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    They already got Ross for that.  either Lava or Salty are gone.

    Again they paid too much for Victorino,  but he is a good player. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Thats impossible.  A good player for 13M is a bargain in today's market.  Wake up and smell the inflation.  

    Seriously , who coined that?  Was it you, Carnie?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it was mef429, at least he was the first I saw use it.

    [/QUOTE]


    not i. i don't remember who said that in fact.

    but seriously, BJ UPTON GOT 15 MIL PER FOR 5 YEARS!!! that set the market for OF'ers this offseason.. SV for 12-13 per is pretty good considering i would take SV over BJ upton twice today and again tomorrow

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You're dreaming. A $170M payroll and he's spending money on back-up players to be starters.
    Why would Ben rely on farm players who may or may not make it, when he has the money now to field a championship team?

    and if you think Ben is going to get top of the rotation starter, you are sadly mistaken. He already thinks 1 thru 4 is set so he might get a 5th starter.

    And as far as 1B, Lance Berkman on a 1-2 year deal would have made a heck of a lot more sense than Napoli and for 1/3 the price.

    [/QUOTE]

    First off, just because the luxury tax limit is $170 million and the Sox can afford to spend to it, that does not mean they should if the right players are not in the marketplace to invest that money in. Inaccurate comment #1.

    Since when have Napoli and Victorino been backup players?? Napoli was with the Angels a few years back when he platooned with Mathis, but that was a few years ago and he was the #1 catcher even with Mathis. You might be right about Gomes, but let's look at him as the new Kevin Millar....On the whole, inaccurate comment #2.

    Who said that Cherington was going after a #1 starter?? Depending on what the market is for Ellsbury will likely dictate what level of SP they acquire, if they turn to free agency then there is no more than a #3 out there with Sanchez and his price is likely too steep. Lets make that inaccurate comment #3.

    Signing 39 year old Lance Berkman instead of Napoli would have produced more negative feedback then Cherington is getting on here now. Funny how on one hand you want them to spend to the limit, but then on the other hand go on the cheap to sign someone who is no more than a true backup player at this stage of his career. He might get lucky and go back to Houston to be they're DH...or maybe the Sox will sign him to a minor league deal and let him try for a roster spot. That takes us to inaccurate comment #4.

    At least you are consistent with your inaccuracies. It seems to be relative it just about all your posts.

    [/QUOTE]

    Berkman will be 37 in February and he will be a HOFer. He is a SH who dos hit better from the left side. He is 1 year removed from a phenomenal year.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You're dreaming. A $170M payroll and he's spending money on back-up players to be starters.
    Why would Ben rely on farm players who may or may not make it, when he has the money now to field a championship team?

    and if you think Ben is going to get top of the rotation starter, you are sadly mistaken. He already thinks 1 thru 4 is set so he might get a 5th starter.

    And as far as 1B, Lance Berkman on a 1-2 year deal would have made a heck of a lot more sense than Napoli and for 1/3 the price.

    [/QUOTE]

    First off, just because the luxury tax limit is $170 million and the Sox can afford to spend to it, that does not mean they should if the right players are not in the marketplace to invest that money in. Inaccurate comment #1.

    Since when have Napoli and Victorino been backup players?? Napoli was with the Angels a few years back when he platooned with Mathis, but that was a few years ago and he was the #1 catcher even with Mathis. You might be right about Gomes, but let's look at him as the new Kevin Millar....On the whole, inaccurate comment #2.

    Who said that Cherington was going after a #1 starter?? Depending on what the market is for Ellsbury will likely dictate what level of SP they acquire, if they turn to free agency then there is no more than a #3 out there with Sanchez and his price is likely too steep. Lets make that inaccurate comment #3.

    Signing 39 year old Lance Berkman instead of Napoli would have produced more negative feedback then Cherington is getting on here now. Funny how on one hand you want them to spend to the limit, but then on the other hand go on the cheap to sign someone who is no more than a true backup player at this stage of his career. He might get lucky and go back to Houston to be they're DH...or maybe the Sox will sign him to a minor league deal and let him try for a roster spot. That takes us to inaccurate comment #4.

    At least you are consistent with your inaccuracies. It seems to be relative it just about all your posts.

    [/QUOTE]

    Berkman will be 37 in February and he will be a HOFer. He is a SH who dos hit better from the left side. He is 1 year removed from a phenomenal year.

    [/QUOTE]

    berkman wouldn't be a terrible option but the sox are looking for a guy who can play both corner IF positions..

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "'Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact. ""                                   Hardly a fact      . No one from the Cleveland FO said they made such offer. Francona never said it either.  Just an excuse manufactued to make it look like the Red Sox.didn't overpay. Consenses opinion  in baseball is thay overpaid greatly.              Fact

    [/QUOTE]


    Consensus baseball opinion? Fact? Seriously????

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "'Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact. ""                                   Hardly a fact      . No one from the Cleveland FO said they made such offer. Francona never said it either.  Just an excuse manufactued to make it look like the Red Sox.didn't overpay. Consenses opinion  in baseball is thay overpaid greatly.              Fact

    [/QUOTE]


    Consensus baseball opinion? Fact? Seriously????

    [/QUOTE]


    dont question him carnie.. he polled the baseball pundits before they left the winter meetings

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "'Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact. ""                                   Hardly a fact      . No one from the Cleveland FO said they made such offer. Francona never said it either.  Just an excuse manufactued to make it look like the Red Sox.didn't overpay. Consenses opinion  in baseball is thay overpaid greatly.              Fact

    [/QUOTE]


    Consensus baseball opinion? Fact? Seriously????

    [/QUOTE]


    dont question him carnie.. he polled the baseball pundits before they left the winter meetings

    [/QUOTE]

    It's just that consensus baseball opinion is kind of like consensus forum opinion...

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Making stupid jokes hardly make you right just the opposite.

    [/QUOTE]


    As opposed to making nonsensical statements?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    look guys, its impossible to know what offers SV had.. we cant change it and it is hardly a big deal. lets go to the extreme and say we overpaid SV 9-10 mil thats 3 mil per year and we have a bunch of cash to play with still. its not crippling nor will it prevent us from signing anyone in the future.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    Usually when someone says the team has no plan, what they really mean is "The team won't follow MY plan!!"

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Usually when someone says the team has no plan, what they really mean is "The team won't follow MY plan!!"

    [/QUOTE]


    and then the waterworks commence..

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "'Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact. ""                                   Hardly a fact      . No one from the Cleveland FO said they made such offer. Francona never said it either.  Just an excuse manufactued to make it look like the Red Sox.didn't overpay. Consenses opinion  in baseball is thay overpaid greatly.              Fact

    [/QUOTE]


    But the several of the opinions were also stupid.

     

    Normally I like Keith Law, but his harping on the BA vs RHP with the platoon label really was stupid.

     

    Victorino has hit RHP better than BJ Upton during that same timeframe.   But apparently since Upton cannot hit LHP either, he is more balanced?

     

    So Upton's inabilty to hit anyone makes him worth more than Victorino, since he struggles to make outs vs LHP?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to darrylfries' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "'Cleveland wanted SV at 4yr / $44m and lost out to the Sox.  Fact. ""                                   Hardly a fact      . No one from the Cleveland FO said they made such offer. Francona never said it either.  Just an excuse manufactued to make it look like the Red Sox.didn't overpay. Consenses opinion  in baseball is thay overpaid greatly.              Fact

    [/QUOTE]


    But the several of the opinions were also stupid.

     

    Normally I like Keith Law, but his harping on the BA vs RHP with the platoon label really was stupid.

     

    Victorino has hit RHP better than BJ Upton during that same timeframe.   But apparently since Upton cannot hit LHP either, he is more balanced?

     

    So Upton's inabilty to hit anyone makes him worth more than Victorino, since he struggles to make outs vs LHP?

    [/QUOTE]


    but but but. its concensus baseball opinion!!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    ADG they have a plan it's just not your plan. 

    I'm not sure whether that's a good or bad thing, but I'm leaning towards good...

    "Nothing else can explain the Victorino signing other than the fact that they have no plan"

    Well, a couple things - they did overpay for Victorino but not by as much as you think - they don't want to do four year offers (that part I can understand) so they have to go a bit higher for a three year signing. 

    It does appear they have an outfield glut but *if* their plan is to possibly trade Ells, and they have in fact already (reportedly) asked the Philllies about Ells for Cliff Lee, then SV gets moved to center field, a position he can certainly play and where he will not seem as overpaid. And if they do that it will certainly appear they have a plan.

    Hey, i have some misgivings about some aspects of their approach, for example not sure the team they put on the field will inspire much excitement (though if they play as a team and win it will)....but to claim they have no plan at all is silly.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    these guys were once very good players...they are declining....can they get it back? papi did....but at some point if you keep on signing these question marks for 3 years (which is still a good amount of time) you will reach the point where you easily couldve had an elite player in his prime....we will see...

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    these guys were once very good players...they are declining....can they get it back? papi did....but at some point if you keep on signing these question marks for 3 years (which is still a good amount of time) you will reach the point where you easily couldve had an elite player in his prime....we will see...

    [/QUOTE]


    Both Napoli and Victorino had probably their best seasons in 2011...if one year is all you need for evidence of a "decline," then I guess they are in decline. They may bounce back, or they may not...I guess only time will tell.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    In response to ADG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nothing else can explain the Victorino signing other than the fact that they have no plan. Paying this guy and giving him a 38% raise after the season he had is absurd.

    Patchwork signings and no room for young players.

    Team gets older.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sometimes patchwork is exactly what is called for...There's a term for in the buisness world it's called manpower planning with an eye on current needs and future based on turnover and growth of a company...

    BJ Upton 5-75 million (Braves), Pagan 4-40 (resigned by Giants) & Victorino 3-39 (Red Sox) are three examples of centerfielders that recently signed with Bourn and Hamilton still left on the board. Both of whom are likely to get something north of Upton's AAV with comaparable length.

    Carl Crawford's making 20m per (like it or not his contract is used to set the bar for outfielders). Just ask his teamate who last year signed an extension where the AAV exceeds 20M. Victorino @ 13M per is getting about 65% of what Crawford makes. The difference between the two's contracts is that the Dodgers have 100M tied up with Crawford, paying him 60M in the next three years with two years remaining...

    Here's what the uninformed baseball people aren't taking into consideration when evauating the merits of the Victorino signing...

    1) Victorino profiles as a leadoff hitter and centerfielder (who has the arm and the range to play RF in Fenway)...

    2) Jacoby Ellsbury if not traded will be playing his least season as a member of the Boston Red Sox...Meaning that with Victorino if they trade Ells, then he slides over to play CF and will likely be the leadoff hitter in 2013 if they keep Ells and let him play out his contract then in 2014 they have a suitable replacement for him both in center and almost as important at the top of the order.

    3) Our best centerfield prospect Jackie Brandley JR. is projected to be ready for his cup of coffee late 2014, if he continues to progress as projected, he'll have a shot at making the roster at the begining of 2015.

    Thus the signing of Victorino allows Cherington to deal from a position of strength with Ellsbury. Set in place a manpower transistion plan for centerfield and at the top of the order which buys the organization time to fully evaluate young Bradley.

    Call me crazy but anyone that wants to poke holes in the legnth of or the moneys paid to hasn't been paying attention...Luckily Cherington is...the only real risk is that of injuries...with 2015 the only year of this deal where Victorino could become expendable...that is dependent the unknown of if and when Bradley is ready for prime time.

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: The Red Sox Have No Plan

    All we need is for Shane Victorino to be mentally tougher than Carl Crawford -to not let the extreme whiners of Red Sox Nation get him down before he even has the chance to slip on the uniform.  

    If he can ignore all the static and just play to his potential, this signing will be just fine.  

     

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