The return of the black hole at shortstop

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    well, look at Theo's history at SS:
    Trades Nomar to get Cabrera to improve defense at SS, not expecting the offense that Orlando gave them as well. Works perfectly, team wins WS.

    Signs Renteria to get full package, instead gets a terrible fielder, and an underachieving hitter.

    Signs Lugo, and gets a terrible fielder (so-so at best) and a poor hitter despite his strong RBI. Still, team wins WS title and Julio hit well in WS.

    Gets Alex Gonzalez who probably is the best defensive SS in Sox history, but Alex didn't do much offensively. So he lets him go. Why? I have no idea.

    Signs Scutaro to get a so-so fielder who is supposed to be a good enough hitter. Guess he did the job ok last year, but he is older and injuries have caught up to him.

    Lowrie comes out of nowhere, but is an injury-plagued player, brittle. Not much defensively, but seems to swing the stick well.

    Bottom Line: Sox should go back to defensive mentality for SS. Then put a real hitter in RF. SS is the most important defensive position, but Theo has gone with offense first mentality. Doesn't make sense, but Theo can say he has 2 WS titles and tell everyone to stuff it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop



    solid post DC

    definitely worth reading




    care to share on why you chose danny cater for a handle
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    Alex Gonzales should still be here, his numbers in Atlanta are not bad.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]Alex Gonzales should still be here, his numbers in Atlanta are not bad.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I definitely agree with you.  I really wish that the Red Sox had resigned him.  He was a great addition to the Red Sox and was not the best offensive player, but still adequate. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]Alex Gonzales should still be here, his numbers in Atlanta are not bad.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Not bad?

    He's batting .231 and has a .607 OPS.

    Of course he's better defensively, but SS is hardly a major problem. Scutaro and Lowrie are adequate defensively and both are better at the plate.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    Why do so many think you have to choose between a great bat or a great glove at shortstop?  Just look at 18 years of Jeter in NY to figure out you can have both!  And we all know how Epstein can have an elite hitter, an elite baserunner, and a elite fielder at shortstop for the next ten years.  It will take a whole lot of prospects to get Reyes and a ton of money to sign him to a long term deal.  But it would end the revolving door at shortstop one and for all. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    The bottom line is:

    We are not currently in the "golden age of the shortstop."

    Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel , etc. have all gone away. Even some of the lesser lights of that era, Gary Templeton, John Valentine, etc. would be top shortstops in this era.

    Back in the early 70's not many teams had a skilled offensive shortstop, they leaned toward a SS tha could field his position and offense was a bonus. I think we are currently heading down that same path. Which means if Iglesias is the defensive wiz we think he is going to be, we should be fine.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop :   Scutaro and Lowrie are adequate defensively and both are better at the plate.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Are we watching the same players in the field?  Scutaro needs to move to 2B as he has no arm whatsoever and has become a liability in the field.  While he can still get to balls, he can no longer make throws once he gets there.  Remember the last game before the break?  3 infield singles, all to Scutaro.  One of them coming because he knows he can't make a routine throw to first, which is why he tossed it to 2B and Adam Jones beat the throw to continue the inning.

    At least Lowrie can make the throws when he gets to the ball (and when he's healthy).
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    I must be watching a different brand of baseball than some of you here.  Scutaro was injured all of last season and played through it to help the team.  This year, he has been fine in the field and productive at the plate.  And the Sox have the best record in the American League.  Scutaro/Lowrie is the least of our worries.  The Sox have to get the pitchers healthy.  There is no reason this team can't get to 95-96 wins with Scutaro and Lowrie at ss.  What brought this thread on?  Boredom?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]The bottom line is: We are not currently in the "golden age of the shortstop." Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel , etc. have all gone away. Even some of the lesser lights of that era, Gary Templeton, John Valentine, etc. would be top shortstops in this era. Back in the early 70's not many teams had a skilled offensive shortstop, they leaned toward a SS tha could field his position and offense was a bonus. I think we are currently heading down that same path. Which means if Iglesias is the defensive wiz we think he is going to be, we should be fine.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]
    Theo has not shown any partiality to a SS with a weak stick. There may or may not be a trend back towards satisfaction with "good glove/no hit." But it will be at least a mild surprise if Theo takes that route. 
    Right now Iglesias would be an automatic out in the big leagues, and he has a long way to go.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : Are we watching the same players in the field?  Scutaro needs to move to 2B as he has no arm whatsoever and has become a liability in the field.  While he can still get to balls, he can no longer make throws once he gets there.  Remember the last game before the break?  3 infield singles, all to Scutaro.  One of them coming because he knows he can't make a routine throw to first, which is why he tossed it to 2B and Adam Jones beat the throw to continue the inning. At least Lowrie can make the throws when he gets to the ball (and when he's healthy).
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]

    Never said he was Ozzie Smith. Just said Scutaro was adequate, which he is. Yes, he doesn't have the best arm and it might have had something to do with one of those plays, but SS and 2B often take the shorter throw to 2B on force plays, depending on the play. 

    There's nothing wrong with eventually trying to upgrade the position defensively, but it ranks probably at the bottom in terms of needs.

    I laugh when people start clamoring for a defensive SS who is hitting .230 or less because it's just a matter of time before they'll start postig about the black hole in the lineup or the automatic out.

    Scutaro and Lowrie give an acceptable combination of offense and defense. If there bats slop a lot, then they're not worth having there but if they've been hitting well enough for the most part.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]I must be watching a different brand of baseball than some of you here.  Scutaro was injured all of last season and played through it to help the team.  This year, he has been fine in the field and productive at the plate.  And the Sox have the best record in the American League.  Scutaro/Lowrie is the least of our worries.  The Sox have to get the pitchers healthy.  There is no reason this team can't get to 95-96 wins with Scutaro and Lowrie at ss.  What brought this thread on?  Boredom?
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]


     This is what kills me about "watching the games". I watch every game as well and according to my eyes I see a team that goes through underperforming spells much more often then they should be and that should reflect on the manager but according to some... the record don't reflect that !! To say the Sox are fine at SS or RF but need help with pitching can easily be turned around to say they are fine with Pitching but need help at SS and RF because they have the best record in the AL, what's the difference? Yes, I would prefer a stronger pitching staff but, for all intents and purposes we already have them under contract. The bullpen has been pitching better, thanks to new pitching Coach, and the Starters just have to get healthy since none of their injuries are season threatening, at least to this point they aren't. However, SS and RF problems aren't going to be solved that easily from within. I would like to see Reddick "Play" his way out of RF just as Drew or Cameron has but, the powers to be prefer him to "Rust/Platoon" his way out. With the amount of production the Sox have gotten out of RF, Reddick should have been playing everyday to make the decision with RF an easier one. I don't see any help from within at SS. I'm sure we will be fine there with either Lowrey or Scutaro, providing we don't have a significant dropoff from the top 6 in the lineup. Varitek and Salty have been a Major plus, offensively, to this point and hopefully that will continue. The Sox will still win 103 games and the WS this season despite all their short comings which means, according to their record, there were no short comings after all!! LOL
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : I definitely agree with you.  I really wish that the Red Sox had resigned him.  He was a great addition to the Red Sox and was not the best offensive player, but still adequate. 
    Posted by susan250[/QUOTE]

    heck, I'd take Alex Cora over Scutaro.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop :  This is what kills me about "watching the games". I watch every game as well and according to my eyes I see a team that goes through underperforming spells much more often then they should be and that should reflect on the manager but according to some... the record don't reflect that !! To say the Sox are fine at SS or RF but need help with pitching can easily be turned around to say they are fine with Pitching but need help at SS and RF because they have the best record in the AL, what's the difference? Yes, I would prefer a stronger pitching staff but, for all intents and purposes we already have them under contract. The bullpen has been pitching better, thanks to new pitching Coach, and the Starters just have to get healthy since none of their injuries are season threatening, at least to this point they aren't. However, SS and RF problems aren't going to be solved that easily from within. I would like to see Reddick "Play" his way out of RF just as Drew or Cameron has but, the powers to be prefer him to "Rust/Platoon" his way out. With the amount of production the Sox have gotten out of RF, Reddick should have been playing everyday to make the decision with RF an easier one. I don't see any help from within at SS. I'm sure we will be fine there with either Lowrey or Scutaro, providing we don't have a significant dropoff from the top 6 in the lineup. Varitek and Salty have been a Major plus, offensively, to this point and hopefully that will continue. The Sox will still win 103 games and the WS this season despite all their short comings which means, according to their record, there were no short comings after all!! LOL
    Posted by ALaGatorAL[/QUOTE]

    The difference is that shortstop has not been the cause of issues this season.  Bullpen hiccups and starters on the DL have been.  Drew has struggled so if you want to upgrade that area of concern, I understand that.  It is just in my opinion, ss has not been the problem.  Sorry, I don't mean to say things that "kill you".
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    If you get maximum offensive production out of 1B, 2B, 3B, LF,CF and RF, you can afford to have a catcher and a shortstop who are mainly defensive players.

    However the shortstop of the Mark Belanger type who barely hits .200 just won't do in today's MLB. I would say a MLB shortstop should be hitting at least .230 ...if he is an exceptional defender.

    Problem is the Sox are not getting "maximum" offense from LF, RF and catcher, although the catching position is improving from April's dismal status. If RF and LF would produce more offense it would surely offset the deficiencies at shortstop.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : The difference is that shortstop has not been the cause of issues this season.  Bullpen hiccups and starters on the DL have been.  Drew has struggled so if you want to upgrade that area of concern, I understand that.  It is just in my opinion, ss has not been the problem.  Sorry, I don't mean to say things that "kill you".
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    Have to agree. Although we don't have the best situation a SS, we have been able to cover it without a problem, and it has not hurt the team in any way. Even though Lowrie started out hot, he started to fade rapidly before going on the DL, so there's no gaurantee he would have continued to put up strong offensive numbers......and his defense is just adequate, no better than Scutaro.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : Never said he was Ozzie Smith. Just said Scutaro was adequate, which he is. Yes, he doesn't have the best arm and it might have had something to do with one of those plays, but SS and 2B often take the shorter throw to 2B on force plays, depending on the play.  There's nothing wrong with eventually trying to upgrade the position defensively, but it ranks probably at the bottom in terms of needs. I laugh when people start clamoring for a defensive SS who is hitting .230 or less because it's just a matter of time before they'll start postig about the black hole in the lineup or the automatic out. Scutaro and Lowrie give an acceptable combination of offense and defense. If there bats slop a lot, then they're not worth having there but if they've been hitting well enough for the most part.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    I'm certainly not arguing with their offense this season, and I'm not clamoring for a SS hitting .230 who's all glove either.  I just want a SS who doesn't hurt his team on defense (which can't be said for either Scutaro nor Lowrie).  Personally, I want to see Navarro at SS, as he offers a nice mix of good defense and should be good enough with the bat given regular playing time.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : Have to agree. Although we don't have the best situation a SS, we have been able to cover it without a problem, and it has not hurt the team in any way. Even though Lowrie started out hot, he started to fade rapidly before going on the DL, so there's no gaurantee he would have continued to put up strong offensive numbers......and his defense is just adequate, no better than Scutaro.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    While I certainly didn't expect him to maintain his hot start, he only faded after injuring his shoulder in his collision with Crawford.  The same injury he went on the DL for.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : I'm certainly not arguing with their offense this season, and I'm not clamoring for a SS hitting .230 who's all glove either.  I just want a SS who doesn't hurt his team on defense (which can't be said for either Scutaro nor Lowrie).  Personally, I want to see Navarro at SS, as he offers a nice mix of good defense and should be good enough with the bat given regular playing time.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]
    You may get your wish in time, if not this year then next year, when Navarro will probably get a shot at the job in ST -- unless Iglesias goes crazy at the plate in Pawtucket.  Not likely. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : Not bad? He's batting .231 and has a .607 OPS. Of course he's better defensively, but SS is hardly a major problem. Scutaro and Lowrie are adequate defensively and both are better at the plate.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    True...he is hitting 231 this year but he is only a career 247 hitter ,,,,,though he is a career 257 hitter with RISP and more importantly he is a career 279 hitter at Fenway.....and considering his defense and the fact that it looks like Lowrie could be out a while....I think he would be a great pickup.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]Jed Lowrie hasn't swung a bat in a month and can't stay healthy, Marco Scutaro throws like a girl and would-be savior Iglesias can't hit AAA pitching. I've read a number of comments here from fans claiming they don't care if Iglesias hits as long as he fields his position, but I think that's a big steaming pile of malarkey - Drew is one of the best defensive right fielders in the game, but how do we like his .220 batting average? I know shortstop is a fairly thin position throughout MLB right now, but if Mr Epstein was really deserving of all the accolades thrown his way it seems like he could solve this one.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    After last season I really thought Lowrie was over the medical issues but it appears he just may be one of those rare "often injured" players throughout his career.  For Jed's sake I hope not but we do have a SS, SP and possibly RF issue that may need to be addressed.  In most of the reports I have read it doesn't appear Theo will be giving up any good young prospects on a SP.  Hopefully he knows more than we do and the "big three" will be back soon.

    It does sound like Theo is trying to address RF, whether it may be for a RH platoon guy or starter I really don't know.  I don't see Theo upgrading SS unless he feels Iglesias won't work out and at 21 he will probably be given more time to develop before making any drastic move.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    pinstripe, to answer your question, the reason i go by dannycater is that my favorite pitcher as a kid was lefty sparky lyle, which for a while was one of the most one-sided trades in MLB history. I keep it as a reminder that the Sox probably could won the 75 WS title prior to '04 had they kept the reliever of Lyle's ability. Lyle would have been there in the 9th after Willoughby, not Jim Burton, who albeit threw a pretty good pitch to Morgan, but he should never have been put in that spot by Darrell Johnson
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]Jed Lowrie hasn't swung a bat in a month and can't stay healthy, Marco Scutaro throws like a girl and would-be savior Iglesias can't hit AAA pitching. I've read a number of comments here from fans claiming they don't care if Iglesias hits as long as he fields his position, but I think that's a big steaming pile of malarkey - Drew is one of the best defensive right fielders in the game, but how do we like his .220 batting average? I know shortstop is a fairly thin position throughout MLB right now, but if Mr Epstein was really deserving of all the accolades thrown his way it seems like he could solve this one.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]
    For what it's worth, the Red Sox have the league's best won/loss record getting 1.7 WAR* out of the shortstop position to the 0.8 WAR posted by the Yankees and the 0.1 WAR posted by the Rays:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=ss&lg=al&stats=bat&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop

    In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The return of the black hole at shortstop : I'm certainly not arguing with their offense this season, and I'm not clamoring for a SS hitting .230 who's all glove either.  I just want a SS who doesn't hurt his team on defense (which can't be said for either Scutaro nor Lowrie).  Personally, I want to see Navarro at SS, as he offers a nice mix of good defense and should be good enough with the bat given regular playing time.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]


    yyyyyup.
     

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