The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bigpapa1977. Show Bigpapa1977's posts

    The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    They shouldn't have lowballed either of these guys.  Aceves at $900,000?  Really?  Ortiz at a 1.2 % raise?

    If they had chosen $13.25M - $13.50M for Ortiz, they likely would have won the case (versus Ortiz's $16.5 MM).

    It is one thing to be frugal, it is a whole other thing to be foolish and cheap.

    I hope that both cases go to arbitration and they lose both.  They may learn a lesson....



    http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21173081/sox-preparing-go-arb-ortiz-aceves?utm_source=Today+in+Sports%3A++February+01%2C+2012&utm_campaign=Feb+01+2012&utm_medium=email


    Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington said on Monday that the Red Sox will remain open to reaching a deal with David Ortiz and Alfredo Aceves right up to the point of conducting an arbitration hearing, but he did acknowledge that the Sox have been put in a position where they must prepare for arbitration hearings with both based on the fact that there has not yet been grounds for an agreement.

    Ortiz and the Red Sox had a significant gap in their filing values, with the Sox offering a $12.65 million salary to their longtime lineup staple, and Ortiz requesting $16.5 million. Ortiz hit .309 with a .398 OBP, .554 slugging mark and .953 OPS along with 29 homers and 96 RBI in 2011.

    Aceves went 10-2 with a 2.61 ERA in 114 innings. His 24-3 record gives him the highest winning percentage of all time (.889) among pitchers with at least 25 big league decisions. Aceves filed for a $1.6 million salary, while the Sox filed at $900,000.

    "We’ve had continued dialogue with both guys. I couldn’t handicap it right now," said Cherington. "We’re just going to prepare for the case. We’re a team that will continue to talk right up until the hearing. We’ll see what happens up until then."

    The swing in the Red Sox' budget could be more than $4 million, but Cherington suggested that the outcome of the two arbitration cases would not reshape the course of the team's offseason.

    "I don’t think [the results of the cases are] significant, no," said Cherington. "Sure, if you go to a hearing there’s a chance you win, a chance you lose. Depending on the outcome, it changes your payroll to some degree. To that extent, it changes things to some degree, but I wouldn’t say it’s significant."

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Agree w/ Aceves, But for him its all about service time and getting past arb. yrs. He'll get a big raise next year as long as he pitches like he has in the past. It's the only time team has some control over a players cost can you blame them. As for Ortiz, for me 16.5 is too high, think they'll settle around 15 which still makes him the highest pd DH in the league, unless you count Arod.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from adam4522. Show adam4522's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    16.5m, 15m, 13m...this guys is one of the most one dimensional players in the league.  Yeah he can hit, but he cannot run or play in the field.  Such a limited player, even one who could hit like he does, should be no more than a $8m player in my eyes.  The anchor to the roster he is should have been simply non-tendered.  Fine, they tendered him to get the draft picks, but now if he wins, they are paying double what I think he is worth.  Maybe they should just cut him if they loose, and call it a lost gamble for draft picks.  When you factor him winning into the costs savings associated in being under the cap for even one year I would cut him for sure.  He could turn around and hit 210 for a couple of months again, especially if all of this contract stuff has been a distraction...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]They shouldn't have lowballed either of these guys.  Aceves at $900,000?  Really?  Ortiz at a 1.2 % raise? If they had chosen $13.25M - $13.50M for Ortiz, they likely would have won the case (versus Ortiz's $16.5 MM). It is one thing to be frugal, it is a whole other thing to be foolish and cheap. I hope that both cases go to arbitration and they lose both.  They may learn a lesson....

    What if Papi was significantly overpaid in 2011 because of a contract signed years ago when he was a dominant hitter?  Are you saying every player should always get a salary increase regardless of their performance?

    Frankly, though I respect his history and want him back for 2012 based on his solid 2011, I wouldn't want him back for $10m, certainly not 12 or, gulp, 15.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Aceves is another story....seems like a terribly low number submitted by the Sox....but then again, Aceves' submission seems pretty low too.  I'll be very happy to have Aceves at 1.6m, thrilled at .9m....either way, no big deal.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    I think Ortiz would have accepted a $14M offer, and offering Aceves $.9M was a slap in the face, for what he did for this team in 2011.
    The offers made to both Oswalt and Jackson were insulting to say the least, and so far, BC is making the Red Sox look like the team to stay away from.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Re. Aceves--he will win if he goes to Arb. He has been consistently valuable for three years--he deserves twice his asking price.

    Ortiz-I do not believe he will win his case. I agree if he wins cut him and find the best available 3 B for one season. Move Youk to DH or sign Vlad or Damon for one year and keep Youk at third for as long as he is healthy. 

    Use the balance of the money wisely for the best starting pitcher available.

    If Ortiz loses he will be tough to live with---if he wins he's way overpaid--pay him whatever he is due and move on.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Aceves wins.  No way Ortiz gets his 16 figure.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    I just read that the Phillies are two million over the luxury tax threshhold of $178 mil. and are looking to shed salary. Now there are three "cheap" franchises. Perhaps one of these days fans will understand what is going on.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]I just read that the Phillies are two million over the luxury tax threshhold of $178 mil. and are looking to shed salary. Now there are three "cheap" franchises. Perhaps one of these days fans will understand what is going on.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]

    Fans do understand. Teams don't want to redistribute income to lesser markets.
    If fans were receiving dividends from investments in these franchises, then I can certainly understand their support of the LT threshold, but most fans don't give a crap, and only want the guys who will help win a championship, regardless what the owners have to pay.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases.... : Fans do understand. Teams don't want to redistribute income to lesser markets. If fans were receiving dividends from investments in these franchises, then I can certainly understand their support of the LT threshold, but most fans don't give a crap, and only want the guys who will help win a championship, regardless what the owners have to pay.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    So you would prefer that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet buy out John Henry and have a budget with no ceiling and have a payroll that doubles that of the Yankees. Would it be exciting to win the pennant by twenty games every year. You are some fan.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from accland. Show accland's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    If you think that players will stay away from the sox because they are "cheap", what do you think will happen if Papi wins the $16 mil and the sox cut him? Disloyalty will be recognized and not be accepted by future free agents.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]If you think that players will stay away from the sox because they are "cheap", what do you think will happen if Papi wins the $16 mil and the sox cut him? Disloyalty will be recognized and not be accepted by future free agents.
    Posted by accland[/QUOTE]

    The Sox will not cut Papi.  It would be a PR disaster, which is the last thing this team needs.  And Henry is very fond of Papi.  It's a non-issue.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]Aceves wins.  No way Ortiz gets his 16 figure.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    ^^^This.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bigpapa1977. Show Bigpapa1977's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    What if Papi was significantly overpaid in 2011 because of a contract signed years ago when he was a dominant hitter? Are you saying every player should always get a salary increase regardless of their performance?

    Frankly, though I respect his history and want him back for 2012 based on his solid 2011, I wouldn't want him back for $10m, certainly not 12 or, gulp, 15.

    I don't think that he is 'worth' $16.5 million or even $12.65 million.  Players ALWAYS receive more in arbitration than they made in the previous season. The Sox just had to come up with a slightly higher number (say $13.25 million) and they would likely have won the case (if it came down to an actual hearing).  I just don't see how they win by offering a 1.2 % raise.

    Clearly the Sox should have just said, hey, 'we can't offer you a two year deal at over $9 million per' and non-tendered him.  They should have said 'the 18 million over two years is on the table and you can sign it up until Feburary 1'.  Unfortunately for the Sox (and fortunately for Papi), they tendered him and they may owe him $16.5 million for 2012.

    BTW, if he uses Victor Martinez or Adam Dunn as comps (12.5 -13 million), then he clearly outperformed them in 2011.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    It could be that they didn't really want Ortiz and offered him arbitration in hopes he'd turn it down and they'd get a draft pick when he went someplace else, although there's usually an agreement in place that the player will say no thanks to the offer before it's officially made.

    If they thought Ortiz was worth $12.65 and he wanted $16.5, then it was dumb to offer him arbitration. 

    Offering Aceves under a million seems petty.

    Baseball salaries seem so out of whack.  Aceves makes dick while other relievers get $6million. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases.... : So you would prefer that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet buy out John Henry and have a budget with no ceiling and have a payroll that doubles that of the Yankees. Would it be exciting to win the pennant by twenty games every year. You are some fan.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]

    Are you for real? Big salaries don't necessarily translate into championships. Team chemistry does. But since free agency and collective bargaining have rocketed players salaries into outer space, you have to pay to get quality, but Ben is shopping at Big Lots hoping damaged goods can still be effective.

    Also, if the owners are so worried about the LTT, then MLB should negotiate a salary cap.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases.... : Are you for real? Big salaries don't necessarily translate into championships. Team chemistry does. But since free agency and collective bargaining have rocketed players salaries into outer space, you have to pay to get quality, but Ben is shopping at Big Lots hoping damaged goods can still be effective. Also, if the owners are so worried about the LTT, then MLB should negotiate a salary cap.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]
     Thats one way to look at it Ike.  Another is:  ben is shopping at Big Lots because the club is sick of going to Macy's and buying the  John Lackeys on display in the front.  And, make no mistake, thats what Macys has on the rack this year too.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_3965396. Show user_3965396's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Do people really want the Red Sox run like the Yankees?  It's bad enough we have the second highest payroll...I would not cheer for a team like the Yankees no matter what color uniform they wear.  Stick to the budget Ben!!!!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases.... : The Sox will not cut Papi.  It would be a PR disaster, which is the last thing this team needs.  And Henry is very fond of Papi.  It's a non-issue.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Unless they come to an agreement with Papi this whole arbitration thing is going to be a disaster no matter who wins. 

    If it goes to arbitration Papi is going to have to sit there and listen to why the Sox don't think he's worth $16MM. 

    Even if he wins he will think the Sox don't appreciate his contribution enough and if he loses he'll think he's being abused (@$12MM!).   

    Either way, with Papi's ego and clubhouse presence he's going to be a disaster in the making.

    IMO they have no choice BUT to sign him before arbitration.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]They shouldn't have lowballed either of these guys.  Aceves at $900,000?  Really?  Ortiz at a 1.2 % raise? If they had chosen $13.25M - $13.50M for Ortiz, they likely would have won the case (versus Ortiz's $16.5 MM). It is one thing to be frugal, it is a whole other thing to be foolish and cheap. I hope that both cases go to arbitration and they lose both.  They may learn a lesson.... http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21173081/sox-preparing-go-arb-ortiz-aceves?utm_source=Today+in+Sports%3A++February+01%2C+2012&utm_campaign=Feb+01+2012&utm_medium=email Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington said on Monday that the Red Sox will remain open to reaching a deal with David Ortiz and Alfredo Aceves right up to the point of conducting an arbitration hearing, but he did acknowledge that the Sox have been put in a position where they must prepare for arbitration hearings with both based on the fact that there has not yet been grounds for an agreement. Ortiz and the Red Sox had a significant gap in their filing values, with the Sox offering a $12.65 million salary to their longtime lineup staple, and Ortiz requesting $16.5 million. Ortiz hit .309 with a .398 OBP, .554 slugging mark and .953 OPS along with 29 homers and 96 RBI in 2011. Aceves went 10-2 with a 2.61 ERA in 114 innings. His 24-3 record gives him the highest winning percentage of all time (.889) among pitchers with at least 25 big league decisions. Aceves filed for a $1.6 million salary, while the Sox filed at $900,000. "We’ve had continued dialogue with both guys. I couldn’t handicap it right now," said Cherington. "We’re just going to prepare for the case. We’re a team that will continue to talk right up until the hearing. We’ll see what happens up until then." The swing in the Red Sox' budget could be more than $4 million, but Cherington suggested that the outcome of the two arbitration cases would not reshape the course of the team's offseason. "I don’t think [the results of the cases are] significant, no," said Cherington. "Sure, if you go to a hearing there’s a chance you win, a chance you lose. Depending on the outcome, it changes your payroll to some degree. To that extent, it changes things to some degree, but I wouldn’t say it’s significant."
    Posted by Bigpapa1977[/QUOTE]

    If Ortiz wins and it's too much, they can release him with 30 days pay. Then they can sign pitcher or make a trade for Garza. They don't really need Ortiz if they improve the pitching.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]What if Papi was significantly overpaid in 2011 because of a contract signed years ago when he was a dominant hitter? Are you saying every player should always get a salary increase regardless of their performance? Frankly, though I respect his history and want him back for 2012 based on his solid 2011, I wouldn't want him back for $10m, certainly not 12 or, gulp, 15. I don't think that he is 'worth' $16.5 million or even $12.65 million.  Players ALWAYS receive more in arbitration than they made in the previous season. The Sox just had to come up with a slightly higher number (say $13.25 million) and they would likely have won the case (if it came down to an actual hearing).  I just don't see how they win by offering a 1.2 % raise. Clearly the Sox should have just said, hey, 'we can't offer you a two year deal at over $9 million per' and non-tendered him.  They should have said 'the 18 million over two years is on the table and you can sign it up until Feburary 1'.  Unfortunately for the Sox (and fortunately for Papi), they tendered him and they may owe him $16.5 million for 2012. BTW, if he uses Victor Martinez or Adam Dunn as comps (12.5 -13 million), then he clearly outperformed them in 2011.
    Posted by Bigpapa1977[/QUOTE]

    The Red Sox made their own bed by being greedy and hoping for a 1st round draft pick. They could have not offered him arbitration and probably saved $6-8M per year, which would have allowed them to get Oswalt or even Garza. But again, they got greedy. There's no market for a slow one dimensional DH who can't play the field.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    I know that if Ortiz wins the contract is non guaranteed and the Sox could cut him in the Spring for "baseball reasons" and they have to pay a small portion of the salary, but does cutting him affect the draft pick comp they get for offering him arbitration?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    Nearly every arbitration case gets settled by comprimising so one could say that both management and the player lose arbitration cases since they fail to get what they desired. It's like when you haggle with a car salesman, who really wins or loses?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....

    In Response to Re: The Sox are going to lose BOTH arbitration cases....:
    [QUOTE]I know that if Ortiz wins the contract is non guaranteed and the Sox could cut him in the Spring for "baseball reasons" and they have to pay a small portion of the salary, but does cutting him affect the draft pick comp they get for offering him arbitration?
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    No.  They would only have received the draft picks if Ortiz had turned down the arbitration offer and declared himself a free agent, and then signed with another team.

    The Sox get no picks for offering Ortiz arbitration and having him accept.
     

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