The Way I See It.....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    The Way I See It.....

    ....is that we knew it was going to be a difficult adjustment, regardless of player personnel, to a new GM and manager. Especially with the cronyism of Francona's leadership style.
    The only way for this team to turn it around is for the veteran's to get on board and support their manager, but I don't believe that is what's happening. I think they have been used to doing their own thing for too long, and there is resentment in the clubhouse. The fans booing BV every time he makes a pitching change makes matters worse.
    Valentine can only play the hand he was dealt, and if the players don't support him both on the field, in the clubhouse, and in the media, this team will continue to fail.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    There are a dozen reasons for the poor start and zeroing in on any one of them such as speculating that it is all due to a poor attitude of the players is absurd. It however is more appealing for a media writer or a thread starter to scapegoat since that tactic has been proven to sell more papers and generate longer threads.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]....is that we knew it was going to be a difficult adjustment, regardless of player personnel, to a new GM and manager. Especially with the cronyism of Francona's leadership style. The only way for this team to turn it around is for the veteran's to get on board and support their manager, but I don't believe that is what's happening. I think they have been used to doing their own thing for too long, and there is resentment in the clubhouse. The fans booing BV every time he makes a pitching change makes matters worse. Valentine can only play the hand he was dealt, and if the players don't support him both on the field, in the clubhouse, and in the media, this team will continue to fail.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    It is a managers job to get the players to "get on board". That is all that needs to be said on that topic.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    How do you get players back on board who are playing at the worst of their abilities? How do you reverse ten unexpected injuries? How do you force batters to hit more often in clutch situations?
     
    For starters you can remove that hammer from Ben's office that was used to smash Bailey's thumb and tell Ellsbury not to slide into second when every fan in the ballpark knew that the secondbaseman was going to fall on top of him.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    THE PROBLEM WITH THE RED SOX IS PLAYER QUALITY.  WE JUST
    DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OF IT IN THE OFFENSIVE DEPARTMENT.
    ONLY PEDEY, AGON, AND PAPI CAN PRODUCE OFFENSIVELY, AND
    ONLY PAPI HAS LEGIT HR POWER. THE OTHER 5 OR 6 POSITIONS
    ARE LIKE CAULKING...JUST PUT IN TO COVER UP EMPTINESS.
    DON'T TELL BOSTON FANS THAT SHOPPACH, AVILES, MACDONALD,
    REPKO, SPEARS, SALTY, ETC. ARE MAJOR LEAGUE QUALITY BATS.
    THAT IS A LIE. THEY AREN'T AND NEVER WILL BE. AVILES CAN'T
    FIELD HIS POSITION WELL AND HAD TWO GLARING ERRORS IN THE
    FENWAY MELTDOWN ON SATURDAY.  NO OPPOSING PITCHER WILL
    QUAKE IN HIS SHOES WHEN THE BOSTON FILL-INS COME TO THE
    PLATE !  NO ONE IS AFRAID OF AVILES, SALTY, REPKO, MCDONALD,
    ROSS OR SHOPPACH AT BAT...AND YET , THESE ARE THE GUYS
    WE ARE TROTTING OUT THERE DAILY.  THEY CAN'T PRODUCE
    OFFENSE.  EVEN MINNESOTA CAN PUT MAUER AND MORNEAU IN
    A LINEUP..THE SOX DON'T EVEN HAVE A SECOND GOOD POWER
    GUY.  SO IF WE CAN'T SCORE RUNS OFF ANYONE BUT FREDDY 
    GARCIA, WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE A LAST PLACE TEAM.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]How do you get players back on board who are playing at the worst of their abilities? How do you reverse ten unexpected injuries? How do you force batters to hit more often in clutch situations?   For starters you can remove that hammer from Ben's office that was used to smash Bailey's thumb and tell Ellsbury not to slide into second when every fan in the ballpark knew that the secondbaseman was going to fall on top of him.
    Posted by 6k42lt913c[/QUOTE]

    Again.  It's a manager's job to get players to be on board with his agenda.

    In any organization, in any walk of life.

    This isn't something to be argued about.  It is factual. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    The team isn't losing because of the manager or because of veteran players.  They are losing because the BP is terrible.  No amount of coaching and no amount of getting on board is going to change that.

    Oh, and don't blame the fans for booing BV.  They aren't booing BV.  They are booing because it's not Francona. 

    This organization has turned into a nightmare.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Way I See It..... : Again.  It's a manager's job to get players to be on board with his agenda. In any organization, in any walk of life. This isn't something to be argued about.  It is factual. 
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    You mean that a manager should be able to squeeze water out of a stone. Are you saying that the best manager in MLB can turn around the worst team in MLB. Better yet, Sarah Palin could be the Republican nominee if only she had the best campaign adviser.

    According to your logic, the 1965 Red Sox with a record of 62-100 and managed by Billy Herman could have won the pennant that year with Dick Williams as manager. That is factual, right?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Way I See It..... : You mean that a manager should be able to squeeze water out of a stone. Are you saying that the best manager in MLB can turn around the worst team in MLB. Better yet, Sarah Palin could be the Republican nominee if only she had the best campaign adviser. According to your logic, the 1965 Red Sox with a record of 62-100 and managed by Billy Herman could have won the pennant that year with Dick Williams as manager. That is factual, right?
    Posted by 6k42lt913c[/QUOTE]

    It's almost like you are responding to someone elses posts.  Please point out where I said anything resembling this blather above.

    What I am saying it that it is a managers job to get the players to buy into their agenda.  I am not talking about success, or wins and losses. I never even inferred anything about that. You need to try and pay attention to the words that are written on the screen in front of you.

    It is amazing that you want to argue about that one simple statement. That is factual.  do you think a manager was ever hired in any organization by someone that said "Yeah we really don't care whether your employee's listen to you or respect you or not"?



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    Are the players not onboard with Valentine? Is there empirical evidence of this or is it speculation? Does the media know? Has Dr. Phil done an analysis? Why is this issue up for discussion unless there is some hard evidence?
     
    Are teams that are in first place now there because their players are onboard with their manager? Where is that clear-cut evidence? Where is the equation that measures such things? A month ago many in this forum were convinced that BV would be the solution for the "perceived team morale problems". Where are those posters now and why have they been silent or have done an about face? Are they only looking at the W-L record and forgetting that many players are stinking out the joint or else got injured?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]Are the players not onboard with Valentine? Is there empirical evidence of this or is it speculation? Does the media know? Has Dr. Phil done an analysis? Why is this issue up for discussion unless there is some hard evidence?   Are teams that are in first place now there because their players are onboard with their manager? Where is that clear-cut evidence? Where is the equation that measures such things? A month ago many in this forum were convinced that BV would be the solution for the "perceived team morale problems". Where are those posters now and why have they been silent or have done an about face? Are they only looking at the W-L record and forgetting that many players are stinking out the joint or else got injured?
    Posted by 6k42lt913c[/QUOTE]

    Are you talking to yourself? This is truly odd.

    The original OP said something to the effect the "players need to get on board with the manager".  I then said that was the managers job to make sure the players were on board with his agenda. I said nothing to the effect of whether or not they were.  I said nothing about it being Bobby V's fault.  I said nothing about Sarah Palin or wins and losses.

    I said it is a managers job to make sure his team/subordinates are on board with his agenda.  It is truly wild that we are still going back and forth about that very simple and very true statement.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    For the GM, it is an easy fix. This group of veterans is a dead half a billion dollar corpse with zero playoff wins over the last 3 years. 

    The only way to shut up old non-performing MLBPA tenured veterans is to trade one of them to the Siberias of MLB. Obviously, it's over for Youk, he's been a good soldier for the Red Sox for many years but it is time to pull the plug. Youk can still be a lower order supporting cast member, but since he is a poor fielder at 3rd, that does the Red Sox no good. The Red Sox have a few solid 3B prospects, so it's past time to give Middlebrooks his partial season of sink or swim look. Cherry should try to trade Youk to the Reds for a solid pen arm, Youk won't net the elite RH bat the Red Sox need. If the Reds won't make a decent deal, see if the Indians will. Pick up part of Youk's remaining contract.

    I like Youk and have never considered Bobby V a magic pill, but if management wants to break up the dead corpse clubhouse and shake up the veterans then Youk should be traded for a supporting cast member that will improve what is already in place. Middlebrooks will be an immediate better defender because of more range, and is currently showing in AAA that he can be at least a marginal MLB plate profile.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    The OP was about what needs to happen for this team to win and I think that 6k has some good points.

    I think that 6k (and please forgive me if I am wrong) is trying to say that team sucess is not 100% correlated with how strongly such team believes in its manager.  He is trying to say that even if the team was 100% behind Bobby, we would still have a plethora of problems.

    I happen to agree.  I think that in sports , managers get too much credit when things go well and get too much blame when they dont.  Bobby V deserves some blame for 2012, but not nearly the amount he is getting.  Its not his fault that Youk suddently got old, that Ells got hurt, that the team spent too much on Lackey and couldnt get another starter, that Melancon has been awful, that Bailey got hurt.

    As 6K said, "there are dozens of reasons for this poor start."  He is right.  Fixing one of them is a good start, but its not going to completely "turn this team around."

    The players lack of faith in Bobby V is only one of the reasons for the poor start.  And to be honest, its probably not the biggest reason either.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    Hank, you're on the right track but for the wrong reasons.

    The Sox won't make any moves to help the team for this year.  but they could make moves to improve the team next year.

    At the AS break, trade Youk for a prospect.  Not because there is anything wrong with Youk, but because the heir apparent is waiting in the wings. 

    If Dice K is healthy and effective, trade him for prospects as well.  Hope that Jenks and Bailey get healthy, and trade both of those guys for prospects.

    I would even consider trading Ellsbury if they don't plan to keep him, or Carwford if they can get anything for him.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]For the GM, it is an easy fix. This group of veterans is a dead half a billion dollar corpse with zero playoff wins over the last 3 years.  The only way to shut up old non-performing MLBPA tenured veterans is to trade one of them to the Siberias of MLB. Obviously, it's over for Youk, he's been a good soldier for the Red Sox for many years but it is time to pull the plug. Youk can still be a lower order supporting cast member, but since he is a poor fielder at 3rd, that does the Red Sox no good. The Red Sox have a few solid 3B prospects, so it's past time to give Middlebrooks his partial season of sink or swim look. Cherry should try to trade Youk to the Reds for a solid pen arm, Youk won't net the elite RH bat the Red Sox need. If the Reds won't make a decent deal, see if the Indians will. Pick up part of Youk's remaining contract. I like Youk and have never considered Bobby V a magic pill, but if management wants to break up the dead corpse clubhouse and shake up the veterans then Youk should be traded for a supporting cast member that will improve what is already in place. Middlebrooks will be an immediate better defender because of more range, and is currently showing in AAA that he can be at least a marginal MLB plate profile.
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]

    This doesnt fix the main problem on the Sox (a lack of talent).  If you want to "send a message" by trading away part of your current core, then you have to acknowledge that you are sending this team into a rebuilding / win later phase.

    I'm not disagreeing with you, but merely pointing out that with or without Youk, we dont have enough studs to compete with the Tigers.  We need an attitude change AND more studs.  

    We have 1/3 of a lineup (Pedey, Gonzo, Ortiz), 1 dependable starter (who wasnt even that last time out), and an atrocious bullpen.

    Subtraction isnt going to solve any of these problems.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    It is the Mgrs. job to set the tone and focus the team. I am not sure the players ever gave him the opportunity. They seemed to be shut off to him before they even got to talk to him. As far as the players who don't seem to have prepared themselves to play it is totally on them. Guys like Papi seem to be doing what players do play. The blame is on the players who are derailing this team from before day one and management for not getting the help needed at the positions of need.

    If I was the GM I would have gone out and picked up Michael Cuddyer and then RF is set. We could have had him if we were willing to spend. Then I would have kept Scuttaro and had my plan set for Iglesias(sp) to take over by years end. Take a couple bench players whoever for that.... and for the pitching issue I say go out and pay what it takes to get Roy Oswalt and one more starter who could give you 200 innings and I would even trade for that guy and I would make anyone but Lester and Bucholz and Bard available in that deal. This rotation misses a guy like Wakefield who eats innings and saves the pen while being a .500 pitcher.
    As for the pen i would havew told Bard I will let you Begin the season as the 5th Starter but half way through I am going to ramp you down to a bull pen guy unless you are setting the league on fire then we will talk. Then Paps was gone no matter what we offered (almost) so go out and get Madsen or Cordero.
    Overall, this is money well spent and you could have moved Kalish in the deal.

    As for who manages... B. Val wouldn't have been my choice but under this scenario it would have ended differently I think.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    Obviously, the manager can't do anything about underperforming players unless it's an attitude adjustment that is needed.
    All I was really trying to point out  (without any concrete evidence other than speculation from a few media stories), is that, there seems to be dissention in the ranks, and losing makes a bad situation worse.
    The veteran ballplayers on this team have a lot of respect from the newbees and the younger guys, and can really set the example. I would just like to hear some positives from the players about BV.

    Snakeoil is right to a certain extent, but if the players are stone-walling Valentine, and not giving him a manager's respect (positionally, I know he must earn it personally), things can get out of hand.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]Obviously, the manager can't do anything about underperforming players unless it's an attitude adjustment that is needed. All I was really trying to point out  (without any concrete evidence other than speculation from a few media stories), is that, there seems to be dissention in the ranks, and losing makes a bad situation worse. The veteran ballplayers on this team have a lot of respect from the newbees and the younger guys, and can really set the example. I would just like to hear some positives from the players about BV. Snakeoil is right to a certain extent, but if the players are stone-walling Valentine, and not giving him a manager's respect (positionally, I know he must earn it personally), things can get out of hand.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    Right, it's the veterans' fault that the BP gave up 15 runs the other night.  If only the veterans showed more respect for Bobby V (respect he doesn't show them), then the team would be in first place.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]Obviously, the manager can't do anything about underperforming players unless it's an attitude adjustment that is needed. All I was really trying to point out  (without any concrete evidence other than speculation from a few media stories), is that, there seems to be dissention in the ranks, and losing makes a bad situation worse. The veteran ballplayers on this team have a lot of respect from the newbees and the younger guys, and can really set the example. I would just like to hear some positives from the players about BV. Snakeoil is right to a certain extent, but if the players are stone-walling Valentine, and not giving him a manager's respect (positionally, I know he must earn it personally), things can get out of hand.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    whether you put it on the players or not the point is that if a manager cannot control his teams attitude then the manager is not efficient.  As simple as that.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Way I See It..... : whether you put it on the players or not the point is that if a manager cannot control his teams attitude then the manager is not efficient.  As simple as that.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Point taken. But if one player has an attitude, and his teammates support it, rather than call him out, there's anarchy. You can't have that on a team.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: The Way I See It.....

    In Response to Re: The Way I See It.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Way I See It..... : Point taken. But if one player has an attitude, and his teammates support it, rather than call him out, there's anarchy. You can't have that on a team.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you.  I am just pointing out the fact that when there is anarchy the manager is the one that is taxed with fixing it.  It's a Catch-22.

     

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