Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : When you win a WS, you can make a claim 'no xxx, no WS for about 20 guys'. Lowe stunk mostly, but won three clinchers.  Manny was 6th in WAR, so you have 5 more players in front of him. Remove the names, and what you have is a guy that was 7th in WAR with by far the highest salary on the team.  The only playoff series that was in doubt was the ALCS, and Manny had -0- RBIs.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    There were not 20 players that were as essential to us making the playoffs and winning a ring let alone both rings. There was an "s" on ring.

    Joe, just because Manny had no RBIs in the 2004 series with the Yanks, does not mean he did not do some vital things to help us win. Cherry-picking one series as the be-all-end-all is not fair either. Without Manny (and a few others) , we don't get to that series anyway. Besides, let's have a closer look at that 2004 series...

    Game 1: Down 8-5 man on 2B and 2 outs, Manny singles and Papi triples in 2 runs to make it a one run game. Manny makes an out: the inning is over.

    Game 2: Down 3-1 in the 9th with 1 out: Manny doubles to give Papi and Millar a chance to tie. They both strike out and we lose.

    Game 3: We get killed 19-7.

    Game 4: The big turn around begins. Manny gets on base 5 out of 6 PAs. 5th inning, down 2-1, man on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs: Manny walks to load the bases. Papi singles in 2 to give us the lead. Manny makes out;the inning ends. 9th inning, 2 outs, man on 2nd and 3rd, Manny walks to load em up for Papi. We don't score and we go to extras... Manny singles in the 12th and Papi HRs. We win.

    Game 5: Elimination game #2. Manny gets on base 3 of 7 times in 14 innings. 1st inning 1 out, one on, Manny singles Cabrera to 3rd. Papi singles in Orlando. Later, 2 walks brings in another run. No runs score without Manny's walk. 14th inning, 2 outs and one on: Manny walks Damon to 2B. Papi singles in Damon and we win. No Manny walk: no run scores. Maybe no win.

    Game 6: Elination game #3. Manny goes 1 for 4 and we win 4-2 without Manny helping in any significant way.

    Game 7: 1st inning sets the tone. Damon on 2B and 1 out. Manny singles, but Damon is thrown out at home. Papi homers in Manny and we are up 2-0.  We never trail and win the game.

    Yes, others may have been "bigger" in this series, but to bring up the 0 RBI stat is misleading and fails to tell the whole story.

    Saying "No Manny- No Rings" does not mean...
    He was MVP of every game.
    He was the most important player.
    He and only he was responsible for the ring(s).
    We needed Manny in 2004 to win the ring.
    We needed Manny in 2007 to win the ring.

    We needed Manny, Papi and VTek to win both rings. Many others helped us win in 2004 OR 2007, but not both. 

    I posted the original thread as an answer to the many posters who tried to minimize Manny's accomplishments after the fact. The loved Manny in 2004 and 2007 and recognized his valuable input. When his antics became too much to handle, suddenly, many of these same posters now changed their tunes and acted like he was a minimal part of our success. It made it easier for them to deal with the Manny dilema. It made them feel cozier. I felt a strong need to keep things in perspective. No matter how many times I had to defend and explain the thread title, I stand by the very simple meaning that without Manny, we would not have a ring in 2004 or 2007. Sure, if we took the $20M and spent it wisely on other players, we may have still won, but that is not the point. My point was that if Manny was not there, we don't win both rings. It really should not have been a "controversial" thread. It wasn't meant to be and should not have been. The fact that so many posters went ape over it, in fact proved that there were many many posters who wanted to totally or partially erase Manny from Red Sox history.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    So your thread evolved into a battle over Manny, the person, and you were defending him as a person? 

    I did defend Manny as a person to some extent, and apologized after the steroid story came out. I am not perfect. At the time, I thought he was clean. I never said he was perfect, in fact, in the "No Manny- No Rings" thread, I called hima "jerk" over 20 times. One major sticking point on the thread, was my position that Theo could have handled the whole situation better. Manny was a child. Theo's job as a GM is to try and get the most out of all of his players. Theo did not help, and clearly did not want Manny on the team almost from the minute he became GM. He made his thoughts public. The whole MRI leak was unprofessional and actually proved nothing. While I do think Manny was milking (or inventing) an injury to pressure for a trade, the fact remains that no MRI can ever prove there is no injury or pain. MRIs and X-Rays can prove there is an injury, but can not prove there isn't one. When Theo made it public, it forced a trade. I thought it was dumb to do it, because once the league knew we "had to" trade Manny, we'd get dirt for him. I was surprised and happy we got JBay for him, and I praised Theo at the time for pulling it off. We still have players from JBay's comp picks on our team, so the payback for Manny may linger on.

    Why then did 23 out of 25 players vote to send him packing? 

    By that time, he had to go and I said as much. I never said we should have kept him, and never said we would not win again after he was traded. I'm not sure I believe the whole vote story, but it doesn't matter to me. He left, and JBay did great for us. I never said we'd have won in 2009 had Manny stayed. I do not think Manny would have put up the LAD numbers in Boston if he had stayed. I seriously doubt he would have. 

    Why then did Manny finally apologize to everyone on his final trip into Boston. Why was only one team , the Dodgers, interested in signing him? 

    They were the only ones interested in paying over $20M yes, but that had nothing to do with my thread then and still doesn't after the fact
    .
    Now you admit that your thread was designed to be a pizzing contest between proponents of his behavior and those who found it to be despicable. 

    When did I say that. I never said or meant anything like that. I never expected the thread to go hundreds of pages. I never expected law to hijack the thread in the name of bashing "pink hatters". It was a simple thread intended to correct those who were attempting to re-write Red Sox history with no Manny in it. I called Manny a jerk. I had no issue with those that found him "dispicable". My point was that sometimes "dispicable" people do good things. That doesn't jive with some people. They want their world to be all neat and cozy. Manny was a funny, playful child that fans accepted for years. He was a feared hitter that helped make Papi and others around him in the line-up better. He worked out hard before and after games. He was the best right-handed hitter of my generation. To try and lessen that fact just because he was or is a dispicable person, is not reality. The fact that he cheated and got caught afterwards makes me wonder if he cheated during the Sox years. It disgusted me to think that our rings could be preceieved to be tainted because of him. I started a thread after the news came out, and apologized for defending Manny the person, and that Manny the hitter was now in doubt, but the facts remain the same. We needed what Manny did in 2004 and 2007 to win the rings. We needed Papi as well. We needed VTek as well. We needed all 3 to win both rings.

    I knew that it wasn't about his skills as a batter.

    You weren't even there then. I started the thread, so I know what it was intended to be about. All of what it became was not my doing. Theere are still people today trying to minimize what Manny did as a hitter. Just read back a few posts. 

    2004 playoffs: (WS MVP)
    71 PAs  21 hits 9 BBs  (On base 30/71) 
    20 games:
    2B: 3
    HR: 2
    RBI: 11

    2007 playoffs:
    63 PAs  16 hits  16 BBs (On base 32/63)
    14 games:
    2B: 2
    HR: 2
    RBI:16

    Total:
    134 PAs in 34 games
    On base 62/134
    2B: 5
    HR: 4
    RBI: 27

    That's a pace of about 135 RBIs per 670 PAs.


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    90% of RSN at the time were here on the forum discussing how Manny's actions were despicable and that they were ashamed of those actions. He later apologized for such actions. 28 franchises in MLB did not want to touch him with a 20 ft. pole. His actions as a person during his last two months in a Red Sox uniform are indefensible. It is true that he was the best right handed hitter in a long time by far but the thread that Monnslav started and nourished every day evolved into a pizzing contest that was unnecessary. The thread should have isolated Manny, the hitter vs. Manny, the person. As a person Manny was a total failure. The thread fooled many posters who were unable to discern whether the thread was about Manny's character or about his skills as a batter. This happens all too often on this forum.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    90% of RSN at the time were here on the forum discussing how Manny's actions were despicable and that they were ashamed of those actions. He later apologized for such actions. 28 franchises in MLB did not want to touch him with a 20 ft. pole. 

    I think $45M had something to do with that.


    His actions as a person during his last two months in a Red Sox uniform are indefensible. It is true that he was the best right handed hitter in a long time by far but the thread that Monnslav started and nourished every day evolved into a pizzing contest that was unnecessary. The thread should have isolated Manny, the hitter vs. Manny, the person. As a person Manny was a total failure. The thread fooled many posters who were unable to discern whether the thread was about Manny's character or about his skills as a batter. This happens all too often on this forum.

    I don't recall you posting on the thread.  The thread was about Manny the hitter. We could not have won without his offense. The fact that many posters wanted to negate his input or lessen it to the point of obscurity because of his "dispicable" acts as a person was not my doing. 

    Those who hated Manny wanted to erase him as a hitter. The thread's author  attempted to bring this fact to light. It was a necessary thread. It was impossible to seperate the two, as I found out soon into the thread, because the very reason so many posters were re-writing history was because, in my opinion, they could not seperate the two. It was impossible for some posters to reconcile the fact that some dispicable people can do great things. The presence of law on almost all the pages added fuel to the fire. Blaming me for that is not fair.  Not being fair is something that happens all to often on this forum.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]90% of RSN at the time were here on the forum discussing how Manny's actions were despicable and that they were ashamed of those actions. He later apologized for such actions. 28 franchises in MLB did not want to touch him with a 20 ft. pole.  I think $45M had something to do with that. His actions as a person during his last two months in a Red Sox uniform are indefensible. It is true that he was the best right handed hitter in a long time by far but the thread that Monnslav started and nourished every day evolved into a pizzing contest that was unnecessary. The thread should have isolated Manny, the hitter vs. Manny, the person. As a person Manny was a total failure. The thread fooled many posters who were unable to discern whether the thread was about Manny's character or about his skills as a batter. This happens all too often on this forum. I don't recall you posting on the thread.  The thread was about Manny the hitter. We could not have won without his offense. The fact that many posters wanted to negate his input or lessen it to the point of obscurity because of his "dispicable" acts as a person was not my doing.  Those who hated Manny wanted to erase him as a hitter. The thread's author  attempted to bring this fact to light. It was a necessary thread. It was impossible to seperate the two, as I found out soon into the thread, because the very reason so many posters were re-writing history was because, in my opinion, they could not seperate the two. It was impossible for some posters to reconcile the fact that some dispicable people can do great things. The presence of law on almost all the pages added fuel to the fire. Blaming me for that is not fair.  Not being fair is something that happens all to often on this forum.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]The only person I've ever seen calling Manny despicable is Bill-806. I don't think I'd be calling him to be the GM of my MLB team.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]And another thing, this guy Theo is the poster boy for all the pink hats and that stupid Sweet Caroline BS, good riddance to ALL OF THAT WE DON"T NEED IT ANYMORE. US DIE HARDS will be fans aftar all of that is over.
    Posted by BostonIrishGuy[/QUOTE]

    I agree about Caroline. Time to go. How many classic rock ANTHEMS does "Boston" have? If you have to play something, play something by them. And BTW, get rid of that stupid "Dirty Water" song they play at the end. Lame, lame, lame.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    I agree... we need some new tunes.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-7232360

    I would even go for some Ragtime, as in Scott Joplin. I am all for throwback.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    they should just stick with early 1900's baseball classic's.  Who in the heck wants to listen to Boston "More than a feeling" every game? Blah. Same for "Caroline" blah.

    Take me out to the ballgame!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Like what Burr?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOUKILLUS20. Show YOUKILLUS20's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

     Funny that yesterday I changed my avatar to Neil Diamond, and you guys are talking about dumping Sweet Caroline. You gotta admit, Diamond's a great name for a singer who gets his best exposure at a baseball field.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Spartacus2011. Show Spartacus2011's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]And really, it's hard to give Manny all the credit anyway.  2007 was the worst year of his career at the time, yet the Sox won it all.  However, they did not win it all during several seasons when he as far more productive.  So how could it all be Manny?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Manny got the Red Sox past the Anaheim Angels with the monster home run walkoff.

    No way the Sox get to the WS without Manny in 2007 or 2004.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Youk is bumping up threads from three weeks ago?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Realistically, neither Theo nor we fans built to Red Sox.  Dan Duquette acquired a number of key players with the Varitek and Lowe trade acquisition for Heathcliff Slocumb, the trade acquisition of Pedro Martinez and the signing of Johnny Damon and Manny Ramirez.  Certainly Theo tweaked the Red Sox with players like Ortiz, Millar, Schilling, Foulke, Mueller, Bellhorn etc. but the nucleus was there Thanks to Dan. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    " Certainly Theo tweaked the Red Sox with players like Ortiz, Millar, Schilling, Foulke, Mueller, Bellhorn etc"

    Umm he had the stones to trade the face of the franchise in the middle of the season. As I recall we won a ring that year. Theo made a lot of dumb moves to, and Duquette also gets his due, but to reduce Theo's contributions to tweaks means simply ignoring facts.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]Realistically, neither Theo nor we fans built to Red Sox.  Dan Duquette acquired a number of key players with the Varitek and Lowe trade acquisition for Heathcliff Slocumb, the trade acquisition of Pedro Martinez and the signing of Johnny Damon and Manny Ramirez.  Certainly Theo tweaked the Red Sox with players like Ortiz, Millar, Schilling, Foulke, Mueller, Bellhorn etc. but the nucleus was there Thanks to Dan. 
    Posted by rgmfick[/QUOTE]

    LOL those are some 'tweaks' alright, Ortiz, Schilling & Foulke especially.  When you put half the team in place you have really tweaked it.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OhEFFU. Show OhEFFU's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : How much "respect" did Theo Epstein show the fans by gutting, tinkering with and ultimately destroying a World Series championship baseball team not once but TWICE? How much respect did Theo Epstein show Red Sox fans when he choked on the Roy Halladay deal TWICE because he couldn't let go of Buchholz? How much respect did Theo show Red Sox fans wasting roster spots on Wake and Varitek for YEARS? Shall I continue? What Theo should have written only needed two words: I'm Sorry.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    How did he destroy a WS team twice, Einstein, unless he built them and then rebuilt them?  And after the years of deals (some good and some bad, as would happen with anyone, just look around the league) and we win twice, that's what you have to say?  And oh, yeah, if he makes a deal and later you with the benefit of hindsight you think it was a bad move, you're going to somehow say that this showed a lack of 'respect?'  Huh?  Really? 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did. : How did he destroy a WS team twice, Einstein, unless he built them and then rebuilt them?  And after the years of deals (some good and some bad, as would happen with anyone, just look around the league) and we win twice, that's what you have to say?  And oh, yeah, if he makes a deal and later you with the benefit of hindsight you think it was a bad move, you're going to somehow say that this showed a lack of 'respect?'  Huh?  Really? 
    Posted by OhEFFU[/QUOTE]Save your breath, Law (ourman) is long gone.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Did Theo ever make the claim that HE was mainly responsible for putting together the 2004 Red Sox. My guess is that he would say that the success of that team should be shared by Duquette, the 2004 FO, the scouts, coaches, players, and much luck in the ALCS. Why the FETISH to place all of the credit on one person?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    2 things...

    The Cars LETS GO...

    and I did not build anything in regard to the Sox....fans are fans, GM's have that responsibility, not I...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzldLJcorbo

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]they should just stick with early 1900's baseball classic's.  Who in the heck wants to listen to Boston "More than a feeling" every game? Blah. Same for "Caroline" blah. Take me out to the ballgame!
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    'Cept Boston has about two dozen awesome songs you could choose from. Take me out to the all game? I'm old school, but not THAT ol school. I'll pass.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    In Response to Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.:
    [QUOTE]2 things... The Cars LETS GO... and I did not build anything in regard to the Sox....fans are fans, GM's have that responsibility, not I...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhzrQzCdSH8

    You call this music?
    Could a crowd sing to this garbage?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Figment. Show Figment's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    Actually the Red Sox team that won the world series was built by Duquette.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Theo Thinks He Built The Boston Red Sox. Wrong, The Fans Did.

    It will be nice when the Sox hire a new manager, and both he and the GM can start becoming the topic of conversation instead of Theo.  Too much living in the past - Theo is gone and the board still wants to trash him.  So far he has been blamed on this board for everything except the two WS rings.
     

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