There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    For once I agree with you.

    I also say Big mouth BV and far too many injuries added to it.

    However if every pitcher Beckett, Bard, Lester, Bucholz, etc... had pitched just to their averages it would have been totally different this year.

    I will add making that trade was dumb (the season was already shot). I know Beckett was supposed to be a cancer  and CC was not worth it supposedly.

    Still think it was dumb.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You're on the right track, but ...
     --- I think it's a bit overstated to say a decent pitching coach would have fixed all the problems.

    --- and you can overlook the injuries to the offense early in the year and the inconsistent offense. Take Lester and Beckett.

    First Lester: In his first 17 starts, take out his two worst starts -- put him at 0-2 -- and in his other 15 starts, his ERA 3.53 (give or take). He very easily could have been 8-4 in those starts (8-6 overall) but got not offensive support.

    Beckett: In his first 13 starts, take out his two worst starts -- put him at 0-2 -- and in his other 11 starts, his ERA was 2.53 (give or take). He very easily could have been 7-2 in those starts, 7-4 overall.

    My internet is slow right now so I'm not going to look it up to see exactly what their combined record was at that point but I know it was considerably under .500. Yet if the offense gave them decent support, they could have combined for 15-10 at that point and the season could have had a much different look at that point.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    I do not think the best pitching coach in the history of MLB could have turned our 5+ starter ERA into 4.00 or lower, which is what it would have taken to make us contenders this year.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    So a good pitching coach was going to limit the injuries to the outfielders on this team? 

     

    The Sox did go through like 17 outfielders this year.  How many of them were Bob McClure's fault?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    I rather just forget about this season. As a whole it was awful. Injuries, bad pitching, not much timely hitting and by the end a very exhausted bullpen, minus bailey. But even he just returned from a season long injury and wasnt 100%.

    The trade in August was brilliant...It was the start of changing the culture back to what it once was here.

    The team has plenty of talent. With better leadership from the manager, HIS OWN coaching staff, letting the GM be a GM and ownership paying attention to their jobs, things can and will be better. When its completely disfunctional from the top, its only going to filter down to that clubhouse. And it did...

    After a very humbling year for this team, Im looking forward to the many much needed changes throughout this organization.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    There was very little right about this team starting with BenC and BV.

    The best thing BC did was make the Dodger Trade--it was brilliant.

    If the Sox don't sell, BenC will be back--ok. He will get to name a manager who will get to name his staff ??..!!

    If he trades for JF and gives up a  top prospect he should be fired on the spot!!!!!!!!! That would tell me he learned very little in 2012.

    Give up on Felix before the off season trade talks begin, do not pursue Josh Hamilton or Zach G. Mike Napoli and LaRoche would be two good FA pickups.

    Look at Anibal, Marcum, and other FA pitchers that are affordable. Trade Ells to the D'Backs for two years of Chris Young, the OF'der--do not trade for Justin Upton. Kick the tires on BJ Upton. 

    Trade for Erik Aybar or Elvis Andrus they may be good SS candidates.

    Perhaps somewhat of a blockbuster trade with the Indians---Pedroia, Lavarnway and Doubie for Masterson, Santana, Kipner and Perez; could be expanded to include Brantley or Shoo for Ells. 

     

     

     

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    The team was an 86-76 team that BV and injuries and then the trade turned into an all-time farce. It's a combination of bad managing, bad pitching and then overuse of young players who weren't ready for MLB pitching. Easily the worst Sox team I've seen since I was a child. There were plenty things wrong with this team, and unfortunately, Gonzalez didn't seem to have much influence in that clubhouse or any clubhouse. I love AGON and he should still be a Sox, but he's got some sort of hex on him that turns the teams he plays for into under-achievers or non-playoff squads. Sad.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    The team's offense was horrendous, the inability to just create runs other than by home runs. That was as disgusting as the bad SPs.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Frank N Stein. Show Frank N Stein's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Maybe Lester and Beckett had off years. But , we haven't really seen a good year from Beckett since 2007. Maybe Beckett is just toast and we are lucky to be rid of him. The guy is very arrogant for a 6 inning, middle of the rotation pitcher. he still thinks he's an ace. I didn't think they had a chance in the world of moving him this year. Just glad I am not a Dodgers fan. But, that being said, I agree with the OP that starting pitching was the main stumbling block, not sure I blame the pitching coach...because it started in 2011 September....McLure wasn't here yet.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    For once I agree with you.

    I also say Big mouth BV and far too many injuries added to it.

    However if every pitcher Beckett, Bard, Lester, Bucholz, etc... had pitched just to their averages it would have been totally different this year.

    I will add making that trade was dumb (the season was already shot). I know Beckett was supposed to be a cancer  and CC was not worth it supposedly.

    Still think it was dumb.

    [/QUOTE]
    You agree with him, BUT, it's also the manager and the injuries. So you aren't agreeing with him. And I love your comment "if every pitcher had pitched just to their averages, it would have been totally different". That's a lot of ifs when you include the entire staff. You could almost say that for every team.

    And it wasn't JUST the pitching. The lineup stunk.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do not think the best pitching coach in the history of MLB could have turned our 5+ starter ERA into 4.00 or lower, which is what it would have taken to make us contenders this year.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thank you Moon. Knock some commen sense into the knucklehead who started this thread.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    Separating out the road hitting statistics, the Red Sox were last in the league in OPS, wRC* and wRC+ away from home:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=16&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=8,d

    In home hitting statistics, the Sox were fifth in the league in OPS, third in wRC and tied for fifth in wRC+.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=15&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=15,d

    * http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'll give you a half-thumbs up.  The SPs were an epic fail, but as others mentioned, some of it might be talent related.  We could've probably used someone for lester.  No one knows how Becektt is motivated.  Buchholz might've just needed 'x' amount of starts to get over his injury.  Bard it's quite possible that someone else might've clicked with him.

    I'm not sure about Farrell, but at a minimum, he knows the pitchers.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    You agree with him, BUT, it's also the manager and the injuries. So you aren't agreeing with him. And I love your comment "if every pitcher had pitched just to their averages, it would have been totally different". That's a lot of ifs when you include the entire staff. You could almost say that for every team.

    And it wasn't JUST the pitching. The lineup stunk.

    TX led the league with 4.99 RPG.

    Until Papi got hurt, we were averaging 5.00 RPG, good enough to lead the league in scoring.  If our lineup was-

    Ells

    Pedey

    Gonzo

    Papi

    Youk/WMB

    Ross

    CC

    Salty

    Aviles

    for 150 games, we have led the league in scoring by a healthy margin.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to ADG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do not think the best pitching coach in the history of MLB could have turned our 5+ starter ERA into 4.00 or lower, which is what it would have taken to make us contenders this year.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thank you Moon. Knock some commen sense into the knucklehead who started this thread.

    [/QUOTE]


    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox.  WE STUNK!!!!  Lousy starting pitching, inconsistent bullpen, injuries up the gazoo, an inept manager and a GM who just failed last winter to land pitchers like Kuroda or Jackson among others.  And that's just for starters.  Even our hitting took a hike.  We need a complete housecleaning this winter and it is u p to Cherington to get this done.  The only problem I have there is that I wonder if he has the ability and cajones to do the job required of him.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That a decent pitching coach wouldn't have fixed.

    It was the SP that failed this team on the field, nothing more.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You're on the right track, but ...
     --- I think it's a bit overstated to say a decent pitching coach would have fixed all the problems.

    --- and you can overlook the injuries to the offense early in the year and the inconsistent offense. Take Lester and Beckett.

    First Lester: In his first 17 starts, take out his two worst starts -- put him at 0-2 -- and in his other 15 starts, his ERA 3.53 (give or take). He very easily could have been 8-4 in those starts (8-6 overall) but got not offensive support.

    Beckett: In his first 13 starts, take out his two worst starts -- put him at 0-2 -- and in his other 11 starts, his ERA was 2.53 (give or take). He very easily could have been 7-2 in those starts, 7-4 overall.

    My internet is slow right now so I'm not going to look it up to see exactly what their combined record was at that point but I know it was considerably under .500. Yet if the offense gave them decent support, they could have combined for 15-10 at that point and the season could have had a much different look at that point.

    [/QUOTE]

    But Roy, look at the Nats. Their offense didn't didn't show up for the first two months, yet they were able to compete because their SP kept them in games

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You agree with him, BUT, it's also the manager and the injuries. So you aren't agreeing with him. And I love your comment "if every pitcher had pitched just to their averages, it would have been totally different". That's a lot of ifs when you include the entire staff. You could almost say that for every team.

    And it wasn't JUST the pitching. The lineup stunk.

    TX led the league with 4.99 RPG.

    Until Papi got hurt, we were averaging 5.00 RPG, good enough to lead the league in scoring.  If our lineup was-

    Ells

    Pedey

    Gonzo

    Papi

    Youk/WMB

    Ross

    CC

    Salty

    Aviles

    for 150 games, we have led the league in scoring by a healthy margin.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's a big IF.  Go through every team.

    1. If Mike Trout was on the Angels all year.

    2. If Colby Lewis didn't get hurt

    3. If the Yankees didn't have injuries

    4. If Markakis didn't get hurt.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You agree with him, BUT, it's also the manager and the injuries. So you aren't agreeing with him. And I love your comment "if every pitcher had pitched just to their averages, it would have been totally different". That's a lot of ifs when you include the entire staff. You could almost say that for every team.

    And it wasn't JUST the pitching. The lineup stunk.

    TX led the league with 4.99 RPG.

    Until Papi got hurt, we were averaging 5.00 RPG, good enough to lead the league in scoring.  If our lineup was-

    Ells

    Pedey

    Gonzo

    Papi

    Youk/WMB

    Ross

    CC

    Salty

    Aviles

    for 150 games, we have led the league in scoring by a healthy margin.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's a big IF.  Go through every team.

    1. If Mike Trout was on the Angels all year.

    2. If Colby Lewis didn't get hurt

    3. If the Yankees didn't have injuries

    4. If Markakis didn't get hurt.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ADG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do not think the best pitching coach in the history of MLB could have turned our 5+ starter ERA into 4.00 or lower, which is what it would have taken to make us contenders this year.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thank you Moon. Knock some commen sense into the knucklehead who started this thread.

    [/QUOTE]


    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox.  WE STUNK!!!!  Lousy starting pitching, inconsistent bullpen, injuries up the gazoo, an inept manager and a GM who just failed last winter to land pitchers like Kuroda or Jackson among others.  And that's just for starters.  Even our hitting took a hike.  We need a complete housecleaning this winter and it is u p to Cherington to get this done.  The only problem I have there is that I wonder if he has the ability and cajones to do the job required of him.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks seabeach. The pollyannas think I'm a troll because I'm critical. All the pollyannas thought the Sox had a shot earlier. I remember kimsaythis after the Sox left Cleveland with a 2-2 split, saying they had momentum. They got blasted next in Baltimore and then New York. By the way, where is that pink hat?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    In response to ADG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You agree with him, BUT, it's also the manager and the injuries. So you aren't agreeing with him. And I love your comment "if every pitcher had pitched just to their averages, it would have been totally different". That's a lot of ifs when you include the entire staff. You could almost say that for every team.

    And it wasn't JUST the pitching. The lineup stunk.

    TX led the league with 4.99 RPG.

    Until Papi got hurt, we were averaging 5.00 RPG, good enough to lead the league in scoring.  If our lineup was-

    Ells

    Pedey

    Gonzo

    Papi

    Youk/WMB

    Ross

    CC

    Salty

    Aviles

    for 150 games, we have led the league in scoring by a healthy margin.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's a big IF.  Go through every team.

    1. If Mike Trout was on the Angels all year.

    2. If Colby Lewis didn't get hurt

    3. If the Yankees didn't have injuries

    4. If Markakis didn't get hurt.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    None of that has any bearing on our offense.

    For example, Trout played 139 games.  If you gave the LAA another 23 Trout games, and we got another 430 games from Gonzo, Pedey, Aviles, Youk/WMB, CC, Ellsbury, Ross and Papi, we'd have outscored them by 100 runs easily.

    How many offensive games did those teams lose?  The NYY about 220, the O's about 50-60, LA about 100, the RS more than all those three combined, and Colby Lewis is really more like a pitcher, even if he did hit .500.

    Nobody guarantees anything, but if not for injuries last year, we'd have led the league in scoring.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: There was nothing wrong with the 2012 Sox

    The pollyannas on this board must think that some of the more critical posters enjoy tearing into or team.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, but the fact is there was PLENTY wrong with the 2012 Red Sox

    Everyone in here has a pretty good grasp of what went wrong, from what I can see.  You're just not reading what they are posting.

    Ike and Jim led in with the pitching, which everyone pretty much agreed with.  Roy mentioned the lack of consistency on offense.  Moon agreed on the pitching, Notin mentioned us using 17 different OFs.  You're not seeing anything different than anyone else in here.

     

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