Vindication

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Vindication

    This is not about any "I told you so", but simply about the legitimacy of a consistent perspective. Many people on this Board were saying that it was time for a change of manager and got slammed by Tito supporters. Now even Tito admits, "it was just time" [for a change], so are you Tito supporters convinced yet? Oh, and BTW, all of you who said Tito would be unemployed for all of a day because he will be in such demand, NOT.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Vindication

    BOTH TITO AND THEO HAVE OUTLIVED THEIR USEFULNESS IN
    BOSTON. THEO BOUGHT LACKEY AND CRAWFORD. FOR THAT
    REASON ALONE, HE SHOULD LEAVE. ALSO...HE FAILED TO SIGN
    OR HELP THE FARM SYSTEM DEVELOP A STRONG RH BAT. SINCE
    LOWELL, ONLY PEDEY REPRESENTED A THREAT FROM THE RH
    SIDE. BOSTON IS TOO LEFTY HEAVY IN THE OFFENSE. MANNY
    GAVE US RESPECT FROM THE RH SIDE. YOUK IS FADING, AND
    HE GAVE US HIS BEST YEARS. UNLESS WE GET A RH BAT, WHICH
    SHOULD BE A PRIORITY NOW, WE WILL LANGUISH IN THIRD
    PLACE BEHIND THE RAYS....AN EMBARRASSMENT FOR A
    FRANCHISE WITH OUR SIZE PAYROLL !!


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Vindication

    1st, he's employed by Fox.  2nd, he'll be employed by the start of next season if that's what he wants to do.  3rd, He said that it's time for a change.  Duh?  They went 7-20 in September.  There clearly needed to be a change.  But maybe, just maybe he was the needed change because he disagreed with how the team had been put together.  If you're the manager and they saddle you with players that you don't think are right, and then you prove out to be correct, would you be staying.

    Even the greatest manager in the world wouldn't have been able to prevent the September collapse.  To be a champion, you have to have players that want to be champions - all of them have to feel that way.  But if you've got important members of the team that don't have that burning desire to succeed, then no manager is going to succeed.

    The players have to want it.  The manager's role is to show them how to achieve it.  But if the players don't want it, then the manager won't be successful.

    Tito had led this team to 2 WS in the past so clearly he was capable.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Vindication:
    [QUOTE]This is not about any "I told you so", but simply about the legitimacy of a consistent perspective. Many people on this Board were saying that it was time for a change of manager and got slammed by Tito supporters. Now even Tito admits, "it was just time" [for a change], so are you Tito supporters convinced yet? Oh, and BTW, all of you who said Tito would be unemployed for all of a day because he will be in such demand, NOT.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    Sorry but the Tito bashers did not present this situation as a "Time for a Change" proposal...they second guessed every move the manager made because, frankly, they just didn't like him.

    Francona supporters usually fought the battle of trying to explain to the pigheaded that it was easy to second guess managerial decisions and that every manager in the game makes mistakes.

    In any event, it was "time" for Tito to leave because he did not have a contract extension from ownership and he saw the writing on the wall, so he moved on.

    So technically, if you want to support your argument, Sox ownership felt it was time for a change, but there is no vindication for Tito bashers who just wanted him out of here from the beginning.

    To be honest, I can not recall one topic that presented the argument that Tito should be fired because it was time for a change...WHY?? because nobody knew that it was that time until the team collapsed in September.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Vindication

    Oh, and BTW, all of you who said Tito would be unemployed for all of a day because he will be in such demand, NOT.

    FAIL

    And BTW your OP most certainly is a blatant self-aggrandizing.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Vindication

    Vindication for what? So the arm chair Monday morning quarterbacks, that'll be taking the same shots at the the next guy who fails to win 162 games and then sweep his way to a WS? Can say see I told you so?

    Was it Francona's fault that Papelbon blew the final game of the season? Was it his fault that our best two starters went 1-9 in September...Was it his fault that we never truly bolstered our starting rotation after losing 2/5th of the opening day starting five...hardly

    Was he responsible for the September collapse? I find that hard to believe...was it time for a change...obviously
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: Vindication

    Lets not forget Bard blowing those critical games.  And he is supposed to replace Paps?  LOL

    All this talk about weight gain, and mismanagement, and drinking in the clubhouse, and disconnect with the owners ... but if Bard just held 2 more of those NINE GAMES HE BLEW we would have been in the playoffs.

    Doesn't look like Bard drinks to me.  He didn't put on weight.  Still pitches near 100 mph.  He is in great shape.  Maybe the Tito lynch mobs are just getting carried away? 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Vindication

    I love the told you so comments by so many...like you're relishing the Sox failures. I can't say the Sox won't come back and win a WS title some day, but my feeling is that there is a very distinct probability that the Sox next manager will get crucified by a good portion of this board and some will even think back at all of this and say, "gee, Tito seemed to have the players backs, and we won" Let me tell you this, I've seen Joe Kerrigan, I've seen Jimy Williams, and Butch Hobson, and it's not pretty. It can get very ugly, very fast. Just a cautionary tale for you all. Good managers are hard to find. Why do you think the Angels love Scioscia, they know they are getting a guy who is all-in, and I think Tito is/was all-in. He didn't quit on the Sox, but Theo's overpriced acquisitions sure seem like they did.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Vindication

      Food for thought... 12 other teams didn't have Tito as their manager, many of them with less talent and far less resources, yet their Manager found a way to make the playoffs these past two seasons, 4 of them did it twice !!
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]Vindication for what? So the arm chair Monday morning quarterbacks, that'll be taking the same shots at the the next guy who fails to win 162 games and then sweep his way to a WS? Can say see I told you so? Was it Francona's fault that Papelbon blew the final game of the season? Was it his fault that our best two starters went 1-9 in September...Was it his fault that we never truly bolstered our starting rotation after losing 2/5th of the opening day starting five...hardly Was he responsible for the September collapse? I find that hard to believe...was it time for a change...obviously
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    LOOK....  I love Tito, but YES!  It is, in large part, his fault.  As he said, "I could not reach many of the guys!"  Whatever the reason, it still remains that Tito lost control!  THIS FACT, in his own words, is not mutually exclusive of PLENTY OF BLAME on the players, MGMT, the FO, & ownership.  The clubhouse & what happens between the lines & on the game time bench?  That's Tito!  HE MUST set the tone!

    The problems were PAINFULLY OBVIOUS as far back as Spring Training.  This is not an I Told You So, but I loudly expressed my feelings that our guys were not ready to play all through ST!  I continued to say so for the first month of the season.  The only reason for such a historically aweful start & finish is leadership!  Tito was the main person responsible for that TEAM LEADERSHIP.   THIS TEAM did not need the laissez faire leadership that Tito was so used to giving.  HE is responsible for NOT MAKING A CHANGE!  HE fell asleep at the switch, & left the inmates to run the asylum!!!  This in NO WAY excuses the players who did not step up!!!!!  It does not excuse the FO or ownership!!!!!!  BUT....  It in no way excuses Tito from a HUGE PART of the blame!  Anybody who uses the player problems that keep trickling out as AN EXCUSE to divert any blame from Tito, are simply kidding themselves!

    Where do we go from here????

    *  Ownership must DEMAND a change in organizational culture!
    *  No more laissez faire management.
    *  They must find a STRONG LEADER to manage this team, who demands professionalism from his players.  Demands that players train hard & keep to a strong work ethic throughout the season.  OR THEY SIT!
    *  The 2004 idiots were not special because they were idiots!  It's because they were a hard working, fun loving bunch, who came together as a TEAM!  They had fun & stayed loose, but they worked hard to have eachother's backs!  They grinded out EVERY SINGLE AT BAT.... BECAUSE THEY WERE PREPARED TO DO SO!  They did it for eachother!
    *  Some players simply MUST GO!  Lackey is ONE obvious choice!  There are others!
    *  The much vaunted Pitcher Training & Strengthening program must be reexamined!
    *  Other position players who come to camp out of shape should be sanctioned!

    Out of time.......  This is just the start of a MUST DO LIST!

    STOP WITH THE BLAME SHIFTING!  Somebody let the inmates run the asylum???

    WHO?????

    What would happen if a teacher left their classroom for hours at a time?????  What would happen to the classroom if the teacher had ZERO RULES???????
    Even the good kids would become disillusioned!  They would give up on the classroom!  They would try their best to do their best on THEIR WORK, but even they would lose focus!  THIS is what happened!!!


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Vindication:
    [QUOTE]This is not about any "I told you so", but simply about the legitimacy of a consistent perspective. Many people on this Board were saying that it was time for a change of manager and got slammed by Tito supporters. Now even Tito admits, "it was just time" [for a change], so are you Tito supporters convinced yet? Oh, and BTW, all of you who said Tito would be unemployed for all of a day because he will be in such demand, NOT.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]
    I'm sorry, and you are ...?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]Vindication for what? So the arm chair Monday morning quarterbacks, that'll be taking the same shots at the the next guy who fails to win 162 games and then sweep his way to a WS? Can say see I told you so? Was it Francona's fault that Papelbon blew the final game of the season? Was it his fault that our best two starters went 1-9 in September...Was it his fault that we never truly bolstered our starting rotation after losing 2/5th of the opening day starting five...hardly Was he responsible for the September collapse? I find that hard to believe...was it time for a change...obviously
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    He was responsibile and accountable for making sure the team worked together. He obviously lost control of his players and for that he loses his job.
    Frankly, I believe that Epstein had too much say-so in the day to day operations of the team, and that Francona did what he was told to do.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]  Food for thought... 12 other teams didn't have Tito as their manager, many of them with less talent and far less resources, yet their Manager found a way to make the playoffs these past two seasons, 4 of them did it twice !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL[/QUOTE]

    The 4 being the Yankees, Phillies, Rangers and Rays.  The first 3 of which are hardly lacking in talent or resources.  The Rays certainly have less resources but you could make a case that their pitching talent was better than ours.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Vindication

     I don't believe anybody has ever said that Tito was "Told What to Do" in Philly and remind me again how that worked out for the "Player's Manager" back then ?? As for the new "ALL IN" Cliche... If he had spent half the effort, with the problems in the clubhouse, as he did playing with his gum maybe we wouldn't be talking about this today !!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vindication : The 4 being the Yankees, Phillies, Rangers and Rays.  The first 3 of which are hardly lacking in talent or resources.  The Rays certainly have less resources but you could make a case that their pitching talent was better than ours.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


     So how is their pitching talent working out for them today ?? So from the position you're taking I'm guessing you're ok with fiinishing third ?? It's more important the Sox retain Tito then ever getting to the post season again ?? I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say no matter who the Sox Hire as Manager they will be in the Post Season next year and possibly win it all to boot !!
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: Vindication

    Or maybe Paps doesn't cough up the lead in that last fatal game if he wasn't  distracted by all the pitchers beer-belching in the clubhouse, and Tito's incessant gum snapping.  Damn distractions cost us the season.  Fire everybody. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vindication :  So how is their pitching talent working out for them today ?? So from the position you're taking I'm guessing you're ok with fiinishing third ?? It's more important the Sox retain Tito then ever getting to the post season again ?? I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say no matter who the Sox Hire as Manager they will be in the Post Season next year and possibly win it all to boot !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL[/QUOTE]

    You're reading too much into what I said.  I'm not OK with finishing third two years in a row.  But there were problems with the construction of the team and the performance of the pitching staff that I think Tito had nothing to do with.


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Vindication

     The Ultimate "Yes Man" Should have little problem landing a job, even in this economy, if there is another GM out there that wants to secretly (Although the cat is kinda out of the bag on that one) run a team. I can't wait for the insightful comments he'll have during the broadcasts. You know things like it will be a good time for a hit and run, or maybe even, dare I say it out loud, a squeeze play !! LOL
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Vindication

    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vindication : You're reading too much into what I said.  I'm not OK with finishing third two years in a row.  But there were problems with the construction of the team and the performance of the pitching staff that I think Tito had nothing to do with.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

     Yea, the problems with the construction of this team was they had to many All Stars and not enough players I guess. Not enough "Leaders". The team went into coast mode early in Sept. and couldn't recover. Tito had nothing to do with that I suppose, even though Tito himself said as much. Funny how this guy's career went in Boston... Started with an epic rise and ended with an epic fall !! Tito has always reminded me of the Character, Chance, Peter Sellers played in the Movie "Being There" !! Google it !!
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Vindication

    So...are you predicting that Tito will not have manager's job next season?...if so...can I post a "vindication" thread when he is hired by a team before next season?

    No I am not. I am simply saying that there were a lot of people in the media and on this Board who claimed it was a huge mistake to let Tito go and who claimed he would be hired right away, since he is such a great manager, and I am merely pointing out that they were wrong. (News flash, getting hired by Fox is not a manager's job, but no one could be worse than McCarver, so that's a plus anyway.) I hope he does get another job, just glad it won't be with the Sox.
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from PetesCall. Show PetesCall's posts

    Re: Vindication

    Wake-up pole6, Ozzie was TRADED to the Marlins before the season ended. Sure...Coma will get a job...didn't the Dodgers hire Grady "too Little too late" ? But Coma's now damaged goods. Don't blame others for your blind faith in Coma. He RAN the team day-to-day. His fate was sealed once the losing hit was stroked in Baltimore. We who LOVE the Sox, and NOT just the MANAGER have been talking about the breakdown in structure that has been infesting this team all year. Coma delivered the worst record in Major League history in September. Wake pitched every 5th or 6th start for 3 months to get his 200th win. Wake-up. The same list of Kool-Aid "Coma-Heads" still rush to his rescue even if he and our players have disgraced and embarassed us. WAKE-UP!


    In Response to Re: Vindication:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vindication : ummmm...seriously? so the fact he has not been offered a managing job less than a week after he left the Red Sox proves he is not in demand? Wow...you have followed baseball before correct? You do understand the basic timetable for when things are done correct? Just checking
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]
     

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