What about Salty?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sorry, but his defense is not good. You dont need 250PA's to tell how someones defense is. He is slow and lumbering behind the plate. He doesnt slide over to block balls. He tries to backhand and olay them. He was still doing it in the games he played this year. Like I said, IMHO, he doesnt look natural back there. It lookes forced. If the Sox liked what they saw, they would have played him more when Ross went down.

    Give him a 1b mit.
     

    [/QUOTE]

    Give him a DH mitt...LOL

    [/QUOTE]


    Lol...that too!!!! I still think if he concentrated on that hitting more than this useless attempt at being a ft MLB catcher, his bat would play pretty goodin Fenway.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd still project slightly better offense from a healthy McCann over a healthy Salty in 2014, but it wouldn't be by enough to warrant almost double the contract and years.

     




    Not to mention the draft pick.

     

    McCann is a better catcher, much better than Salty defensively IMO, but in terms of value, Salty would be the better deal.  The fact that he knows the pitching staff is another pro to re-signing Salty.

     




    With respect. I fully disagree that McCann is much better than Salty defensively..

    Now, we do agree that Salty is clearly the better value and after basically saying hed take less to come back here, he should be resigned.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    Concerns about Salty that I have: super high babip last year and concerns about his work ethic in the press last offseason.    Ben surprised many in trading Iglesias, character seems big with Ben and Iglesias is a spoiled brat.  Maybe Ben has issues with Salty's work to improve defensively?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

     

    Farrell on Salty...

    “Absolutely he has a future here. We’re engaging with him and I know [Red Sox GM Ben Cherington] has talked to his agent frequently here, not just as free agent season has opened up but throughout the course of the remainder of the year and through the postseason,” said Farrell

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    4 Clutch stats I like about Salty

    At end of June he was batting .232 with 2 outs and RISP, finished the year at .283
    Tie game hits .322
    Within 1 run hits .293
    Within 2 Runs  .290

    He improved his Clutch hitting tremedously.
    OK, maybe not in Post Season, but during the year, this was huge.
    I was always ranking on him for his Clutch hitting.

    Clutch hitting is how we won the WS.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    There's really only a handful of guys worth having over Salty. All would cost too much. He is one of the most UNDERrated players on the team, maybe baseball. He's a Top 10 catcher, and all people do is complain about him! Ok, not all people. Drew isn't a Top 10 shortstop. Napoli probably isn't a Top 10 1B.

    And if he's not Top 10, providing ten names should be easy. People seem to overrate what the position is in 2013.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This site has Salty saving 10 runs per 120 games with his pitch-framing.

    It shows McCann with 4 runs saved per 120 games.

    It shows Salty is equal to Ross and better than Y Molina in this area...

     

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe so Moon, but that doesn't pass the "sniff test". Watching Salty and Ross tells me that Salty is nowhere near as good as Ross is at framing pitches.

    [/QUOTE]

    I saw just the opposite.

    The one thing I have always thought he was good at was framing pitches.

    He greatly improved his blocking WPs and minimizing PBs.

    He greatly improved his CERA and related skills with most pitchers.

    He still stinks at throwing.

    McCann is not better on defense, and he will have to go through a learning curve with our pitchers.

    It's not worth the extra money and extra years.

    We shouldn't sign any catcher to more than 2-3 years.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Concerns about Salty that I have: super high babip last year and concerns about his work ethic in the press last offseason.    Ben surprised many in trading Iglesias, character seems big with Ben and Iglesias is a spoiled brat.  Maybe Ben has issues with Salty's work to improve defensively?

    [/QUOTE]

    Part of Salty's high BAbip has to do with his extra 21 line drives hit this year. That's about the difference in hits from 2012 to 2013 (per 448 PAs). 

    His BB% went up as well.

     

    I doubt he is back, if they benched him for Ross when it counted.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    4 Clutch stats I like about Salty

    At end of June he was batting .232 with 2 outs and RISP, finished the year at .283
    Tie game hits .322
    Within 1 run hits .293
    Within 2 Runs  .290

    He improved his Clutch hitting tremedously.
    OK, maybe not in Post Season, but during the year, this was huge.
    I was always ranking on him for his Clutch hitting.

    Clutch hitting is how we won the WS.



    He was also one of our top "Late & Close" hitters in 2012.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There's really only a handful of guys worth having over Salty. All would cost too much. He is one of the most UNDERrated players on the team, maybe baseball. He's a Top 10 catcher, and all people do is complain about him! Ok, not all people. Drew isn't a Top 10 shortstop. Napoli probably isn't a Top 10 1B.

    And if he's not Top 10, providing ten names should be easy. People seem to overrate what the position is in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Napoli was 7th in 1B WAR (out of 26 1Bmen with 450 PAs).

    Drew was 6th in SS WAR (out of 18 SSs with 450 PAs).

    Salty was 9th out of 15 catchers with 450+ PAs. (9 out of 24 with 350+)

     

    I've been a big Salty supporter since early 2012, but Catchers I'd rather have:

    (assuming contracts are equal)

    Y Molina

    Mauer

    Posey

    Santana

    Lucroy

    J Castro

    Wieters

    Rosario

    Navarro

    McCann

    There may be some younger catchers I don't know much about, but Salty is close to being top 10.

     

    Castro

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    4 Clutch stats I like about Salty

    At end of June he was batting .232 with 2 outs and RISP, finished the year at .283
    Tie game hits .322
    Within 1 run hits .293
    Within 2 Runs  .290

    He improved his Clutch hitting tremedously.
    OK, maybe not in Post Season, but during the year, this was huge.
    I was always ranking on him for his Clutch hitting.

    Clutch hitting is how we won the WS.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He was also one of our top "Late & Close" hitters in 2012.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    In 2012 we were a last place team, real clutch.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    4 Clutch stats I like about Salty

    At end of June he was batting .232 with 2 outs and RISP, finished the year at .283
    Tie game hits .322
    Within 1 run hits .293
    Within 2 Runs  .290

    He improved his Clutch hitting tremedously.
    OK, maybe not in Post Season, but during the year, this was huge.
    I was always ranking on him for his Clutch hitting.

    Clutch hitting is how we won the WS.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He was also one of our top "Late & Close" hitters in 2012.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    In 2012 we were a last place team, real clutch.

    [/QUOTE]

    When the game was on the line, Salty did better than all but 2-3 of his teammates last year. No, it's not saying much, but for people who bash Salty for not being clutch, yet give worse players more slack is something I'm going to point out.

    He started off slow this year in that area, but improved greatly as the games meant more.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There's really only a handful of guys worth having over Salty. All would cost too much. He is one of the most UNDERrated players on the team, maybe baseball. He's a Top 10 catcher, and all people do is complain about him! Ok, not all people. Drew isn't a Top 10 shortstop. Napoli probably isn't a Top 10 1B.

    And if he's not Top 10, providing ten names should be easy. People seem to overrate what the position is in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Napoli was 7th in 1B WAR (out of 26 1Bmen with 450 PAs).

    Drew was 6th in SS WAR (out of 18 SSs with 450 PAs).

    Salty was 9th out of 15 catchers with 450+ PAs. (9 out of 24 with 350+)

     

    I've been a big Salty supporter since early 2012, but Catchers I'd rather have:

    (assuming contracts are equal)

    Y Molina

    Mauer

    Posey

    Santana

    Lucroy

    J Castro

    Wieters

    Rosario

    Navarro

    McCann

    There may be some younger catchers I don't know much about, but Salty is close to being top 10.

     

    Castro

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not a bad list, and that's about what I come up with. A few of those guys are VERY debateable, but that's not the point. The point is an UPgrade over Salty is not a given across the league, nevermind what is actually available.

    Then there's this:

    -He's had only 2 seasons to be a true, full time, starting catcher...only 2.

    -In those 2 seasons his offense, and defense have gotten markedly better.

    -He is 28!!!! TWENTY-EIGHT! Right about when Varitek went from pretty good, to unquestioned All Star.

    -In those two years, he has proven very durable. I think something like 16 catchers caught at least 100 games...maybe only 14. It's a position that wears people out, and he's avoided most of that, but he has faded each of the last 2 seasons dramatically. I see that as the last hurdle to turning himslef into a Top 5 catcher.

    H'e always had the ability. He's recently been building the confidence. Wherever he goes, he will not compete for a job or even really worry about it for only the SECOND season in his career (I know I said he has started 2 seasons now, but one was under Valentine, though he was the starter, nothing was comfortable then).

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    A Ramirez

    H Ramirez

    S Castro

    J Reyes

    Andrus

    Desmond

    Hardy

    Rollins

    Tulo

    BOGAERTS

    LOWRIE

    IGLESIAS

    Kozart, Aybar and Segura would be in the discussion as well. There are more "glove wizards" and blue-chippers I also don't know, but there's 12 SS I would absolutely put over him, 15 I probably would, and likely a few more...pushing Drew to somewhere around the 20th starting SS in baseball. HE is very replaceable while I fear Salty will be gone, and people will only see his value next pyear when some unprepared kid is up, or Ross is asked to play 120 games and people see why he's never been a starter.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This site has Salty saving 10 runs per 120 games with his pitch-framing.

    It shows McCann with 4 runs saved per 120 games.

    It shows Salty is equal to Ross and better than Y Molina in this area...

     

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe so Moon, but that doesn't pass the "sniff test". Watching Salty and Ross tells me that Salty is nowhere near as good as Ross is at framing pitches.

    [/QUOTE]

    I saw just the opposite.

    The one thing I have always thought he was good at was framing pitches.

    He greatly improved his blocking WPs and minimizing PBs.

    He greatly improved his CERA and related skills with most pitchers.

    He still stinks at throwing.

    McCann is not better on defense, and he will have to go through a learning curve with our pitchers.

    It's not worth the extra money and extra years.

    We shouldn't sign any catcher to more than 2-3 years.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with everything you said here Moon. YOu and I are two of the few people that have ever give SAlty credit for improving. I can't think of a guy who, over his career, people have had less patience with at 3 STOPS! Atl, Tex, Bos. He's ready to break out, I'm thinking around .285, 20-25 HRs and 40+ doubles (41 this season, second on the team if anyone's curious or cares about extra base hits)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    A Ramirez

    H Ramirez

    S Castro

    J Reyes

    Andrus

    Desmond

    Hardy

    Rollins

    Tulo

    BOGAERTS

    LOWRIE

    IGLESIAS

    Kozart, Aybar and Segura would be in the discussion as well. There are more "glove wizards" and blue-chippers I also don't know, but there's 12 SS I would absolutely put over him, 15 I probably would, and likely a few more...pushing Drew to somewhere around the 20th starting SS in baseball. HE is very replaceable while I fear Salty will be gone, and people will only see his value next pyear when some unprepared kid is up, or Ross is asked to play 120 games and people see why he's never been a starter.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well if you don't like WAR, maybe you could explain what stats you're using to come up with your rankings. 

    First of all, there's no dispute that Drew was easily in the top 10 shortstops in 2013 for offensive production.

    And all of his defensive stats were above average. 

    Your ranking system seems to be based on 'the guys I like' instead of actual numbers.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

     


    Part of Salty's high BAbip has to do with his extra 21 line drives hit this year. That's about the difference in hits from 2012 to 2013 (per 448 PAs). 

    His BB% went up as well.

     

    I doubt he is back, if they benched him for Ross when it counted.

    [/QUOTE]

    Fair point but regresion to the mean can be expected just as Salty's 2012 7% increase in HR/FB was an outlier.    Salty had a LD% increase of ~6% compared to career %. 

    McCann also sat behind Ross in an Atlanta one game playoff   

    Catcher Brian McCann had a bad year at the plate; it's assumed that's because he has a frayed labrum and a cyst on the joint in his right shoulder. But that isn't the reason manager Fredi Gonzalez told him before Wednesday's game that his backup, catcher David Ross, was starting Friday's wild 

    card game, catching right-handed Kris Medlen.    It was a tough decision and a tough conversation, Gonzalez said, but McCann understood. Ross is better defensively even when McCann is healthy. He can throw 

    runners out, and the Cardinals run.

    "We know how well he can throw people out," Gonzalez said. "The Cardinals have a tendency to put people in motion a lot. And with the combination of Rossy and Medlen, maybe it gives you an opportunity to shut that down a little bit."

    The decision was about more than that, though Gonzalez didn't mention it. The two times Ross caught Medlen this season, Medlen established consecutive career highs in strikeouts: 12 on Sept. 3 versus the Rockies and 13 on Sept. 14 versus the Nationals.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    Part of Salty's high BAbip has to do with his extra 21 line drives hit this year. That's about the difference in hits from 2012 to 2013 (per 448 PAs). 

    His BB% went up as well.

     

    I doubt he is back, if they benched him for Ross when it counted.

    [/QUOTE]

    Fair point but regresion to the mean can be expected just as Salty's 2012 7% increase in HR/FB was an outlier.    Salty had a LD% increase of ~6% compared to career %. 

    McCann also sat behind Ross in an Atlanta one game playoff   

    Catcher Brian McCann had a bad year at the plate; it's assumed that's because he has a frayed labrum and a cyst on the joint in his right shoulder. But that isn't the reason manager Fredi Gonzalez told him before Wednesday's game that his backup, catcher David Ross, was starting Friday's wild 

    card game, catching right-handed Kris Medlen.    It was a tough decision and a tough conversation, Gonzalez said, but McCann understood. Ross is better defensively even when McCann is healthy. He can throw 

    runners out, and the Cardinals run.

    "We know how well he can throw people out," Gonzalez said. "The Cardinals have a tendency to put people in motion a lot. And with the combination of Rossy and Medlen, maybe it gives you an opportunity to shut that down a little bit."

    The decision was about more than that, though Gonzalez didn't mention it. The two times Ross caught Medlen this season, Medlen established consecutive career highs in strikeouts: 12 on Sept. 3 versus the Rockies and 13 on Sept. 14 versus the Nationals.

    [/QUOTE]

    That story was from last year. He had surgery after the season. Here are the throwing stats from this year between Salty and McCann.......

    Salty---111 games---89 st---21%
    McCann--91 games---47 st---24%

    McCann not only threw better, but gave up 42 less steals in only 22 fewer games. If the other team doesn't see you as a patsy, they don't try to run as much. And the more selective the other teams runners are, the harder it is to have a good percentage.

    As for catching pitchers, this year, McCann had a 2.98 CERA. It would be hard to complain about that no matter who he caught.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    That story was from last year. He had surgery after the season. Here are the throwing stats from this year between Salty and McCann.......

    Salty---111 games---89 st---21%
    McCann--91 games---47 st---24%

    McCann not only threw better, but gave up 42 less steals in only 22 fewer games. If the other team doesn't see you as a patsy, they don't try to run as much. And the more selective the other teams runners are, the harder it is to have a good percentage.

    As for catching pitchers, this year, McCann had a 2.98 CERA. It would be hard to complain about that no matter who he caught.

    A 3% better CS rate does not make him a better overall defensive catcher.

    The CERA number is an NL number where there is no DH.

    Compare his CERA with other catchers on his team over the years. Compare the win% of the team when he started vs the back-up. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    What about Softy?  Put him on ignore.  If u know what his latest alias is.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That story was from last year. He had surgery after the season. Here are the throwing stats from this year between Salty and McCann.......

    Salty---111 games---89 st---21%
    McCann--91 games---47 st---24%

    McCann not only threw better, but gave up 42 less steals in only 22 fewer games. If the other team doesn't see you as a patsy, they don't try to run as much. And the more selective the other teams runners are, the harder it is to have a good percentage.

    As for catching pitchers, this year, McCann had a 2.98 CERA. It would be hard to complain about that no matter who he caught.

    A 3% better CS rate does not make him a better overall defensive catcher.

    The CERA number is an NL number where there is no DH.

    Compare his CERA with other catchers on his team over the years. Compare the win% of the team when he started vs the back-up. 

    [/QUOTE]


    3% better with a lot fewer attempts makes him better stat wise at least. Whether he is better at throwing might still depend on the pitchers. I expect him to be a bad thrower, but slightly better then Salty. We might find out.  Personally, throwing isn't that important to me anyway.

    The average N.L. ERA this year was 3.73 without the DH. McCann's CERA the last 5 years has never been above that. This year, McCann had a slightly better CERA then Evan Gattis and about a full run better then Gerald Laird. In past seasons, he had a better CERA in 2012 then David Ross, but somewhat worse the 3 previous seasons.  Over the 4 seasons, slightly worse then Ross, but getting better. I find these numbers satisfactory for me. David Ross is a very good defensive catcher. He beat him last year and was close enough the previous years to feel solid about McCanns defense. And since I only consider his defense only average-good, these numbers are in line with that.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Compare the win% of the team when he started vs the back-up. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Last 2 seasons.....

    McCann starts----130-80----61.9%

    Backups starts----60-54-----52.6%

     

    And these were his worst offensive seasons, so he didn't help that much on offense.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    A 3% better CS rate does not make him a better overall defensive catcher.

    The CERA number is an NL number where there is no DH.

    Compare his CERA with other catchers on his team over the years. Compare the win% of the team when he started vs the back-up. 

    [/QUOTE]


    3% better with a lot fewer attempts makes him better stat wise at least. Whether he is better at throwing might still depend on the pitchers. I expect him to be a bad thrower, but slightly better then Salty. We might find out.  Personally, throwing isn't that important to me anyway.

    McCann is a better thrower than Salty for sure, but not much better.

     

    The average N.L. ERA this year was 3.73 without the DH. McCann's CERA the last 5 years has never been above that. This year, McCann had a slightly better CERA then Evan Gattis and about a full run better then Gerald Laird. In past seasons, he had a better CERA in 2012 then David Ross, but somewhat worse the 3 previous seasons.  Over the 4 seasons, slightly worse then Ross, but getting better. I find these numbers satisfactory for me. David Ross is a very good defensive catcher. He beat him last year and was close enough the previous years to feel solid about McCanns defense. And since I only consider his defense only average-good, these numbers are in line with that.

    I do not compare CERA between catchers on other teams, catching other staffs, in different parks, etc...  I don't even value comparing overall CERA between catchers on the same team, unless they both caught the same pitchers in a relatively similar percentage of the time.

    I have no idea how good Gattis or Laird are at handling a staff.

    To me, the only CERA numbers that matter are the ones pitcher by pitcher with each catcher and with significant sample sizes each. Also, if the back-up to McCann is not known as a good defensive catcher, then the fact that McCann has better CERA and OPS against numbers is not a feather in his cap.

    Here are some recent McCann numbers:

          OPS against (PAs)

    2013          McCann     Gatti          

    Minor     .650 (426)  .600 (247)  

    Medlen   .730 (601)  .615 (247)  

    Teheran .666 (432)  .741 (27)   

    Maholm  .783 (299)  .676 (286)  

    Hudson  .686 (308)  .512 (183)  

    A Wood  .646 (197)  .203 (25)

    The only pitcher McCann did better with, Gatti had a super tiny sample size of just 27 PAs. Out of all the pitchers with sample sizes of 180+ PAs with both catchers Gatti wins 5-0.

     

    Looking at 2012 might be more like comparing apples to apples as Ross was McCann's back-up:

    2012: OPS against (PAs)

                      MCCann       Ross

    Minor      .707 (635)   .584 (71)

    Hudson  .625 (457)  .730 (292)

    Hanson  .803 (524)  .823 (233)

    Medlen  .528 (348)  .488 (166)

    Delgado  .708 (211)  .760 (187)

    Beachy   .469 (242)  .652 (53)

    Martinez  .750 (191) .783 (115)

    Here it looks like McCann did better (4-1 when both catchers had 160+ PA samples)

    2012 CERA

             McCann    Ross

    Minor     4.04   3.93

    Hudson 3.15  4.35

    Hanson 4.90  3.64

    Medlen  1.75  0.81

    Delgado 4.15  4.70

    Beachy  1.58  4.05

    Martinez 4.09  3.90

    Maholm  3.44  3.86

    Of the 5 with larger sample sizes (in blue), Ross wins 3-2.

    I'm not about to go back and do tons of research until we sign McCann, but on the surface, he looks OK in this area over the last 2 years.

    (Salty looks OK too, this year and after April 25th of 2012.)

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Compare the win% of the team when he started vs the back-up. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Last 2 seasons.....

    McCann starts----130-80----61.9%

    Backups starts----60-54-----52.6%

     

    And these were his worst offensive seasons, so he didn't help that much on offense.

    [/QUOTE]

    True, and Ross actually had a better OPS in 2012 (.770 to .698), while Laird was worse (.796 to .739).

    Games where McCann played the most innings:

    2013: 60-34  (Others: 36-32)

    2012: 68-48  (Others: 26-20)

    2011: 61-59  (Others: 27-14)

    2010: 74-57  (Others: 17-14)

    Strange how the team did better during McCann's worse offensive seasons.

     

    I don't see McCann as the 5 slot hitter that will put the fear into pitchers to not pitch around Papi. To spend that kind of money, I'd want to get a great 5 slot hitter or a great leadoff hitter.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: What about Salty?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And Moon, nothing personal, the WAR stat is totally useless to me. Totally, utterly, and completely useless. I've said that for a few years now, so showing me how Stephen Drew rates on that broken scale does nothing for me. Reminds me of theo once saying "According to OUR metrics, JD Drew is worth a tick above what we're paying him." Drew is top ten in some broken stat?

    A Ramirez

    H Ramirez

    S Castro

    J Reyes

    Andrus

    Desmond

    Hardy

    Rollins

    Tulo

    BOGAERTS

    LOWRIE

    IGLESIAS

    Kozart, Aybar and Segura would be in the discussion as well. There are more "glove wizards" and blue-chippers I also don't know, but there's 12 SS I would absolutely put over him, 15 I probably would, and likely a few more...pushing Drew to somewhere around the 20th starting SS in baseball. HE is very replaceable while I fear Salty will be gone, and people will only see his value next pyear when some unprepared kid is up, or Ross is asked to play 120 games and people see why he's never been a starter.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well if you don't like WAR, maybe you could explain what stats you're using to come up with your rankings. 

    First of all, there's no dispute that Drew was easily in the top 10 shortstops in 2013 for offensive production.

    And all of his defensive stats were above average. 

    Your ranking system seems to be based on 'the guys I like' instead of actual numbers.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I look at a combination of games played, avg, obp, ops, an a smattering of other stats like hits, extra base hits, walk, Ks, etc. Basically, I go to yahoo, sort by position, then I can filter by any of about 20 different offensive stats.

    As for defense...I don't use any stats, I've always gone with what I see, and have not had an issue with it before. We all know GOOD defense when we see it, we all know BAD defense when we see it. Drew was neither. He was somewhere between very solid, and good, defensively. Range - ok. Hands - pretty good. Feet - definitely above average. He's fine.

    Offensively? Wholly underwhelming.

    - 19th in at bats, which given his age and injury history, makes me less than comfortable trusting him for a whole season.

    - his .253 avg didn't qualify as he didn't reach the minimum 502 ABs (see above), but avg, alone, slotted with the qualifying players ranks him 11 out of 19.

    - had the 21st most hits of any ss in baseball (meaning a few with less ABs had more hits)

    - 22nd in games played

    - 50 extra base hits (8 triples!) which puts him about 8th overall, and is his one saving grace

    - his .777 ops would put him 4th if he qualified.

    Looking at all that, I'd say he is far from EASILY a top ten offensive SS.

    He piled up most of his stats during half of his playing time, during the other half he was awful. He's a player who seems to be on the decline, whether age or injury history.

    I fall back to what I originally said: Drew, to me, is very replaceable. Moving, or delaying, Bogaerts for even a month at this point is foolish. How'd that work out for the Ellsbury/Cameron dynamic again? Not only was Cameron bad, it ran Ellsbury into a granite block 3rd baseman, lose-lose. And, seemingly, they are trying to make that same mistake. I may be wrong, maybe they just want the draft pick and don't even want him back. But if they WANT him back, I find that utterly foolish.

     

     

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