What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Seeing how the pitcher is batting I'm assuming this is a N.L. game. (although it could be an interleague game)  So I would assume the pitcher is probably a better bunter than he is a hitter (.190) I'd lay down the bunt....anyone else I would let them swing and pray they don't hit into a DP. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?


    swing away...only a strikeout is really hurtful....at best, there is a chance he could run into one, at worst, he grounds into a game tying DP....

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    Still too abstract to answer with any managerial confidence.  What is the pitcher's history bunting the ball?  If he is a skilled bunter (as some NL pitchers learn to be), I say put the bunt on.  But, if he is a weak bunter, I'll take the chance that .190 is solid enough to avoid a K and let him swing away.

    If you are purposely dangling the hidden third option of pulling the pitcher, I would keep my hoss in.  he is going strong, there is room to make an out, and the game is too close to go to the pen that early.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

     



     

    If you hit away there is always a chance of a double play home to 1B, or 2B to 1B and you possibly tie the game.  I personally wouldn't let him hit unless he was very successful in the past, even then it may not be my first choice.  If you bunt, any number of things could also happen but chances are unless you lay down the perfect bunt the infield would be in and the runner at 3B thrown out at home or trying to get back to the bag.

    I don't see many SP's going past the fifth inning without being pinched hit for considering the magnitude of the game.  As long as I have a solid pen I may take the chance on a much more capable pinch hitter/bunter for him.

    Tough call, because there are still four innings to score a run or two.  Best case scenario is you have a Youk or Victorino type pinch hitter available who could get a hit, lay down a more successful bunt, draw a BB in the normal sense, or casually not move out of the way of an inside pitch :)  Either way as a manager you end up either being considered a genius or incompetent. 

    Hey, it usually works out for Maddon!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Still too abstract to answer with any managerial confidence.  What is the pitcher's history bunting the ball?  If he is a skilled bunter (as some NL pitchers learn to be), I say put the bunt on.  But, if he is a weak bunter, I'll take the chance that .190 is solid enough to avoid a K and let him swing away.

    If you are purposely dangling the hidden third option of pulling the pitcher, I would keep my hoss in.  he is going strong, there is room to make an out, and the game is too close to go to the pen that early.

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't know how good of a bunter he is. The previous season, the pitcher had four sacrifices in 62 plate appearances, but I don't know how many times he was asked to bunt. In three seasons when he had his most plate appearances, he strikes out at a rate of 120 to 160 for 550 at-bats.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Still too abstract to answer with any managerial confidence.  What is the pitcher's history bunting the ball?  If he is a skilled bunter (as some NL pitchers learn to be), I say put the bunt on.  But, if he is a weak bunter, I'll take the chance that .190 is solid enough to avoid a K and let him swing away.

    If you are purposely dangling the hidden third option of pulling the pitcher, I would keep my hoss in.  he is going strong, there is room to make an out, and the game is too close to go to the pen that early.

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't know how good of a bunter he is. The previous season, the pitcher had four sacrifices in 62 plate appearances, but I don't know how many times he was asked to bunt. In three seasons when he had his most plate appearances, he strikes out at a rate of 120 to 160 for 550 at-bats.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yikes, thats a lot of Ks.  Do we have a percentage of successes to attempts on his bunts?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    If BOTH leagues had the DH rule this would not even be a thought.

    Can't remember the last time I was excited about watching a pitcher bunt the ball.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    am i home or away? pitch count?

    if my pitcher has thrown 5 IP i would serioulsy consider PH.  based on being in the mix this late in the season i am guessing i have an above average BP.  all hands on deck and the like.  get the starter who's day it is for off day throwing session up in a hurry.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    am i home or away? pitch count?

    if my pitcher has thrown 5 IP i would serioulsy consider PH.  based on being in the mix this late in the season i am guessing i have an above average BP.  all hands on deck and the like.  get the starter who's day it is for off day throwing session up in a hurry.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You're home.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    I have some errands to do, but I'll be back around 5-5:30 and let you know what happened. That'll give anyone else the chance to chime in if they want.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:

    In response to slasher9's comment:

     

    am i home or away? pitch count?

    if my pitcher has thrown 5 IP i would serioulsy consider PH.  based on being in the mix this late in the season i am guessing i have an above average BP.  all hands on deck and the like.  get the starter who's day it is for off day throwing session up in a hurry.

    You're home.



    Home or away I agree, your pitcher has thrown five innings which means he could still be going through the lineup for the second time if only one run was scored.  Like (Doubront) at times things could still go south in a hurry as much as not.  Bring in a more capable bat if you trust who you have in the pen.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    am i home or away? pitch count?

    if my pitcher has thrown 5 IP i would serioulsy consider PH.  based on being in the mix this late in the season i am guessing i have an above average BP.  all hands on deck and the like.  get the starter who's day it is for off day throwing session up in a hurry.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You're home.

    [/QUOTE]


    then if i am manager he gets a pat on the backside.......

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    Too many unkowns.  Are we talking Verlander on the mound (okay, NL, Kershaw) or are we talking #5 starter? What shape is the bull pen in?  Have they thrown a bunch in the last couple games or are they rested?  What kind of speed is on 3rd? 

     

    All things being equal, I'd say go ahead and bunt.  Most NL starters can do it decently.  Perhaps a safety squeeze is in order if a fast runner/good baserunner is on 3rd.  Worst case is men on 2nd and 3rd with one out.  Best case is run in and man on second.

     

     

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?


    Pinch-hit.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    If it's a do or die game and the pitcher is hitting .190, it's gotta be a PH situation.  hit into infield can get the runner out at home or to SS can stop 3B runner going home and then 6-4-3 double play because of the pitcher at the plate, infielder likely come in.  To put pressure on the opposing team, pinch hitting would be the best solution and you get to choose which batter to face the pitcher also.  If the pitcher is righty, can send out lefty and vise versa.  And also the opposing pitcher has to be selective now that a real batter has come up to the plate.  If the pitcher was at the plate, doesn't have to be picky with pitch selections.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    You're losing 1-0 in a must-win game or your season is over. Clearly the opposing pitcher is pitching a brilliant game as well. I pinch hit unless the pitcher is known as a good hitting pitcher, in which case I have him swing away. I really don't want my guy to strike out or bunt into an out at the plate. In this tight a game it's not certain the you'll get a better chance than this, so you just have to take advantage of your best chance at scoring and that I believe is with a pinch hitter.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    The irony of this is that the other team was already on its second pitcher, who replaced the starter after 2.1 innings, allowing no runs, three hits, one walk and four strikeouts.

    Personally, I would have let the pitcher swing away. I'm not replacing my starter who's cruising in the fifth inning of a 1-0 game. With a runner on third, I'm not going to bunt, even a safety bunt, because I feel I'm giving up an out. The way I look at it, let the pitcher hit. Worse case, a shallow fly or pop up or a strikeout and there's just one out with the top of the lineup due up. A double-play ball will tie the score.

    Now no one is right or wrong IMO. I just thought it was interesting what happened and whom the manager was and how we look at things.

    Here's what happened, I came across a video of the game on YouTube (a you might like recommendation that showed up when I went to the the site).

    It's the second-to-last game of the 1967 season for the Red Sox against the Minnesota Twins. Jose Santiago was the starting pitcher. He struggled in the first inning -- three hits and a walk but escaped by just allowing one run.

    He's cruising after that -- retired 12 of 14 batters like I said, which is why I wasn't ready to replace him.

    For some reason, I fast-forwarded the game and don't know why, but the Twins replaced starter Jim Kaat with Jim Perry with one out in the third in the middle of an at-bat.

    In the fifth inning, Reggie Smith doubles to lead off the inning. There was a pinch-hitter in the inning but not for Santiago. Dalton Jones pinch hits for Russ Gibson and beats out an infield grounder. Ball took a bad hop and Rod Carew made a nice stop to prevent the ball from going into the outfield but could't get Jones at 1B.

    Now Santiago is coming to the plate. And Dick Williams allowed Santiago to hit away.

    Santiago struck out as did Mike Andrews who followed. So now there's two outs and runners still on first and third.

    However, Jerry Adair and Carl Yastrzemski hit back-to-back RBI singles to give Boston a 2-1 lead.

    After the Twins tied the score the next inning, George Scott hit a solo home run in the sixth then Yaz gave the Sox breathing room with a three-run homer in the seventh. Santiago went seven innings and Gary Bell, who had warmed up in the first, pitched the last two innings.

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The irony of this is that the other team was already on its second pitcher, who replaced the starter after 2.1 innings, allowing no runs, three hits, one walk and four strikeouts.

    Personally, I would have let the pitcher swing away. I'm not replacing my starter who's cruising in the fifth inning of a 1-0 game. With a runner on third, I'm not going to bunt, even a safety bunt, because I feel I'm giving up an out. The way I look at it, let the pitcher hit. Worse case, a shallow fly or pop up or a strikeout and there's just one out with the top of the lineup due up. A double-play ball will tie the score.

    Now no one is right or wrong IMO. I just thought it was interesting what happened and whom the manager was and how we look at things.

    Here's what happened, I came across a video of the game on YouTube (a you might like recommendation that showed up when I went to the the site).

    It's the second-to-last game of the 1967 season for the Red Sox against the Minnesota Twins. Jose Santiago was the starting pitcher. He struggled in the first inning -- three hits and a walk but escaped by just allowing one run.

    He's cruising after that -- retired 12 of 14 batters like I said, which is why I wasn't ready to replace him.

    For some reason, I fast-forwarded the game and don't know why, but the Twins replaced starter Jim Kaat with Jim Perry with one out in the third in the middle of an at-bat.

    In the fifth inning, Reggie Smith doubles to lead off the inning. There was a pinch-hitter in the inning but not for Santiago. Dalton Jones pinch hits for Russ Gibson and beats out an infield grounder. Ball took a bad hop and Rod Carew made a nice stop to prevent the ball from going into the outfield but could't get Jones at 1B.

    Now Santiago is coming to the plate. And Dick Williams allowed Santiago to hit away.

    Santiago struck out as did Mike Andrews who followed. So now there's two outs and runners still on first and third.

    However, Jerry Adair and Carl Yastrzemski hit back-to-back RBI singles to give Boston a 2-1 lead.

    After the Twins tied the score the next inning, George Scott hit a solo home run in the sixth then Yaz gave the Sox breathing room with a three-run homer in the seventh. Santiago went seven innings and Gary Bell, who had warmed up in the first, pitched the last two innings.

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

    [/QUOTE]


    In an extremely similar situation this year, Farrell pinch hit the pitcher[Peavy]. It was a 1 run game in the 5th inning, 1st and 3rd, but 1 out. A 1 run game. Kind of a must win[World Series tied at 1-1]. Peavy a career .173 hitter. Peavy had only given up 2 runs in the game, also in the first. Nearly identical.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

    [/QUOTE]

    lots of varibles but in a 1-0 game, if my starters name is Jon and he is dealing and his pitch count is around 75..I let him hit, any other i pinch hit and go to the pen...Whether I bunt or hit away depends on how the defense is setup. for example If the corners are playing even with bag i might have him fake a bunt on the first pitch, then if the corners creep in and are playing inside the box...I might let him swing away. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

    [/QUOTE]


    In an extremely similar situation this year, Farrell pinch hit the pitcher[Peavy]. It was a 1 run game in the 5th inning, 1st and 3rd, but 1 out. A 1 run game. Kind of a must win[World Series tied at 1-1]. Peavy a career .173 hitter. Peavy had only given up 2 runs in the game, also in the first. Nearly identical.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think it was similar.

    Santiago's one run in the first then four shutdown innings was a lot more dominant than Peavy's outing. Peavy allowed two runs in the first then had two shutdown innings before struggling in the fourth -- two singles and a walk.

    So it was a lot easier of a call to replace Peavy who was coming off a shaky inning. Santiago was shutting down the Twins.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnnyLefty. Show JohnnyLefty's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In this situation I would pinch hit for him...risky decision but this is an important game. So you have to treat it like a playoff game. You pinch hit for the pitcher and you let the pinch hitter swing away and hope for a sac fly.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What should the manager have the batter do in this scenario:

    Pennant Race. Your team is in second place. A loss would end the season, so this is a must-win game.

    It is the fifth inning. No outs. Your team is trailing 1-0 and there are runners on first and third with no outs. The pitcher, batting .190, is coming to the plate. Do you have the pitcher swing away or bunt?

     

     ADD: Your pitcher, who is at the plate, struggled in the first inning when he gave up a run but retired 12 of the last 14 batters he faced, including two Ks in the top of the fifth.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's simple:  Ed Barrow, Casie Stengal, Connie Mack and John McGraw would laugh at your question because, in their view, it just proved you are just another ignorant, stat-obsessed, geeky - and probably as gay as the other 10 percent of MLB players - that have ruined sports.  You obviously are intelligent and enlightened.

    But, of course, those eeefffing morons.....to my experience (100% straight personally due to personal taste) it's only the homophobes that seem to be really gagging for it....which is why they talk about it so much.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: What Do You Do In This Scenario: Swing Away or Bunt?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The irony of this is that the other team was already on its second pitcher, who replaced the starter after 2.1 innings, allowing no runs, three hits, one walk and four strikeouts.

    Personally, I would have let the pitcher swing away. I'm not replacing my starter who's cruising in the fifth inning of a 1-0 game. With a runner on third, I'm not going to bunt, even a safety bunt, because I feel I'm giving up an out. The way I look at it, let the pitcher hit. Worse case, a shallow fly or pop up or a strikeout and there's just one out with the top of the lineup due up. A double-play ball will tie the score.

    Now no one is right or wrong IMO. I just thought it was interesting what happened and whom the manager was and how we look at things.

    Here's what happened, I came across a video of the game on YouTube (a you might like recommendation that showed up when I went to the the site).

    It's the second-to-last game of the 1967 season for the Red Sox against the Minnesota Twins. Jose Santiago was the starting pitcher. He struggled in the first inning -- three hits and a walk but escaped by just allowing one run.

    He's cruising after that -- retired 12 of 14 batters like I said, which is why I wasn't ready to replace him.

    For some reason, I fast-forwarded the game and don't know why, but the Twins replaced starter Jim Kaat with Jim Perry with one out in the third in the middle of an at-bat.

    In the fifth inning, Reggie Smith doubles to lead off the inning. There was a pinch-hitter in the inning but not for Santiago. Dalton Jones pinch hits for Russ Gibson and beats out an infield grounder. Ball took a bad hop and Rod Carew made a nice stop to prevent the ball from going into the outfield but could't get Jones at 1B.

    Now Santiago is coming to the plate. And Dick Williams allowed Santiago to hit away.

    Santiago struck out as did Mike Andrews who followed. So now there's two outs and runners still on first and third.

    However, Jerry Adair and Carl Yastrzemski hit back-to-back RBI singles to give Boston a 2-1 lead.

    After the Twins tied the score the next inning, George Scott hit a solo home run in the sixth then Yaz gave the Sox breathing room with a three-run homer in the seventh. Santiago went seven innings and Gary Bell, who had warmed up in the first, pitched the last two innings.

    I thought it was interesting when I saw Santiago hitting away because if that situation happened this year -- same must-win game, same inning, same 1-0 score -- John Farrell (or Francona in other years) would have been ripped for not bunting No. 9 batter, certainly if that batter was a pitcher, but even if he wasn't.

    And many of those same folks praise Dick Williams as a manager, yet Williams allowed Santiago to hit and hit away.

    [/QUOTE]

    Great thread, Roy.  Didn't get to respond before you spilled the beans.  My answer would have been swing away, of course. :)

    A consideration would have been the speed of the runner at third.  Now that I know that it was Reggie Smith, the defense would have probably played for the DP up the middle and conceeded the run.  I wouldn't have had Smith break for home on a ball hit sharply to the corners, but I would on anything hit to the towards the middle, unless the second baseman and shortstop were in on the grass.  The runner at third also had the option of getting into rundown if he felt he was nailed at the plate, and could delay things until the runner on first made it to third.  There really wasn't that much to lose by swinging away and the defense would be prepared for the squeeze, so there probably wasn't much to gain from the bunt except for Jones's advance to second to put two runners in scoring position with one out - a very marginal gain considering things could always go wrong on a bunt too.

     

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