What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Well I was watching the Phils vs. Cards game. And it was the bottom of the 8th. The bases loaded. 1 out. Ok. Phils up 3-1. Ok, so my mind is thinking bunt(squeeze). Get that runner from 3rd home. Nope. Swinging away. Double play. Bang. Inning over and pretty much game over.

    I don't get it. What happened to the art of the bunt. The SOX have become famous for this(swinging away). Small ball can win games too. Now when the SOX had that left fielder with the great bat(his name need not be mentioned) with Ortiz batting in front, it worked. But since then, it has not worked so well.

    And tonight, why would the Cards not try and get that runner home with a bunt?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    In Response to What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT:
    [QUOTE]Well I was watching the Phils vs. Cards game. And it was the bottom of the 8th. The bases loaded. 1 out. Ok. Phils up 3-1. Ok, so my mind is thinking bunt(squeeze). Get that runner from 3rd home. Nope. Swinging away. Double play. Bang. Inning over and pretty much game over. I don't get it. What happened to the art of the bunt. The SOX have become famous for this(swinging away). Small ball can win games too. Now when the SOX had that left fielder with the great bat(his name need not be mentioned) with Ortiz batting in front, it worked. But since then, it has not worked so well. And tonight, why would the Cards not try and get that runner home with a bunt?
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]

    A squeeze bunt with the bases loaded and you just need to tough the plate with no tag is a low percentage play. You're basically giving up an out. That the Cards hit into a double play doesn't make it the wrong decision -- especially down by two runs. Maybe if you need just one run to tie, it might be worth the gamble -- maybe.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Best Bunt ever?  Gary Allenson in 1982 in early late Aug/early Sept on a late Sat afternoon against the Angels.  2 men out.  bases juiced.  DeCines falls down.  Game ovah.  And yes, I was there!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think the new manager ought to watch that game again!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_3992292. Show user_3992292's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    This kid who grounded out into a double play only played 75 games this year as well he was a replacement OF for injured Matt Holiday.  Plus he have hit 11 homeruns this year.  So therefore he got power, and of course the Cardinals manager hope that he can just hit a long hard fly ball to try to get at least one run via either a hit or S.F.  Cant just force a power hitter to just make a suicide squeeze bunt where he may hardly bunt a ball in his career.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

      YOU NEED TO ASK THEO & TITO !!!!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mtrax. Show mtrax's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    This is a ridiculous thread.
    You don't bunt with the bases loaded down by two runs in the 8th inning.
    A single scores two runs. A double might give you the lead.
    You can't give up an out hoping to score a run.
    Odds are you will be thrown out at home on a force play anyway.
    Dumb...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Every major league player should be able to lay down a bunt. In my mind, October games call for it more than the regular season. Ok. So maybe not a squeeze for as roy explained: it is to easy to make an out. But a good bunt down the lines when not expected can really cause some damage. Plus, its exciting, cause everything has to go right for the defense to make that right out. And it puts pressure on the pitcher to become a quality fielder too.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

     antiqueman1


      Bunts are banned in Boston.  Have been all my life.  Every once in a while someone tries ... but they are backroom, speak easy bunts ... not one that are practiced, relished and shared in the light of day.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    In Response to Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT:
    [QUOTE]Every major league player should be able to lay down a bunt. In my mind, October games call for it more than the regular season. Ok. So maybe not a squeeze for as roy explained: it is to easy to make an out. But a good bunt down the lines when not expected can really cause some damage. Plus, its exciting, cause everything has to go right for the defense to make that right out. And it puts pressure on the pitcher to become a quality fielder too.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]

    look at what you wrote, "everything has to go right".  How often does everything go right?

    And bunting a 98MPH fastball with movement is super easy.  No chance of popping it up and causing a doubleplay.

    And what if the pitcher sees the suicide squeeze coming and throws at the batter who instinctly dives out of the way, giving up the out.

    It's exciting for a reason - because it's risky.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Basball strategy has gone the way of the HR. Players don't hit behind runners; baserunning has become a joke; and just pitting the ball in play escapes these guys.
    The real reason though is that fewer managers have control and allow players to make the decisions on what they want to do.
    Make a $20M/year player bunt? Never happen unless he decides on his own.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mtrax. Show mtrax's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    How many sacrifice bunts do you think Ted Williams had in his career?
    Other then his rookie year, he had 2 in his career.
    Superstar players/top paid players have never bunted.
    It's not because the players make the decisions.
    It does not make sense to bunt your best hitters or to bunt with the bases loaded when down by two runs in the 8th inning last night.

    If the batter hit a grand slam last night do you think anybody would start a thread here stating that despite the game winning grand slam in the 8th inning, I think he should have laid down a bunt??? Crazy...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

     The most over-rated play in baseball. I always think of Gene Mauch, who was suppose to be this great statagist, because he would bunt in the first inning if the lead-off man got aboard. BTW you would be surprised  at the number of times the winning team scores  more in one inning, than the losing team scores the whole  game.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    I happen to like bunts, precisely because I don't think they are easy.  However, I am not at all sure they are a good idea in most circumstances. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    In Response to Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT : look at what you wrote, "everything has to go right".  How often does everything go right? And bunting a 98MPH fastball with movement is super easy.  No chance of popping it up and causing a doubleplay. And what if the pitcher sees the suicide squeeze coming and throws at the batter who instinctly dives out of the way, giving up the out. It's exciting for a reason - because it's risky.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it puts tons of pressure on the d to make the play perfectly. Without risk where are we: out of the playoffs.

    And we are not talking about Ted Williams batting here. I just thought the touch of small ball has left most teams. Why not bring it back? Since the juicing era is over, so may be the home run ball.

    Do you know how many times Ortiz could have gotten on base with that shift on if he just learned to bunt. He_l he could had even gotten some doubles off it. Well, no, not doubles cause he can't run.

    I wonder what the percentages are in situations like this one: is it higher for hits or outs when a game in on the line.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mtrax. Show mtrax's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Ortiz trying to bunt for a base hit when the 3rd baseman is 10 feet from 2nd base is completely different then bunting with the bases loaded when down by two runs in the 8th inning.
    It is not hard for fielders to pick up a bunt and throw it to the catcher for a force out.

    Here's some stats to show that teams do still bunt:
    Yankees sacrifice bunts:
    2011 - 36
    1991 - 37
    1973 - 27 (first year of DH)

    This was a very weak idea for a thread.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    MTrax. Do you think every thread is gold on here? Give me a break. It was just food for thought.

    It is hard for fielders to pick up the ball and throw home if they are not expecting it. And no one was expecting it. It just would have been great to see a bunt on that play. Just my opinion.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

     There is an old baseball axiom which states "teams that play for one run is usually all they get" I'm from the Earl Weaver school of good pitching and the three run homer.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Glad two posters brought up the contrasting styles of Gene Mauch and Earl Weaver.

    Weaver managed 4 pennant winners, 1 World Series winner and 5 teams that won 100+ games.  Mauch's teams did how many of those things?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Right - they team didn't make the playoffs because they didn't bunt.

    The Red Sox led the AL in runs scored - clearly they scored enough runs to make the post season.

    If your pitching staff is giving up 5, 6, 7 runs a game, you're not going to win the game by bunting.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hambonawilliams. Show hambonawilliams's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Clemens shot it up with steroids anfd it became a three run homer...by Barry Bonds

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Apparently they did not score enough runs or they would have made it to the post season.  I am in no way saying nor did I say the Sox did not make the playoffs for lack of bunting.

    Clearly they did not make the playoffs because their pitching was horrendous in Sept. And I agree with you dirty, when you give up 5,6,7 runs a game, you are not going to win with bunting or too many other ways for that matter.

    I just was trying to imply there is a time and a place for small ball and it is hardly seen anymore. It would have been great to see the Cards bunt there in that situation.

    I also love it when teams like the angels and rays are aggressive on the basepaths. Risk. It is fun and exciting.

    To get back to Red Sox pitchers, they also stunk at keeping runners in check. Horrible. When Vlad steals a base, you have got serious problems.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Men on first and second, no outs, down one, late in the game. Is it smarter to try to move the runners up whether by bunting or hitting to the right side or just stand up there and hack?

    Lost art for many teams. Yankees do it all the time as do others. Good point, antiqueman.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Gary Allenson/Rich Gedman tandem..... I remember.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    In Response to Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT:
    [QUOTE]Apparently they did not score enough runs or they would have made it to the post season.  I am in no way saying nor did I say the Sox did not make the playoffs for lack of bunting. Clearly they did not make the playoffs because their pitching was horrendous in Sept. And I agree with you dirty, when you give up 5,6,7 runs a game, you are not going to win with bunting or too many other ways for that matter. I just was trying to imply there is a time and a place for small ball and it is hardly seen anymore. It would have been great to see the Cards bunt there in that situation. I also love it when teams like the angels and rays are aggressive on the basepaths. Risk. It is fun and exciting. To get back to Red Sox pitchers, they also stunk at keeping runners in check. Horrible. When Vlad steals a base, you have got serious problems.


    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]

    Quite true ... didn't score enough, consistently.  Went from double digit runs to being shut out.  A bunt here or there couldn't hurt, especially in the right place.

    That one bunt or two could have made the difference in a couple games, and we would not be sitting here so prematurely.  Even thought the pitching just plain fell apart.  As it turns out, one freak play or two could have made the difference.  But that is almost always the case.

    The defense went south.  That hurt the pitching, but simply put, the gloves turned to stone.  Not all, but enough to help doom the pitching.  It was painful to watch some plays ... there were some brilliant plays, but ... good defense is as much successful small ball as anything.

    I have wondered for years, since the '60s, how the Sox could somehow break the tradition of leaving so many men in scoring position.  Bunting couldn't hurt.  As has been said, we scored a lot.  But if defenses, like you said, were aware of the threat of our team bunting any time, they would have to take thatinto account ... more nervoous for pitchers, too, esp. if they field poorly.  

     
    We do not emphasize holding players on base.  Some of our pitchers don't even try.  It seems that a good move to first is also as good a deterrent as the effort to bunt someone along is to help score.

    Fundementals.

    I think that is what they used to be called.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What happened to BASEBALL and the BUNT

    Here's one thing that's ignored in regard to the Red Sox and Francona concerning the bunt. First, he will use the bunt on occasion, especially later in the season when players have a track record of what they can or can't do in situations. 

    But more to the point. The Sox ended up with about 22 SF bunts. But I also can remember at least six times the SF was called and the batter couldn't execute it. And before that's put on the Sox for not developing that skill, at least three times it was Crawford who couldn't execute it (and it might have been more). Gee -- didn't he play all those years with the Rays who are supposed to be great at teaching the fundamentals. And I remember at least twice it was Aviles who was just brought over in a trade and never had been in the Sox system.



     

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