What to do with Garin Cecchini?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from chickenandboose. Show chickenandboose's posts

    What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    I see him becoming the next Kevin Youkilis! High OBP, and no spot to play... Hopefully he doesn't ride the bench like Youk did for so many years...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I see him becoming the next Kevin Youkilis! High OBP, and no spot to play... Hopefully he doesn't ride the bench like Youk did for so many years...



    He's at least a year away from consideration for spot on the big club and has yet to accend to AAA. if he's a legit prospect, he'll likely begin the 2014 season in AA and if he rakes early on then by years end be in AAA...realistically we're probably looking at 2015 at the earliest before he even gets a cup of coffee In the bigs...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    The thing about free agency is that it doesn't matter too much when you bring a guy up.  You want his best 6 years.  A 15-year career is nice, but years 7-15 is at league value and often beyond that.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    Not a concern right now or for next year. By 2015 I imagine he could get some playing time, so we have over a full year to see Middy and Xander. 1b/3b and LF are options. Marerro could be in the mix around that time as well...All good problems to have.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    So many options...

    SS Boggy

    3B Cecci

    1B Middy

    or

    SS Boggy

    3B Middy

    1B Cecci

    or 

    SS Marrero

    3B Boggy

    1B Middy

    DH/OF Cecci

    or

    so many more...

     

    Sox4ever

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    If all three of Bogaerts Cecchini and Middlebrooks are on this team Cecchini will have to be playing first base or a corner outfield because Bogaerts and MiddlebrooK's are better defensively.  Cecchini has the arm for right, but playing first or a corner outfield will likely put more pressure on his bat.  His only true plus tool is his hit tool and his body looks like he could develop power.  He should develop power but just because he looks like he should doesn't mean the power will come. (think Ryan Sweeney) 

    If the power does come, it will be very easy to stick him in LF, RF or 1B.  I could see him sticking at 3rd, but only if WMB regresses because he is clearly a better defender.  It is possible that both WMB and Cecchini develop good power and Cecchinis defense improves enough to stick WMB at 1st and Cecchni sticks at 3rd, but I'd bet that never happens....I think it would be more likely him or WMB becomes a valuable trade chip at some point.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    But everything that has been said before me are good points and all plausible.  Worst case scenario it turns into a good problem to have.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    If all three of Bogaerts Cecchini and Middlebrooks are on this team Cecchini will have to be playing first base or a corner outfield because Bogaerts and MiddlebrooK's are better defensively.  Cecchini has the arm for right, but playing first or a corner outfield will likely put more pressure on his bat.  His only true plus tool is his hit tool and his body looks like he could develop power.  He should develop power but just because he looks like he should doesn't mean the power will come. (think Ryan Sweeney) 

    If the power does come, it will be very easy to stick him in LF, RF or 1B.  I could see him sticking at 3rd, but only if WMB regresses because he is clearly a better defender.  It is possible that both WMB and Cecchini develop good power and Cecchinis defense improves enough to stick WMB at 1st and Cecchni sticks at 3rd, but I'd bet that never happens....I think it would be more likely him or WMB becomes a valuable trade chip at some point.



    Is Middlebrooks really a clearly good (better) defenseive 3Bman? I'm not so sure.

    Cecchini gets on base a lot with BBs and steal bases. Hitting is not his only developed "plus tool" at this point.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    If all three of Bogaerts Cecchini and Middlebrooks are on this team Cecchini will have to be playing first base or a corner outfield because Bogaerts and MiddlebrooK's are better defensively.  Cecchini has the arm for right, but playing first or a corner outfield will likely put more pressure on his bat.  His only true plus tool is his hit tool and his body looks like he could develop power.  He should develop power but just because he looks like he should doesn't mean the power will come. (think Ryan Sweeney) 

    If the power does come, it will be very easy to stick him in LF, RF or 1B.  I could see him sticking at 3rd, but only if WMB regresses because he is clearly a better defender.  It is possible that both WMB and Cecchini develop good power and Cecchinis defense improves enough to stick WMB at 1st and Cecchni sticks at 3rd, but I'd bet that never happens....I think it would be more likely him or WMB becomes a valuable trade chip at some point.

     



    Is Middlebrooks really a clearly good (better) defenseive 3Bman? I'm not so sure.

     

    Cecchini gets on base a lot with BBs and steal bases. Hitting is not his only developed "plus tool" at this point.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Im talking about one of the 5 tools used to evaluate a baseball player: speed (base running ability) power, hit tool, fielding, and arm.  without getting into the debate of changing the 5-tool analysis scouts use I'd say his "plate approach" overall is plus.  He has the ability to work counts and put good wood on the ball. He knows the strike zone and comes to the plate with a plan.  I have not seen anyone from the sox organization, to baseball America, to soxprospects, to many others hype his defense.  As a matter of fact I've specifically heard some of those sources express concern over his defense.  I've also seen him in the field, and while I'm no scout, I wasn't thoroughly I impressed.  If all those sources are correct, I highly doubt Cecchini has a future here as a 3Bman if both Bogaerts and WMB is here.

    I could be wrong.  On Alex Speiers last podcast Jim Callis talked about Kevin Youkilis, who was never touted for his defense in the minors bt became a good first baseman and a solid third baseman in the majors.  However if power is the last tool to usually develop, then defense is usually the first so I wouldn't bank on Cecchini turning into a plus defender.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!



    So all players not at AAA are "not that good"  I'd say Cecchini has very good numbers this year.  He started the year in single A and lost a season to injury.  I don't think anyone in here is saying he should be up now or expect him to start next year.  He still has some development, but with his trajectory he could be in the picture for 2015.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!

     



    So all players not at AAA are "not that good"  I'd say Cecchini has very good numbers this year.  He started the year in single A and lost a season to injury.  I don't think anyone in here is saying he should be up now or expect him to start next year.  He still has some development, but with his trajectory he could be in the picture for 2015.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I would agree 2015 seems to be the earliest target date for him to get a cup pf coffee in the bigs, given where he is and his age. Whenever evaluating prospects aside from the obvious stats and defensive ability. Where they play is a key indicator of thier status as a legit prospect. Cecchini will be 23 at the start of next season and if indeed he's a legit major league prospect should be in AAA by the end of next year. All reports I've read suggest the kid has the tools...we shall see if he can continue his accent against advance pitching...

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!

     



    Most stars started out below AAA. What level Garin is at right now, tells nothing of his future in the bigs.

     

    You are not "impressed" by his stats?

    What stat are you looking at? Just HRs?

    Take a look at these stats:

    OBP

    2011  .398

    2012  .394

    2013  .469 (Salem) & .420 (Portland)

     

    XBHs

    2011  16 in 114 ABs

    2012  46 in 455 ABs

    2013  47 in 454 ABs

    Total: 109 in 1023 ABs (about 55 per 600 PAs)

     

    SBs

    86 in 279 games (about 45 per 162 games)

     

    Career minor league line:

     

    .312/.417/.457/.874 

     

    He is just 22.

     

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I see him becoming the next Kevin Youkilis! High OBP, and no spot to play... Hopefully he doesn't ride the bench like Youk did for so many years...



    WHO?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!

     



    Most stars started out below AAA. What level Garin is at right now, tells nothing of his future in the bigs.

     

    You are not "impressed" by his stats?

    What stat are you looking at? Just HRs?

    Take a look at these stats:

    OBP

    2011  .398

    2012  .394

    2013  .469 (Salem) & .420 (Portland)

     

    XBHs

    2011  16 in 114 ABs

    2012  46 in 455 ABs

    2013  47 in 454 ABs

    Total: 109 in 1023 ABs (about 55 per 600 PAs)

     

    SBs

    86 in 279 games (about 45 per 162 games)

     

    Career minor league line:

     

    .312/.417/.457/.874 

     

    He is just 22.

     

     

     




    He had 28 extra hits at A level out of 240 AB's and 19 extra base hits at AA out of 214 AB's.  He was hitting .350 at A level but only .290 at AA level.  Not much improvement from moving up to another level.  That is my whole point of looking at the stats!!

    But if you try to compare Bogarets and Cecchini stats at the AA level, Bogarets had a better stats than him.  Bogarets just keep getting better and better once he keep moving up.

    Cecchini can play at AAA level next year if Middlebrook and Bogarets can remain on the major league level.  Then we can all see how well Cecchini do at the AAA level.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    Keep in mind that stats aren't always indicative of talent in the minors, this rings truer the further down you go.  One clear example of this may be looking at a guys OBP% in the GCL where in reality pitchers giving up 10 walks a game is common and the defense is horrible.

    However in the mid minors things like BB/K may be more indicative of future MLB success than AVG.  

    SB are another stat to ignore.  Most catchers in the minors will either move off position or never have good arms to begin with; pitchers usually have bad moves as well.  Everyone runs in the Carolina league, Cecchini had great SB numbers last year in the Carolina league but dropped off for these very reasons.  If you consider the scouting over the numbers you'd know that his SB success had as much to do with his baseball instincts and ability to exploit inferior competition than his speed.  Although I did hear Cecchini say in an interview "well you can't be slow" when asked about his stolen bases last year, he did attribute his success to instincts more than speed.  While he probably has the ability to steal bags at the MLB level, he's likely to resemble Dustin Pedroia on the base paths and not Jacoby Ellsbury (which is still consider pretty darn good)

    Im not saying stats are useless, obviously they measure outcome which ultimately what matters in this game.  But you have to take the intangibles into account, such as level of competition, ballparks, the fact that these kids are sometimes asked to work on specific things, and they are still playing with unfilled out bodies, and they are moving up a learning curve that is not linear.  Some of these kids have inherent talents that cannot be taught.  You can teach a guy to play basketball but you can't teach him the genetics to dunk.  Baseball is not different, a player may have elite hand to eye coordination and bat speed, but if he can't put together an approach and good pitch recognition his "stats" will look horrible, yet he may have the most potential in the minors.  

    Sometimes a player may be over rated too, he may be more advanced but lack to the true skills to translate to MLB and have great numbers in the lower minors only to eventually go bust; this is why I was never high on Travis Shaw.  For many of the reasons I've laid out I feel a player like Deven Marrero is vastly underrated.  This doesn't mean a player like Marrero will be a star, he could still go bust but he could also put it all together and launch himself into Boston in a year or two.

    Cechhini, isn't Bogaerts talent, but he's the next step down andlooks to be in the beginnings of putting it all together and will be an exciting prospect to watch next year.

    But to reiterate my main point again, we must reference the scouting reports when analyzing the stats, because the stats aren't as indicative of true talent as they are on the MLB level.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!



    While no two sets of numbers are perfect comparisons, he compares favorably to Pedroia.

    Player A-.312/.417/.457/.874

    Player B-.307/.392/.452/.844

    Pedroia was a few months younger, and a better fielder, but the hitting numbers are spot on.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    If he is that good, he should be at AAA level by now.  But the way I looked at his stats, he doenst look too impressive.  He is more further away from being a major league player than being an AAA player.

    Give him a year, and if he still continue to have a simular stats this year, I would use him as a trade bait for a better player!!

     



    Most stars started out below AAA. What level Garin is at right now, tells nothing of his future in the bigs.

     

    You are not "impressed" by his stats?

    What stat are you looking at? Just HRs?

    Take a look at these stats:

    OBP

    2011  .398

    2012  .394

    2013  .469 (Salem) & .420 (Portland)

     

    XBHs

    2011  16 in 114 ABs

    2012  46 in 455 ABs

    2013  47 in 454 ABs

    Total: 109 in 1023 ABs (about 55 per 600 PAs)

     

    SBs

    86 in 279 games (about 45 per 162 games)

     

    Career minor league line:

     

    .312/.417/.457/.874 

     

    He is just 22.

     

     

     

     




     

    He had 28 extra hits at A level out of 240 AB's and 19 extra base hits at AA out of 214 AB's.  He was hitting .350 at A level but only .290 at AA level.  Not much improvement from moving up to another level.  That is my whole point of looking at the stats!!

    You are looking at just BA. His OBP is astounding. His AA OBP of .420 is higher than his single A OBP. The step to AA is often the hardest. 

    But if you try to compare Bogarets and Cecchini stats at the AA level, Bogarets had a better stats than him.  Bogarets just keep getting better and better once he keep moving up.

    Comparing the two does nothing for me. Cecchini has a way different skillset, so I do not see the purpose.

    Cecchini can play at AAA level next year if Middlebrook and Bogarets can remain on the major league level. 

    Where Cecchini is at or will be at has little to do with Boggy and Middlebrooks, until he gets to the MLB level and the positions have to be worked out. If Ben thinks Garin is ready for AAA in 2014, that's where he will be.

    Then we can all see how well Cecchini do at the AAA level.

    There's no reason to think he will not do well in AAA, but it does happen. I'm thrilled with his performance with Portland. I'm not sure there are many players who put up a .420 OBP in their first 300 PAs in AA.

    Bogaerts was much younger, so it's hard to compare. He's more of a power hitter, and his OBP has been very good. It improved at every level until AAA. It was .392 in AA. 

    [/QUOTE]


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    I doubt that this kid will get much of a chance to make the big club in spring training although he will likely get an invitation.

    Whether he is ready by late 2014 or early 2015 he needs to start getting more work at several positions as soon as possible.  Buy some more gloves, young man.

    Although Bogaerts may be the starting shortstop next season he clearly should have played much more third base (or somewhere else like maybe first or left field) while in the minors.

    Getting six games at third base prior to being called up was short sighted by the Sox brass, in my opinion.  Iglesias seemed to make the transition very well, but he is/was already a much further advanced defender who is not as tall or as big as Bogaerts.

    I am not sure how good Cecchini is at third base but he will certainly have a much better chance of making a big league contribution if he has more defensive versatility.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?


    I see Cecchini as an Alex Gordon type. I think he will end up moving to corner OF too. On paper, he might end up being better at a number of offensive areas then Gordon, which is saying a lot. Better base running, bat, and plate discipline.

    Defensively, Gordon is outstanding. Hard to say what Cecchini would do in the OF. As for power, Gordon is a 15-18 homer guy in a crappy HR park. Not sure Cecchini ever gets there though. I would guess short of that. But lots of doubles in Fenway.

    If correct, he would be a very valuable player, even if he can't play 3rd.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to charliedarling's comment:

    I doubt that this kid will get much of a chance to make the big club in spring training although he will likely get an invitation.

    Whether he is ready by late 2014 or early 2015 he needs to start getting more work at several positions as soon as possible.  Buy some more gloves, young man.

    Although Bogaerts may be the starting shortstop next season he clearly should have played much more third base (or somewhere else like maybe first or left field) while in the minors.

    Getting six games at third base prior to being called up was short sighted by the Sox brass, in my opinion.  Iglesias seemed to make the transition very well, but he is/was already a much further advanced defender who is not as tall or as big as Bogaerts.

    I am not sure how good Cecchini is at third base but he will certainly have a much better chance of making a big league contribution if he has more defensive versatility.



    He has a .926 fielding %.  I'm always suspicious of minor league fields, but that's a fair amount of errors (41 errors in 254 games).  That's one of the reasons why I am not overly concerned.  If he moves off of 3B to RF, it won't bother me at all.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    Garin Cecchini the hitter is the antithesis of Will Middlebrooks the hitter.

    Compare their cumulative minor league numbers:

    GC 1216 PA, 172 BB (14.1%), 195 K (16.0%), .312/.417/.457/.874

    WM 1902 PA, 144 BB (7.6%), 487 K (25.6%), .275/.332/.455/.788

    Cecchini has been particularly impressive this season with 94 BB and 86 K in 557 plate appearances.

    Cecchini probably has a brighter future.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to hill55's comment:

    Garin Cecchini the hitter is the antithesis of Will Middlebrooks the hitter.

    Compare their cumulative minor league numbers:

    GC 1216 PA, 172 BB (14.1%), 195 K (16.0%), .312/.417/.457/.874

    WM 1902 PA, 144 BB (7.6%), 487 K (25.6%), .275/.332/.455/.788

    Cecchini has been particularly impressive this season with 94 BB and 86 K in 557 plate appearances.

    Cecchini probably has a brighter future.



    And, I bet people would have expected Middy to have a much higher SLG%.

    Not so.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    Again I don't think we can compare a guy who's never played in the majors to one who has limited time.  If Ceccchinis power develops he his offense has a chance of making him a better player than WMB.  However we could equally assume WMB gets better as well, as of right now he has better power and defense and showed it at the top level.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What to do with Garin Cecchini?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Again I don't think we can compare a guy who's never played in the majors to one who has limited time.  If Ceccchinis power develops he his offense has a chance of making him a better player than WMB.  However we could equally assume WMB gets better as well, as of right now he has better power and defense and showed it at the top level.



    I haven't seen Cecchini play much, and I think you are right about Middy being ahead on 3B defense, but Middy has struggled on defense this year. I'm not one to judge by small sample sizes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he has "shown it at the top level" just yet.

    2013 UZR/150 (600+ innings)

    -10.4 (24th out of 28)

    2012-2013 (1000+ innings)

    -4.3 (17th out of 28)

     

    I'm not saying Middlebrooks is bad. The sample size is small, and he just broke into the majors a short time ago, but to me, he hasn't proven he owns the 3B job based on his defense.

     

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