What's the infatuation with Upton?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Promise4you2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Can someone name one player (from the past) that we gave up top prospects for and it turned out long term? Yes I know of Beckett and that was good for one year. everyone here yearns to have those players back that we traded. Why not just play the kids and see if maybe Bradley is a better ball player?

    [/QUOTE]

    1) We gave up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr for Pedro Martinez.

    2) We traded Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, and Jorge de la Rosa for Curt Schilling.

    We don't win a ring in 2004 without either of these guys.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good point, but here's the difference: Pedro, Schilling = stud hoss ace pitchers coming back.

    So if we learn from Red Sox history, we learn that the only kind of player we should be trading top prospects for is an ace pitcher.

    [/QUOTE]

    When's the last time we traded top prospects for a bat?

    I can't even remember, so how do we know we have a bad track record when we've never tried?

    I have always said that top pitching is our top prospect, so I too would rather trade for an ace than a big bat, but I don't see any aces dangling from trees the way Upton is right now. Pluck what you can get and go for the ace next winter.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We've been seriously burned by big-ticket busts the last few years.  Lackey, Crawford and to a lesser extent A-Gon. 

    Upton has too many red flags warning that he could easily be another bust in Boston. 

    [/QUOTE]

    List some offensive players with no red flags (or maybe just 1 red flag)...

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We've been seriously burned by big-ticket busts the last few years.  Lackey, Crawford and to a lesser extent A-Gon. 

    Upton has too many red flags warning that he could easily be another bust in Boston. 

    [/QUOTE]

    List some offensive players with no red flags (or maybe just 1 red flag)...

    [/QUOTE]

    In football, it would be Tom Brady.   ;)

     

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:


    Good point, but here's the difference: Pedro, Schilling = stud hoss ace pitchers coming back.

    So if we learn from Red Sox history, we learn that the only kind of player we should be trading top prospects for is an ace pitcher.

    [/QUOTE]

    When's the last time we traded top prospects for a bat?

    I can't even remember, so how do we know we have a bad track record when we've never tried?

    I have always said that top pitching is our top prospect, so I too would rather trade for an ace than a big bat, but I don't see any aces dangling from trees the way Upton is right now. Pluck what you can get and go for the ace next winter.

    [/QUOTE]


    greetings nut

    kinda agree with moon here

    R U and promise asking the right question

    as far as have the red sox ever...........

    or should the question be have teams who have traded prospects

    for position players had success

    that said , I admit off the top of my head only pitchers come to mind

    [/QUOTE]

    moon and pzac, are you kidding me.  Casey Kelly, Anthony Rizzo and Adrian Gonzalez ring a bell?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We've been seriously burned by big-ticket busts the last few years.  Lackey, Crawford and to a lesser extent A-Gon. 

    Upton has too many red flags warning that he could easily be another bust in Boston. 

    [/QUOTE]

    List some offensive players with no red flags (or maybe just 1 red flag)...

    [/QUOTE]

    Stanton.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:


    Good point, but here's the difference: Pedro, Schilling = stud hoss ace pitchers coming back.

    So if we learn from Red Sox history, we learn that the only kind of player we should be trading top prospects for is an ace pitcher.

    [/QUOTE]

    When's the last time we traded top prospects for a bat?

    I can't even remember, so how do we know we have a bad track record when we've never tried?

    I have always said that top pitching is our top prospect, so I too would rather trade for an ace than a big bat, but I don't see any aces dangling from trees the way Upton is right now. Pluck what you can get and go for the ace next winter.

    [/QUOTE]


    greetings nut

    kinda agree with moon here

    R U and promise asking the right question

    as far as have the red sox ever...........

    or should the question be have teams who have traded prospects

    for position players had success

    that said , I admit off the top of my head only pitchers come to mind

    [/QUOTE]

    moon and pzac, are you kidding me.  Casey Kelly, Anthony Rizzo and Adrian Gonzalez ring a bell?

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly...Adrian Gonzalez was never comfortable here and he is an example of another reason the Sox put much more emphasis on a player's makeup these days.  The Sox would love to have that trade back. Just a guess, but Upton may have enough red flags that the Sox don't see him as a great fit, especially when you consider what the asking price seems to be.

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wouldn't give 2 out of those 3 either, but I would give Bradley and a bunch of other young players and see if we can get the talks starting.

    [/QUOTE]


    thats the thing moon. i don't see any way around giving up at least 2 of those 3.. if we can then jump on it. but i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you

     

    Perhaps I am overvaluing Tazawa, Cecchini, Owens, Lava and a SS other than Boggy, but I think AZ would listen closely to an offer with just one of the big 3 involved, if we offered more players than what Seattle did.

    Hard to know how AZ values our kids.

    [/QUOTE]

    Tazawa, RDLR, Aceves and Webster--not on my trade list. Trade Boggie, Brentz and Barnes for J Up or trade Lester, Barnes and Miller for Upton. Or trade Pedroia even up for Upton if you think he is that good.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to MadMc44's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wouldn't give 2 out of those 3 either, but I would give Bradley and a bunch of other young players and see if we can get the talks starting.

    [/QUOTE]


    thats the thing moon. i don't see any way around giving up at least 2 of those 3.. if we can then jump on it. but i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you

     

    Perhaps I am overvaluing Tazawa, Cecchini, Owens, Lava and a SS other than Boggy, but I think AZ would listen closely to an offer with just one of the big 3 involved, if we offered more players than what Seattle did.

    Hard to know how AZ values our kids.

    [/QUOTE]

    Tazawa, RDLR, Aceves and Webster--not on my trade list. Trade Boggie, Brentz and Barnes for J Up or trade Lester, Barnes and Miller for Upton. Or trade Pedroia even up for Upton if you think he is that good.

    [/QUOTE]

    I highly doubt that they would trade any one of Lester, Boegarts or Pedroia "straight up" for Upton, never mind in any kind of package.  AZ doesn't seem to need outfielders at all and I can't see the Sox trading young pitching for a guy like Upton.  There doesn't seem to be a matchup at all between these two teams.  

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    I think the fact that any of us are pining like this for Justin Upton speaks to the nature of this particular market.  He is a good ball player with potential to turn into a really good ballplayer.  But I wouldn't mortgage any part of the future for him.  Justin Upton As Holy Grail of 2013 Off-season makes me appreciate the front office's Hold 'Em strategy all the more.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    moon and pzac, are you kidding me.  Casey Kelly, Anthony Rizzo and Adrian Gonzalez ring a bell?

    Yes, and now we have Webster, de la Rosa and got Hanrahan for Sands and others. I'd rather have what we got for AGon (not even mentioning dumping the dead salary) than Rizz & Keely.

     

    List some offensive players with no red flags (or maybe just 1 red flag)...

    [/QUOTE]

    Stanton.

    Oh! But he strikes out too much! (About 1 every 3 ABs. (Mind you, I could care less for K's, but I have heard many here bash non Ben acquired players for high K rates.)

    I'd love to have Stanton and would trade a lot for him. I wouldn't view him as trading the farm for, since in a way, he is the farm. Teams wait decades to get someone like him off their farm.

    I noticed that although I said list "some players", you listed one. That kind of makes my point about how every player has "red flags". Miggy? (lots to mention)

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Oh! But he strikes out too much! (About 1 every 3 ABs. (Mind you, I could care less for K's, but I have heard many here bash non Ben acquired players for high K rates.)

    I'd love to have Stanton and would trade a lot for him. I wouldn't view him as trading the farm for, since in a way, he is the farm. Teams wait decades to get someone like him off their farm.

    I noticed that although I said list "some players", you listed one. That kind of makes my point about how every player has "red flags". Miggy? (lots to mention)

    [/QUOTE]

    It's just my opinion but I see multiple red flags with Upton and not just in his numbers or skills.

    1) Road numbers.  Which are not just in parks like the Dodgers and the Giants.  In 9/15 or 60% of the NL parks he has a sub-700 OPS.

    Pitt (59 PA's) 699

    LA (182) 689

    SF (170) 680

    Hou (37) 641

    Mil (72) 630

    Cin (62) 591

    StL (69) 562

    Wash (45) 526

    Chi (66) 417

    2) Shoulder injury. 

    3) Attitude/fit.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What's the infatuation with Upton?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Oh! But he strikes out too much! (About 1 every 3 ABs. (Mind you, I could care less for K's, but I have heard many here bash non Ben acquired players for high K rates.)

    I'd love to have Stanton and would trade a lot for him. I wouldn't view him as trading the farm for, since in a way, he is the farm. Teams wait decades to get someone like him off their farm.

    I noticed that although I said list "some players", you listed one. That kind of makes my point about how every player has "red flags". Miggy? (lots to mention)

    [/QUOTE]

    It's just my opinion but I see multiple red flags with Upton and not just in his numbers or skills.

    1) Road numbers.  Which are not just in parks like the Dodgers and the Giants.  In 9/15 or 60% of the NL parks he has a sub-700 OPS.

    Pitt (59 PA's) 699

    LA (182) 689

    SF (170) 680

    Hou (37) 641

    Mil (72) 630

    Cin (62) 591

    StL (69) 562

    Wash (45) 526

    Chi (66) 417

    2) Shoulder injury. 

    3) Attitude/fit.

    [/QUOTE]

    Small sample sizes on many of those parks, but I do agree his road OPS is a concern (or red flag). My point has been that everyone has a red flag or more, and most with just a few flags are not available or would cost even more than Upton.

    His shoulder injury should not be long-lasting, but I am not his doctor. Of course, he'd have to pass the physical before the trade is completed.

    Attitude is not a major concern to me. 

    Fit? We need a middle of the order hitter. We need an OF'er, at least in LF. He can play there if need be.

    I realize he is not a perfect player, but we need to make major improvements that also gear towards 2014 and 2015. I don't see many other impact players being shopped right now.

    I have agreed I would not give up 2 of the 3 killer B's for him, so I do not think I am far apart from many of your feelings here.

    BTW, some other road OPS (small sample sizes)

    Boston (20) 1.050

    Det (28)  .789

    KCR (39) 1.007

    Mia (19) .806

    Oak (26) .819

    SDP (164)  .901

    SEA (12) 1.227

    TB (12)  1.667

    Maybe he can help us hit in Oak & Sea- places we stink at the plate.

     

     

Share