Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    FWIW, he only walked 10 guys in his previous 5 starts.

     

    I'd also add that strike zones are variable.  Sometimes guys have great games because the ump is just calling a wide strike zone that day.

     

    "only walked 10 guys" is supposed to be good?

    10BB and 2 HBP in 28.2 IP

    BB/9:               3.2

    BB+ HBP/9:   3.8

    Yes, that's better than his career norm BB/9 of 4.0, but not something to brag about.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     



    You basically said to dump him for a bag of old golf balls, ADMIT It...and youve been saying it since last yr, but...of course, like typical moon, you will cover your AS$ by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your not fooling me...nor anyone else here...except maybe your alter egos.the bottom line is this MOON...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I never cam close to saying "dump him for a bag of golf balls". Why don't you admit you are lying through your teeth?

    I still want to trade him... IF THE RETURN IS GREATER! How can anyone be against trading anyone for a better player?

    His value is very high to other GMs as he is to us.. maybe even higher. You never get that point.

    The trade a specifically mentioned involving Doubront (packaged with others) brought us back Justin Upton, Brett Anderson, Gio Gonzalez (2 winters ago), and Gavin Floyd (2 winters ago). Name one trade I suggested that was for dirt?

    We can agree to disagree over Doubront's motivational and attitude issues, but there's no need to lie about my position. I have always said I would not trade Doubront for lesser value. Obviously you think my "value" assigned to Doubront is way lower than yours, based solely on the fact that I have mentioned wanting trading him many times over 2+ years. I've said many many times, that wanting to trade someone does not necessarily mean a person does not value that player or is "bashing" that player. Doubront has a ton of talent. That's not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Getting a player like J Upton back for Doubront (and some prospects) is quite a compliment to Doubront, if you just take your blinders off for a second.

    I may be wrong, but I do not see many MLB players with motivational and attitude issues magically turning their lives around and becomming "gamers" for extended periods of time. Those issues almost always resurface throughout their careers in various forms. Yes, some do very well for a while and may even help a team win a ring or two, but my position has been to not gamble on an extended turn-around. Trade the valuable player to a GM who recognizes his value and will repay accordingly. We get equal or great value in return, but lose the gamble on his attitude issues. As I said, I may turn out to be terribly wrong about Doubront, and I'm prepared to admit it once a long enough sample size has been produced.

    I am happy as H3LL he is doing well. With the way Lester is pitching and Buch's fragility issues, I can see not trading Doubront, but every plan I have mentioned invoilving a trade of Doubront was predicated on a larger plan that brought us a top quality SP with durability and "gamer" qualities. Everyone on this site knows I have always been for upgrading the rotation from the middle up and not trying to find a better 4th or 5th starter that is still a 4th or 5th starter profile. Yes, Doubront is pitching like a #2-3 over the past 5 starts or so. That's great, but I have never been on to get all giddy over tiny sample sizes. Conversely, I do not often bash players over tiny sample sizes either.

    Like I said, when Doubront goes through a bad spell, as all pitchers do, you won't see me calling you out. That's the big difference between you and me. Admit it.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to klaus1954's comment:


    Doubront has pitched ten times. In eight of those outings he has allowed 3 earned runs or less. In those eight games he has allowed 16 earned runs in 48.33 innings and that calculates to an ERA of 2.97. That is excellent.

    So Doubront is an excellent pitcher in  80 percent of his appearances.  This is where one can use the mode or median to reflect performance instead of the average.

    Due to two bad outings on May 3rd and 8th ( 12 earned runs in 9 innings) his ERA is skewed up to 4.4 for the season.

    If you are a betting man, do you expect Doubront to be the pitcher that he was in 8 of 10 appearances or do you expect him to perform as he did in his two worse games.

    If you are a fan, one would expect that you choose that he is a going to pitch like he did 80% of the time.. Then there is Pumpsie.

     

     

     




    Doubront is a good pitcher, right now.

    If he can go deeper into games, on a regular basis, like he did in his last start, he'll be an excellent pitcher.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to klaus1954's comment:


    Doubront has pitched ten times. In eight of those outings he has allowed 3 earned runs or less. In those eight games he has allowed 16 earned runs in 48.33 innings and that calculates to an ERA of 2.97. That is excellent.

    So Doubront is an excellent pitcher in  80 percent of his appearances.  This is where one can use the mode or median to reflect performance instead of the average.

    Due to two bad outings on May 3rd and 8th ( 12 earned runs in 9 innings) his ERA is skewed up to 4.4 for the season.

    If you are a betting man, do you expect Doubront to be the pitcher that he was in 8 of 10 appearances or do you expect him to perform as he did in his two worse games.

    If you are a fan, one would expect that you choose that he is a going to pitch like he did 80% of the time.. Then there is Pumpsie.

     

     

     


    I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at, but Doubront has pitched 13 times (12 starts and 1 relief game of 5.1 IP)

    12 games: 63 IP  24 ER  (3.43 ERA)

    2 games: 9 IP  12 ER (12.00 ERA)

    Which is most likely to project at going forward?

    Neither. Most likely he will end up somewhere inbetween- like around 4.00 to 4.90.

     

    Numbers can be skewed almost any way you want.

    I could break the numbers down this way:

    Best 6 games: 36 IP  9 ER  (2.25 ERA)

    6.0 2

    6.0  2

    5.0 2

    5.0 2

    6.0  1

    8.0  0

     

    Worst 7 gms:  39 IP  27 ER  (6.23 ERA)

    3.2  6

    5.1  6

    4.2  3

    5.0  3

    6.0  3

    6.2 3

    6.2 3

     

    Since he has 7 in the "worst" column, one could argue he more likely to project towards the 6.23 ERA than the 2.25 ERA, but this is a distortion of data. I brought up this example up to show that comparing the worst 2 to the best 11 is also a distortion.

    All pitchers would see their numbers greatly improve if you threw out their worst 2 games. Of course, the ones with the worst 2 would benefit more, but it is so arbitrary to choose 2 starts, because that works best for this season and his situation.

    The fact is, Doubront has put us in a good position to win in 10 of 12 starts, but if you don't want to call 4.2 IP and 3 ERs and 5 IP and 3 ER "a good position", you could say he has done well in only 9 of 12 starts or 9 of 13 games. I'd say that's still very good for a 5th starter to pitch well enough to win in 9 of 13 games, and decent in 2 others.

    So far, our pitching problems this year have not been with our bottom rotation starters. Doubront, Dempster and Lackey have done very well. Aceves has also done well.

    Our issues have been with Lester's inconsistency, Buch's injury, and our closer problems.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     

     



    You basically said to dump him for a bag of old golf balls, ADMIT It...and youve been saying it since last yr, but...of course, like typical moon, you will cover your AS$ by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your not fooling me...nor anyone else here...except maybe your alter egos.the bottom line is this MOON...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I never cam close to saying "dump him for a bag of golf balls". Why don't you admit you are lying through your teeth?

     

    I still want to trade him... IF THE RETURN IS GREATER! How can anyone be against trading anyone for a better player?

    His value is very high to other GMs as he is to us.. maybe even higher. You never get that point.

    The trade a specifically mentioned involving Doubront (packaged with others) brought us back Justin Upton, Brett Anderson, Gio Gonzalez (2 winters ago), and Gavin Floyd (2 winters ago). Name one trade I suggested that was for dirt?

    We can agree to disagree over Doubront's motivational and attitude issues, but there's no need to lie about my position. I have always said I would not trade Doubront for lesser value. Obviously you think my "value" assigned to Doubront is way lower than yours, based solely on the fact that I have mentioned wanting trading him many times over 2+ years. I've said many many times, that wanting to trade someone does not necessarily mean a person does not value that player or is "bashing" that player. Doubront has a ton of talent. That's not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Getting a player like J Upton back for Doubront (and some prospects) is quite a compliment to Doubront, if you just take your blinders off for a second.

    I may be wrong, but I do not see many MLB players with motivational and attitude issues magically turning their lives around and becomming "gamers" for extended periods of time. Those issues almost always resurface throughout their careers in various forms. Yes, some do very well for a while and may even help a team win a ring or two, but my position has been to not gamble on an extended turn-around. Trade the valuable player to a GM who recognizes his value and will repay accordingly. We get equal or great value in return, but lose the gamble on his attitude issues. As I said, I may turn out to be terribly wrong about Doubront, and I'm prepared to admit it once a long enough sample size has been produced.

    I am happy as H3LL he is doing well. With the way Lester is pitching and Buch's fragility issues, I can see not trading Doubront, but every plan I have mentioned invoilving a trade of Doubront was predicated on a larger plan that brought us a top quality SP with durability and "gamer" qualities. Everyone on this site knows I have always been for upgrading the rotation from the middle up and not trying to find a better 4th or 5th starter that is still a 4th or 5th starter profile. Yes, Doubront is pitching like a #2-3 over the past 5 starts or so. That's great, but I have never been on to get all giddy over tiny sample sizes. Conversely, I do not often bash players over tiny sample sizes either.

    Like I said, when Doubront goes through a bad spell, as all pitchers do, you won't see me calling you out. That's the big difference between you and me. Admit it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok Moon...I'll bite...."motivational AND attitude" issues...are you kidding me? The list is ENDLESS of players who came into camp out of shape, or thought they were prima donnas. How about Babe Ruth....or Mickey Mantle...or Clemens ( he came into camp out of shape quite a bit his last 4/5 yrs with the sox)  David Wells...( he of the 12 beers a nite, but when you need a BIG win, there weren't many better) Cecil Fielder sure came into camp in SHAPE...haha, like I said, the list is endless...

     

    As far as your trades of Doubront...You wantedhot package him with Ells, and others for those players you mentioned, and to be honest with you...I wouldn't trade Doubront straight up right now for any of them. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     

     

     



    You basically said to dump him for a bag of old golf balls, ADMIT It...and youve been saying it since last yr, but...of course, like typical moon, you will cover your AS$ by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your not fooling me...nor anyone else here...except maybe your alter egos.the bottom line is this MOON...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I never cam close to saying "dump him for a bag of golf balls". Why don't you admit you are lying through your teeth?

     

     

    I still want to trade him... IF THE RETURN IS GREATER! How can anyone be against trading anyone for a better player?

    His value is very high to other GMs as he is to us.. maybe even higher. You never get that point.

    The trade a specifically mentioned involving Doubront (packaged with others) brought us back Justin Upton, Brett Anderson, Gio Gonzalez (2 winters ago), and Gavin Floyd (2 winters ago). Name one trade I suggested that was for dirt?

    We can agree to disagree over Doubront's motivational and attitude issues, but there's no need to lie about my position. I have always said I would not trade Doubront for lesser value. Obviously you think my "value" assigned to Doubront is way lower than yours, based solely on the fact that I have mentioned wanting trading him many times over 2+ years. I've said many many times, that wanting to trade someone does not necessarily mean a person does not value that player or is "bashing" that player. Doubront has a ton of talent. That's not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Getting a player like J Upton back for Doubront (and some prospects) is quite a compliment to Doubront, if you just take your blinders off for a second.

    I may be wrong, but I do not see many MLB players with motivational and attitude issues magically turning their lives around and becomming "gamers" for extended periods of time. Those issues almost always resurface throughout their careers in various forms. Yes, some do very well for a while and may even help a team win a ring or two, but my position has been to not gamble on an extended turn-around. Trade the valuable player to a GM who recognizes his value and will repay accordingly. We get equal or great value in return, but lose the gamble on his attitude issues. As I said, I may turn out to be terribly wrong about Doubront, and I'm prepared to admit it once a long enough sample size has been produced.

    I am happy as H3LL he is doing well. With the way Lester is pitching and Buch's fragility issues, I can see not trading Doubront, but every plan I have mentioned invoilving a trade of Doubront was predicated on a larger plan that brought us a top quality SP with durability and "gamer" qualities. Everyone on this site knows I have always been for upgrading the rotation from the middle up and not trying to find a better 4th or 5th starter that is still a 4th or 5th starter profile. Yes, Doubront is pitching like a #2-3 over the past 5 starts or so. That's great, but I have never been on to get all giddy over tiny sample sizes. Conversely, I do not often bash players over tiny sample sizes either.

    Like I said, when Doubront goes through a bad spell, as all pitchers do, you won't see me calling you out. That's the big difference between you and me. Admit it.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok Moon...I'll bite...."motivational AND attitude" issues...are you kidding me?

    No, I am serious, and you know it. Maybe you think it's OK for a plaayer to come to camp out of shape 2 of 3 years, and that it has no bearing on his performance that season. That begs the question, "are you serious?"

    The list is ENDLESS of players who came into camp out of shape, or thought they were prima donnas. How about Babe Ruth....or Mickey Mantle...or Clemens ( he came into camp out of shape quite a bit his last 4/5 yrs with the sox)  David Wells...( he of the 12 beers a nite, but when you need a BIG win, there weren't many better) Cecil Fielder sure came into camp in SHAPE...haha, like I said, the list is endless...

    ...yes, a very long list indeed, and almost all of them had issues in their careers due to their attitudes (PEDS, Booze, long bad stretches, multiple trades or allowed to become a FA and not re-signed.

    Clemens had 4 straight bad ot mediocre seasons with the Sox, before he walked.

    Mantle was a heavy drinker who was know to come to the park drunk. Yes, he performed very well, but that was not my point. I never said Doubront will never perform well. That's a figment of your imagination or a false assumption based on the fact that I wanted to trade him for over 2 years. You take that to mean, I think he stinks or will never do well for a stretch... even a long stretch.

    There are many many playes who have had "issues" with being out of shape. Some do well. Some so well in clutch situations. I hope you are not saying being in shape doesn't matter of effect the chances that a player will do well or not- or well in the clutch. 

    Another point, how many of the guys you listed, came to camp their very first year, when trying to make an impression enough to make the team or crack the starting rotation or line-up, out of shape?

    Curt Schilling is an example of a player who had similar "issues" when young, but turned himself around and had a long and productive career. It's not impossible. I never said it was. It is, however, rare. I hope Doubront becomes the next Schilling, and I will gladly admit I was wrong.

    Maybe I am carrying to large a grudge, but I think we make the playoffs in 2011, if Doubront comes to camp in shape and pitches like he did in 2012 or 2013.  Maybe he learned from that lesson, but coming to camp 2 years later out of shape kinda blew that theory.

     

    As far as your trades of Doubront...You wantedhot package him with Ells, and others for those players you mentioned, and to be honest with you...I wouldn't trade Doubront straight up right now for any of them. 

    I never packaged Ellsbury with Doubront. Maybe that was softy. I offered Doubront, Bradley, and 2 mid level prospects for Upton. I offered Doubront and Salty for B Anderson (before they got Jasso).

    I'd trade Doubront straight up for Upton or Anderson right now, despite Anderson's struggles. 

    I'm fine with your position, but you never "admitted" you lied about me saying I wanted to trade Doubront for a "bag of old golf balls". (Not even new ones!) I'll repeat what you said back atcha..

    ...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

    [/QUOTE]


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

    In response to jimedfred's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     


    Unlike Moon and many others, I still like the kid. By the way, his E.R.A. over last 7 games is now 2.81 , as opposed to his 6.50 or so from his first 6 games.

    Contrast the turnaround with Jon Lester's, 7.48 or something in last 6 starts.  So WHO'S the # 2 and # 5 again ?

    Apparently either Nieves or Doubront realized 95 % curves on 0-2 and 1-2 counts was just a BIT too predictable. Now using many more 4-seam fastballs plus a few changeups mixed in seems to be working.   GO FELIX !!

     



    I wonder if those percentages of pitch selection might work for Lester?? What do you think Jon---or are you going to be Mr. Predictable again vs the Tigers who will really make you pay. Maybe while changing your MO you could speed up your delivery. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Lester does not have the same arsenal of pitches that Doubront has. He never had a curveball...or a slider, though his cutter could be considered one...and NEVER took the time to develop a change like Doubront has...Doubront is just a better PITCHER...period

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     

     

     

     



    You basically said to dump him for a bag of old golf balls, ADMIT It...and youve been saying it since last yr, but...of course, like typical moon, you will cover your AS$ by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your not fooling me...nor anyone else here...except maybe your alter egos.the bottom line is this MOON...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I never cam close to saying "dump him for a bag of golf balls". Why don't you admit you are lying through your teeth?

     

     

     

    I still want to trade him... IF THE RETURN IS GREATER! How can anyone be against trading anyone for a better player?

    His value is very high to other GMs as he is to us.. maybe even higher. You never get that point.

    The trade a specifically mentioned involving Doubront (packaged with others) brought us back Justin Upton, Brett Anderson, Gio Gonzalez (2 winters ago), and Gavin Floyd (2 winters ago). Name one trade I suggested that was for dirt?

    We can agree to disagree over Doubront's motivational and attitude issues, but there's no need to lie about my position. I have always said I would not trade Doubront for lesser value. Obviously you think my "value" assigned to Doubront is way lower than yours, based solely on the fact that I have mentioned wanting trading him many times over 2+ years. I've said many many times, that wanting to trade someone does not necessarily mean a person does not value that player or is "bashing" that player. Doubront has a ton of talent. That's not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Getting a player like J Upton back for Doubront (and some prospects) is quite a compliment to Doubront, if you just take your blinders off for a second.

    I may be wrong, but I do not see many MLB players with motivational and attitude issues magically turning their lives around and becomming "gamers" for extended periods of time. Those issues almost always resurface throughout their careers in various forms. Yes, some do very well for a while and may even help a team win a ring or two, but my position has been to not gamble on an extended turn-around. Trade the valuable player to a GM who recognizes his value and will repay accordingly. We get equal or great value in return, but lose the gamble on his attitude issues. As I said, I may turn out to be terribly wrong about Doubront, and I'm prepared to admit it once a long enough sample size has been produced.

    I am happy as H3LL he is doing well. With the way Lester is pitching and Buch's fragility issues, I can see not trading Doubront, but every plan I have mentioned invoilving a trade of Doubront was predicated on a larger plan that brought us a top quality SP with durability and "gamer" qualities. Everyone on this site knows I have always been for upgrading the rotation from the middle up and not trying to find a better 4th or 5th starter that is still a 4th or 5th starter profile. Yes, Doubront is pitching like a #2-3 over the past 5 starts or so. That's great, but I have never been on to get all giddy over tiny sample sizes. Conversely, I do not often bash players over tiny sample sizes either.

    Like I said, when Doubront goes through a bad spell, as all pitchers do, you won't see me calling you out. That's the big difference between you and me. Admit it.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok Moon...I'll bite...."motivational AND attitude" issues...are you kidding me?

     

    No, I am serious, and you know it. Maybe you think it's OK for a plaayer to come to camp out of shape 2 of 3 years, and that it has no bearing on his performance that season. That begs the question, "are you serious?"

    The list is ENDLESS of players who came into camp out of shape, or thought they were prima donnas. How about Babe Ruth....or Mickey Mantle...or Clemens ( he came into camp out of shape quite a bit his last 4/5 yrs with the sox)  David Wells...( he of the 12 beers a nite, but when you need a BIG win, there weren't many better) Cecil Fielder sure came into camp in SHAPE...haha, like I said, the list is endless...

    ...yes, a very long list indeed, and almost all of them had issues in their careers due to their attitudes (PEDS, Booze, long bad stretches, multiple trades or allowed to become a FA and not re-signed.

    Clemens had 4 straight bad ot mediocre seasons with the Sox, before he walked.

    Mantle was a heavy drinker who was know to come to the park drunk. Yes, he performed very well, but that was not my point. I never said Doubront will never perform well. That's a figment of your imagination or a false assumption based on the fact that I wanted to trade him for over 2 years. You take that to mean, I think he stinks or will never do well for a stretch... even a long stretch.

    There are many many playes who have had "issues" with being out of shape. Some do well. Some so well in clutch situations. I hope you are not saying being in shape doesn't matter of effect the chances that a player will do well or not- or well in the clutch. 

    Another point, how many of the guys you listed, came to camp their very first year, when trying to make an impression enough to make the team or crack the starting rotation or line-up, out of shape?

    Curt Schilling is an example of a player who had similar "issues" when young, but turned himself around and had a long and productive career. It's not impossible. I never said it was. It is, however, rare. I hope Doubront becomes the next Schilling, and I will gladly admit I was wrong.

    Maybe I am carrying to large a grudge, but I think we make the playoffs in 2011, if Doubront comes to camp in shape and pitches like he did in 2012 or 2013.  Maybe he learned from that lesson, but coming to camp 2 years later out of shape kinda blew that theory.

     

    As far as your trades of Doubront...You wantedhot package him with Ells, and others for those players you mentioned, and to be honest with you...I wouldn't trade Doubront straight up right now for any of them. 

    I never packaged Ellsbury with Doubront. Maybe that was softy. I offered Doubront, Bradley, and 2 mid level prospects for Upton. I offered Doubront and Salty for B Anderson (before they got Jasso).

    I'd trade Doubront straight up for Upton or Anderson right now, despite Anderson's struggles. 

    I'm fine with your position, but you never "admitted" you lied about me saying I wanted to trade Doubront for a "bag of old golf balls". (Not even new ones!) I'll repeat what you said back atcha..

    ...when your wrong...your wrong. No big deal, why is that so hard for you to admit...? 

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    [/QUOTE]

    Moon..."a bag of balls" basically means for nothing in case you didn't know that...now...Brett Anderson? He can't stay on the field...and when he does, pitches with no preasure in one of the most pitcher friendly ballparks. Gavin Floyd...? I won't even get into why that trade could...and prob would go down as a very lopsided trade , and not in our favor...can we agree on that much AT LEAST?  Gio....c'mon...he also pitched in one of THE MOST pitcher friendly parks in ALL of baseball...on top of that, he prob will be suspended really soon for peds. We ALL knew it down here in So Fl...it's no secret w hat these guys do....the Miami crew leads the way. Now for Upton...never liked the kid...yeah, for short money I'd take him for his upside, but CERTAINLy not now...for Doubront AND OTHERS. For his contract. Give me Nava ALL day long...give up your GM hat and stick to being. Poor mns Bill James, cause hats what most of us enjoy from you here. Just a little constructive criticism if that's ok...

     

     

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Irrelevant. In how many innings did he surrender those three ERs? In just four of his 13 starts has he allowed fewer than three runs and pitched six innings. Less than that kind of performance is simply not very good. Overall his ERA is 4.38 with a horrendous WHIP of 1.480. And before his single gem vs the Rays his ERA was 4.91. He is at best, right now, a BOTR borderline SP.

    His record in those 11 starts is 24 ERs in 65 IPs.  That's an ERA of 3.32 with an average of 5.91 IP/GS.  You can think he is the worst pitcher in history, but absent one bad start, his stats are that of a solid #2.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    FWIW, he only walked 10 guys in his previous 5 starts.

     

    I'd also add that strike zones are variable.  Sometimes guys have great games because the ump is just calling a wide strike zone that day.

     

    "only walked 10 guys" is supposed to be good?

    10BB and 2 HBP in 28.2 IP

    BB/9:               3.2

    BB+ HBP/9:   3.8

    Yes, that's better than his career norm BB/9 of 4.0, but not something to brag about.

     

    Sox4ever



    BB for the league is 2.82.  Since he is a strikeout pitcher, I'd expect it to be higher.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    I'm just checking to see where they're all hiding. Crazy thing is...I just read a post/thread here that said the Sox are after Garza and that if we get him Doubront will be put into the bullpen...Is there something in the water up there in Ma..cause from my perch down here in Fl my eyes are watching a young lefthander blossom right before our eyes. And Salty is finally mixing up all 4 of his pitches beautifully, making Doubie very very tough. I love seeing and watching young pitchers develop and then GET IT...it took a couple of yrs, but it was well worth it. Next up....Webster, and please all you wanna be gm's...be patient

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Once again, it's a great thing our management has so much more patience than the fans on the forums.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    I'm pretty sure I haven't  bashed Doubront, but can admit to being nervous with him on the mound--numerous times.  He came to ST overweight and continues to struggle with his control.  However, as the OP says, he has four pretty good pitches and will battle.  Last night he had a leadoff triple and walked a guy with a 2 run lead, but then got the GIDP to limit the damage and the pitch count and managed to go 6.2 innings and the win in the first game on an important road trip to the west coast. 

    Good point above about Garza.  If the Sox get him, Doubront could be demoted, which I for one will not like.  Now, if Buchholz were to be out for the season, Garza might make sense, but the latest reports say his rehab is finally progressing.  Garza might be an improvement over Dempster, but the Sox are already paying Dempster like $13M/year. 

    Definitely a big game for Doubront last night. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    two things i cant understand

    1- the trade Salty maniacs - no explanation needed anymore

    2 -the Felix D bashers....there are five pitching slots at starter...is this guy so bad that he needs to be replaced? weve had Wakefield, washed up smoltz, etc stinking up this spot during the red sox prime years and now we cant handle a young pitcher in this spot - one who is likely to get better?

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Once again, it's a great thing our management has so much more patience than the fans on the forums.



    Doubront is a work in progress. To date the results have been mixed, the potential upside remains very high. As such, given that he's under the teams control, making pennies on the dollar. Not being asked to be a leader, just to to take the ball every five days and compete. Doubie ain't going anywhere and will be given every opportunity to pitch. Dispite the noise from the peanut galary.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Once again, it's a great thing our management has so much more patience than the fans on the forums.



    That was never in doubt.  It's a little like Nova for the NYY.  I think Doubront is better than Nova, but no one, not even wealthy teams, get rid of these kids that pitch reasonably well.  If these guys were FAs, teams would be lining up at $25M/3, as a starting bad.

    I think sometimes the issue is these guys pitch for practically free, and are therefore held to a higher standard.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Id like to think I understand, and are pretty patient with young starting pitchers. Most dont come into the league with a big parade like Strasburg etc... Webster for example, had a decent 1st start, then got roughed up pretty good. Some on here were already saying he was no good. Thats foolish. This is MLB and he isnt completely ready yet, but pitching a few games in MLB before hes fully ready will prepare him that much more for whats to come. His last start was great, 6IP 1ER 5H. He still has some consistency and control to work on, but for a 23yr old kid, thats a solid improvement. Hes adjusting well and should look good in the rotation next year.

    Doubront is the same thing. I didnt like him coming into camp looking like a tub of goo for the 2nd time. I questioned his heart. But since I am not there to hear whats being said Ill just leave it that JF knows whats best. LHP can take more time to develop and thus, more patience. Hes probably the best #4-#5 in MLB right now. Doubie has become very consistent and is constantly improving.

    You just cant expect greatness from every kid that is brought up to MLB. It usually doesnt work that way. You have to be patient. Unfortunately that word is not is some Boston fans' vocabulary.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to hill55's comment:

    On this forum a month ago I was ridiculed for citing advanced metrics when I wrote that Felix Doubront's FIP and xFIP suggested that the lefthander was pitching better than his then-woeful ERA would indicate.



    I didn't see you in the thread again, and wanted to make sure you weren't burned at the stake for being a heretic.

    BTW, are you in the BDC fantasy league?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Once again, it's a great thing our management has so much more patience than the fans on the forums.

     



    That was never in doubt.  It's a little like Nova for the NYY.  I think Doubront is better than Nova, but no one, not even wealthy teams, get rid of these kids that pitch reasonably well.  If these guys were FAs, teams would be lining up at $25M/3, as a starting bad.

     

    I think sometimes the issue is these guys pitch for practically free, and are therefore held to a higher standard.

    [/QUOTE]


    Nova win against the O's last night a complete game, 9 innings 3 hits 1 BB 11 Ks. 95-96 mph fastball the entire game, 2.73 era his last 4 outings.

    For now 6 starters.

     

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Nova win against the O's last night a complete game, 9 innings 3 hits 1 BB 11 Ks. 95-96 mph fastball the entire game, 2.73 era his last 4 outings.

    For now 6 starters.

    I took my son to the game.  It was fun to watch.  A few wicked hit line drives directly into someone's glove, but what I thought was a ridiculous number of off-balanced swings.  You can't tell at the stadium what;s fooling the hitters, but you get a pretty good glimpse at players leaning and swinging at the same time, and that never works out.

    But mostly, he has a 48/14 K/W.  That usually implies a fairly high level of success.

    As well as he's pitching, and I like him more than Hughes right now, I wonder if SD might think about Headley/Nova+?  Headley is better, but there is a decent amount of money involved.

     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    On this forum a month ago I was ridiculed for citing advanced metrics when I wrote that Felix Doubront's FIP and xFIP suggested that the lefthander was pitching better than his then-woeful ERA would indicate.

     

     



    I didn't see you in the thread again, and wanted to make sure you weren't burned at the stake for being a heretic.

     

     

    BTW, are you in the BDC fantasy league?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he is.... we need him !!!! Come on hill

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I had seen that someone from the Great Northwest had joined, with a great story I might add, but I wasn't sure if it was Hill, who sounds like he is from the same territory.

     

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