Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    Here are four pitchers. I ranked them by win total, rather than alphabetically or chronological.

    Two of them are in the Hall of Fame. Which two? And would you put all four in?

    And can you guess who they are?

    (NOTE: All 4 pitched well in postseason).

    20-W means 20-win seasons and Cys is number of Cy Young Awards.

    Pitcher        W-L     ERA    WHIP   ShO  GS       IP         K     20-W  CYs

    Pitcher A  229-172  3.30   1.199   49   484   3,486    2,416     4     0

    Pitcher B   224-166  3.26   1.134   42   476   3,449   2,012      5    1

    Pitcher C   216-146   3.46  1.137  20    436    3,261   3,116     2     0

    Pitcher D   209-166   2.95   1.148  49   465    3,432   2,486    2      1

     

    Pitcher A led league in ERA twice and shutouts twice.

    Pitcher B led league in wins twice, in ERA once.

    Pitcher C led league in wins twice and Ks twice.

    Pitcher D led league in wins once, Ks three times.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    A and D should not. B and C should. Drysdale is a bit over rated. Hopefully Schilling gets in. He deserves it.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    Hi Mav.  I don't agree re Schillling, but then again I think lots of modern players don't deserve it.....they are just fresher in the memory see Rice, Jim, Sutton, Don, thank Dog not Morris, Jack and many others.

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  If one wants a HOF of that sort of player, fine.  I don't.  I could compromise on a HOF with a Pantheon of, say, 100 players.....so all one's Rices and Suttons, Evanses and Morrises, etc. can be there to placate their hometown fans....but a special room reserved for the Benches, Ruths, Pedros, Riveras, Teds, Groves, Mays, Mantles, Aarons, etc. limited to 100 with relegation/promotion votes so the greatest 100 ever is dynamic.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Lets compare him to everybody.....Here is his all time ranking for pitchers with 2500 innings....

     

    K/BB---1st....By far. All time. Only Pedro is close.

    WHIP-5th....Behind 4 HOFers.

    WAR-14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    K's ---14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    ERA- ---16th.

    Only total wins is he weak and that is misleading. Throw in the strong winning percentage[.597] and playoff performance and he is a clear cut HOFer.

    I actually think that pitchers in the modern era like Schilling are getting short changed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Lets compare him to everybody.....Here is his all time ranking for pitchers with 2500 innings....

     

    K/BB---1st....By far. All time. Only Pedro is close.

    WHIP-5th....Behind 4 HOFers.

    WAR-14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    K's ---14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    ERA- ---16th.

    Only total wins is he weak and that is misleading. Throw in the strong winning percentage[.597] and playoff performance and he is a clear cut HOFer.

    I actually think that pitchers in the modern era like Schilling are getting short changed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wow, interesting, I will re-evaluate his career, thanks.  I'd add he also played for a lot of poor teams for years....I will feedback.....if you give a sh1t.

    I have little interest in counting stats, especially as fitness and medicine marches on.  For example, purely in terms of "hitting for average", how would you evaluate the "hitting for average" of a guy whose career BA was .281?  What about a guy whose career BA was .285?

    Those are pretty pedestrian career batting averages for a HOF player if one actually still thinks such simple back-of-the-baseball-card-stats matter much.  They don't, IMO, but if the latter had a career OBP of .379....do the math, assuming one doesn't need a calculator.

    To the point:  As I've stated before, I think Yaz is a clear-cut HOFer.....but not in the same class as the Ted, or the Babe, or Sandy, Mays, Aaron, the Mick or even Pedro...but clearly a top player....but his 3 bazzilion hits, as are Biggios 2.75 bazzilion hits, should be evaluated in relative terms (BA) not absolute terms (not dead yet).

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Lets compare him to everybody.....Here is his all time ranking for pitchers with 2500 innings....

     

    K/BB---1st....By far. All time. Only Pedro is close.

    WHIP-5th....Behind 4 HOFers.

    WAR-14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    K's ---14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    ERA- ---16th.

    Only total wins is he weak and that is misleading. Throw in the strong winning percentage[.597] and playoff performance and he is a clear cut HOFer.

    I actually think that pitchers in the modern era like Schilling are getting short changed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wow, interesting, I will re-evaluate his career, thanks.  I'd add he also played for a lot of poor teams for years....I will feedback.....if you give a sh1t.

    I have little interest in counting stats, especially as fitness and medicine marches on.  For example, purely in terms of "hitting for average", how would you evaluate the "hitting for average" of a guy whose career BA was .281?  What about a guy whose career BA was .285?

    Those are pretty pedestrian career batting averages for a HOF player if one actually still thinks such simple back-of-the-baseball-card-stats matter much.  They don't, IMO, but if the latter had a career OBP of .379....do the math, assuming one doesn't need a calculator.

    To the point:  As I've stated before, I think Yaz is a clear-cut HOFer.....but not in the same class as the Ted, or the Babe, or Sandy, Mays, Aaron, the Mick or even Pedro...but clearly a top player....but his 3 bazzilion hits, as are Biggios 2.75 bazzilion hits, should be evaluated in relative terms (BA) not absolute terms (not dead yet).

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with you here. Many get propped up simply because they could stay "propped up". Niekro's knuckle ball comes to mind. Add Sutton and Wynn. I have also been re-evaluating Tom Glavine. Other then play on a great team forever with Andruw Jones defense behind him, not too sure what he was great at except staying healthy and getting balls off the plate called strikes. Not sure if being Mr. Consistent is a resume builder for me. I just question if he played in Baltimore or Texas instead of Atlanta whether he would have made it.

    Anyway, I would vote for Curt Schilling over all of these guys. He had many more great seasons then any of them. Played on some crappy teams and almost always in hitters parks. And his pitching efficiency might be the greatest ever. His overall  resume is very good to me, inspite of the lack of wins and it is pretty sad that he lost votes this year and might never get in, although I think he eventually makes it.

    Getting to another one of your points, maybe they should have a seperate section for the truely great players. Call it the Hall of Greatness. Glavine, Rice, Perez, Sutton and Biggio would not belong in that wing. Probably not Curt Schilling either. He would be in the middle tier of goodness  though.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    Well FWIW, B and D are in the Hall of Fame.

    B is Catfish Hunter and D is Don Drysdale.

    A is Tiant, and C is Schilling.

    As far as I'm concerned, look at the stats -- if Hunter and Drysdale are in the Hall, you certainly can make the case for Tiant. Tiant led the league twice in ERA and shutouts, which to me shows a certain level of dominance. None of the others ever led the league in shutouts and only Hunter has an ERA title.

    I think Tiant's case based on the regular season is stronger than Schillings, but when you consider the era, you certainly can make the case for Schilling.

    All have strong postseason records, although Tiant doesn't have as many appearances as the others.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    I think Schilling definitely deserves to be in the Hall.  His regular season numbers, adjusted for era, are better than Drysdale's, and his postseason numbers are stupendous. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    I don't understand how anyone can say Drysdale and Hunter deserve to be in the Hall but not Tiant or Schilling. I can understand not any of them, but to say yes to any and no to others, I don't get.

    To add to the what I posted above, if you rate how many good seasons they had (winning record, double-digit wins and a good ERA)

    Tiant had 11 good seasons.

    Hunter had nine, including a .500 season, plus two more losing seasons with a decent ERA.

    Schilling had nine.

    Drysdale had nine plus two 13-16 seasons with a good ERA.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    None should be IMO.  C should be in before the other 3 simply based on K/IP...

    schilling's sock is in the hall.  that is good enough for me....

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In 4 decades, I have never heard about unearned runs in relation to a pitcher's skill.  This article convinced me that it is important.  

    http://www.replacementlevelredsox.com/2013/12/18/curt-schilling-is-an-obvious-hall-of-famer/

    "What this means is that Curt Schilling is more underrated by ERA and ERA+ than any other pitcher on the ballot. By ERA+, Schilling’s career (3261 IP, 127 ERA+) looks very similar to his contemporaries like John Smoltz (3473 IP, 125 ERA+), Kevin Brown (3256 IP, 127 ERA+) and Mike Mussina (3563 IP, 123 ERA+). However, if Schilling had allowed the same number of runs to score but allowed unearned runs at a typical rate rather than his historically stingy rate, he’d have had about a 132 ERA+.

    Kevin Brown, a reasonably great pitcher in his own right, is a fun comparison here. Brown and Schilling have nearly identical career numbers based on earned runs. However, Brown actually allowed 172 unearned runs while Schilling allowed just the 65. So Schilling was not terribly similar to Brown in his career run prevention, he actually prevented about 100 more runs. By RA+, Kevin Brown threw 3256 innings with a 22% better than league average rate of run prevention, while Schilling threw 3261 innings with a 32% better than league average rate of run prevention."

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to BMav's comment:

     

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

     

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  

     



    Lets compare him to everybody.....Here is his all time ranking for pitchers with 2500 innings....

     

     

    K/BB---1st....By far. All time. Only Pedro is close.

    WHIP-5th....Behind 4 HOFers.

    WAR-14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    K's ---14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    ERA- ---16th.

    Only total wins is he weak and that is misleading. Throw in the strong winning percentage[.597] and playoff performance and he is a clear cut HOFer.

    I actually think that pitchers in the modern era like Schilling are getting short changed.

     



    2500 IP would imply everybody? Shouldn't everyone in the HOF NOT A reliever, which are few, count? That's a little of a cherry pick; I guess then Koufax (2324 IP, 1.10 WHIP, 2.76 ERA) wouldn't count; ditto Addie Joss (also HOFer, similar IP, better WHIP & ERA than Koufax); Dizzy Dean (1967 IP, 3.02 ERA, but higher WHIP) also, and I'm sure I missed a few.

     

    Schilling may eventually get in; unfortunately, politics & personality matter when it comes to the voters. Tiant may need a veteran's vote, but he currently doesn't seem to be on their radar; that could change too.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to tom-uk's comment:

     

    In 4 decades, I have never heard about unearned runs in relation to a pitcher's skill.  This article convinced me that it is important.  

    http://www.replacementlevelredsox.com/2013/12/18/curt-schilling-is-an-obvious-hall-of-famer/

    What this means is that Curt Schilling is more underrated by ERA and ERA+ than any other pitcher on the ballot. By ERA+, Schilling’s career (3261 IP, 127 ERA+) looks very similar to his contemporaries like John Smoltz (3473 IP, 125 ERA+), Kevin Brown (3256 IP, 127 ERA+) and Mike Mussina (3563 IP, 123 ERA+). However, if Schilling had allowed the same number of runs to score but allowed unearned runs at a typical rate rather than his historically stingy rate, he’d have had about a 132 ERA+.

    Kevin Brown, a reasonably great pitcher in his own right, is a fun comparison here. Brown and Schilling have nearly identical career numbers based on earned runs. However, Brown actually allowed 172 unearned runs while Schilling allowed just the 65. So Schilling was not terribly similar to Brown in his career run prevention, he actually prevented about 100 more runs. By RA+, Kevin Brown threw 3256 innings with a 22% better than league average rate of run prevention, while Schilling threw 3261 innings with a 32% better than league average rate of run prevention.

     



    An interesting POV. However, I think ERA+ is misleading, due to the fact a higher league ERA allows for so much room below it; case in point, I don't think a 2.5 ERA when the league average is 5 warrants the same credit as a 1.5 ERA when the league average is 3; in fact, since it's not linear, it's even worse than that; I think ERC# is better, which also takes into account ERA# & WHIP#.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Which 2 of These 4 Pitchers Are in the Hall? And ...

    In response to nhsteven's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BMav's comment:

     

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

     

    I get the money pitcher in the playoffs concept, and that's important....but otherwise the HOF has become really watered down.   Compare Schilling to Pedro, Koufax, Grove, Young, etc....he's a different level of player.  

     



    Lets compare him to everybody.....Here is his all time ranking for pitchers with 2500 innings....

     

     

    K/BB---1st....By far. All time. Only Pedro is close.

    WHIP-5th....Behind 4 HOFers.

    WAR-14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    K's ---14th....Everybody ahead are HOFers.

    ERA- ---16th.

    Only total wins is he weak and that is misleading. Throw in the strong winning percentage[.597] and playoff performance and he is a clear cut HOFer.

    I actually think that pitchers in the modern era like Schilling are getting short changed.

     



    2500 IP would imply everybody? Shouldn't everyone in the HOF NOT A reliever, which are few, count? That's a little of a cherry pick; I guess then Koufax (2324 IP, 1.10 WHIP, 2.76 ERA) wouldn't count; ditto Addie Joss (also HOFer, similar IP, better WHIP & ERA than Koufax); Dizzy Dean (1967 IP, 3.02 ERA, but higher WHIP) also, and I'm sure I missed a few.

     

    Schilling may eventually get in; unfortunately, politics & personality matter when it comes to the voters. Tiant may need a veteran's vote, but he currently doesn't seem to be on their radar; that could change too.

    [/QUOTE]


    When you compare Tiant with Schilling, Drysdale and Hunter, I think Tiant is very underrated. I think he gets penalized compared to Drysdale and Hunter because he played longer and had more mediocre seasons. But if you take his last three seasons away, his W-L is right in line with those two, and his ERA would be lower and the rest of the numbers would be in line with them.

     

     

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