Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Tito-  I like Tito, 2 titles, amazing comebacks in 04,07,08 show he is guy who can guide teams through the toughest stretches but sometimes you have to shake things up if for no other reason to shake them up.  The team has been complacent for 2/3 seasons now. 

    2009 playoffs felt like they lacked energy or urgency and that team never felt like a true contender to me. Last year I thought Tito did an amazing job, guiding the team through countless injuries.  This year, again after a tough start Tito's calm demeanor helps the team but the seeming lack of fire from Tito caught up to him.  Lackey needed to be put in his place.  I think he hid Crawford at the bottom of the order too long and he wasn't able to turn it around this time, when their backs were against the wall.

    This won't sit well with some, but I think a new boss is what these guys need, maybe someone they don't feel all that comfortable around.  Maybe someone who tells Lackey he is an over paid fat a s s. 

    Theo-

    If the locker room was a problem this is on Theo.  Too many high priced stars not enough character guys.  He turned the locker room into the 2002-2006 Yankee locker room.  A culture of overpaid, underperformers.  He has missed so badly the last 2 off-seasons I don't know how you run him out there again in good faith.

    The reality is the Red Sox are stuck with this Theo team for at least a couple of years and there are probably not any big moves happening this off-season.  This is a good time to go in a new direction.  There are big decisions to be made on Paps and Papi, fresh, objective eyes are better on this than Theo.  Other than that this new GM only needs to find a RH hitting outfielder and assemble a bullpen, because the roster is mostly set. 

    Somehow we have been convinced around here that w/out Theo we'll be lost but you look at Mil, AZ, TB, even Toronto and you see there are obviously plenty of GM's out there who are capable of doing more with less than Theo spends.  Theo has gradually turned the Red Sox into what we onced claimed to hate, an overpaid, underacheiving, not very likable group.  If that is not a fireable offense, than what it is?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from crono420. Show crono420's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Agreed, get theo out now, think new GM later
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from crono420. Show crono420's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    shut up Encinitas, everybody is sick of your worship theo attitude
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]Tito-  I like Tito, 2 titles, amazing comebacks in 04,07,08 show he is guy who can guide teams through the toughest stretches but sometimes you have to shake things up if for no other reason to shake them up.  The team has been complacent for 2/3 seasons now.  2009 playoffs felt like they lacked energy or urgency and that team never felt like a true contender to me. Last year I thought Tito did an amazing job, guiding the team through countless injuries.  This year, again after a tough start Tito's calm demeanor helps the team but the seeming lack of fire from Tito caught up to him.  Lackey needed to be put in his place.  I think he hid Crawford at the bottom of the order too long and he wasn't able to turn it around this time, when their backs were against the wall. This won't sit well with some, but I think a new boss is what these guys need, maybe someone they don't feel all that comfortable around.  Maybe someone who tells Lackey he is an over paid fat a s s.  Theo- If the locker room was a problem this is on Theo.  Too many high priced stars not enough character guys.  He turned the locker room into the 2002-2006 Yankee locker room.  A culture of overpaid, underperformers.  He has missed so badly the last 2 off-seasons I don't know how you run him out there again in good faith. The reality is the Red Sox are stuck with this Theo team for at least a couple of years and there are probably not any big moves happening this off-season.  This is a good time to go in a new direction.  There are big decisions to be made on Paps and Papi, fresh, objective eyes are better on this than Theo.  Other than that this new GM only needs to find a RH hitting outfielder and assemble a bullpen, because the roster is mostly set.  Somehow we have been convinced around here that w/out Theo we'll be lost but you look at Mil, AZ, TB, even Toronto and you see there are obviously plenty of GM's out there who are capable of doing more with less than Theo spends.  Theo has gradually turned the Red Sox into what we onced claimed to hate, an overpaid, underacheiving, not very likable group.  If that is not a fireable offense, than what it is?
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Too much change all at once which the players would not respond to well on the field.  If Henry was to really make a change it should be Theo.  He signed Lackey and the only way to really improve our staff significantly would be to pay John his remaining contract to leave town, hire a cheaper GM with more restrictions and move on.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    I think there were 3 problems.  The biggest issue was Lackey.  Bad performer, bad club house presence, get rid of him.

    The second issue is that the Sox had no pitchers in the minors that could come up or who could be traded for a reliable starter once Buch went down.  Bedard was an OK pickup, but because Lackey was so bad, they needed a true #3 starter.

    The 4th issue is the pitching coach.  While it's understandable that the BP was overworked because the Sox had no legit #3, 4, or 5 starter, Beckett and Lester had all kinds of problems in September.  Beckett and Lester's performance is on the pitching coach.

    Everybody else on the team had to overplay to compensate for the pitching staff and it eventually took a toll on the team.

    If Lackey had an average season, the Sox would be playing tomorrow.  Heck, if he bad a bad season, the sox would be playing tomorrow.  But he had a historically bad season.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    I don't think anyone would agree that Boston is a "smallish" sports market.  Boston is considered the 7th largest TV market, but NY, LA, Chi, and Bay Area all are ahead of Boston and all have 2 MLB teams.  They operate with a top payroll every year so the objective of "putting a team together that can win now" is assumed, and missing the play-offs 2 straight years with a top payroll is actually not having a team that can win now.

    Lackey is John Henry's concern?  Theo is in charge of baseball operations, in your previous paragraph you credit Theo for all things baseball but then shift the blame to Henry for Lackey?  You can't have it both ways.

    Putting the shortcomings of Cameron, Lugo, Crawford, etc... solely at the feet of Francona is shortsighted and simplisitic.  I agree that he created a clubhouse culture that aids in the problem but Theo is bringing these guys in for $$$ well over what the market demands.  Theo does the shopping and Tito cooks the meal.  Any chef will tell you, "I'm only as good as my ingrediants." 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Why I get rid of Theo and Tito : Too much change all at once which the players would not respond to well on the field.   If Henry was to really make a change it should be Theo.  He signed Lackey and the only way to really improve our staff significantly would be to pay John his remaining contract to leave town, hire a cheaper GM with more restrictions and move on.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I disagree.  I don't think the change of the GM is going to have much impact on the clubhouse.  I'm of the opinion that once a player is done negotiating his contract, he doesn't have much concern for the GM.  This isn't the NFL, those dollars are all guaranteed.  If you want to shake up the clubhouse it is by firing the manager.  As far as how the players respond on the field, i'd like to think a collection of all-stars will be able to handle it.

    There is no way they pay Lackey 50 million to go somewhere else.  Maybe after next season they try and work out a trade where they only eat say 20 million of it but they are not eating 40+ million.  Not gonna happen.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito : I disagree.  I don't think the change of the GM is going to have much impact on the clubhouse.  I'm of the opinion that once a player is done negotiating his contract, he doesn't have much concern for the GM.  This isn't the NFL, those dollars are all guaranteed.  If you want to shake up the clubhouse it is by firing the manager.  As far as how the players respond on the field, i'd like to think a collection of all-stars will be able to handle it. There is no way they pay Lackey 50 million to go somewhere else.  Maybe after next season they try and work out a trade where they only eat say 20 million of it but they are not eating 40+ million.  Not gonna happen.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    The change of GM and Manager would which was the suggestion.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito : The change of GM and Manager would which was the suggestion.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Think you have a typo in there, so i'm not sure exactly what you're saying.  Sorry.  I'm of the belief that Tito should go because the clubhouse needs that jolt.  I believe Theo should be fired due to lack of a long term plan with all the big contracts and due to the ever growing list of failed moves.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito : Think you have a typo in there, so i'm not sure exactly what you're saying.  Sorry.  I'm of the belief that Tito should go because the clubhouse needs that jolt.  I believe Theo should be fired due to lack of a long term plan with all the big contracts and due to the ever growing list of failed moves.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I would agree Theo is to blame for previous and current contracts gone bad but who would you choose that might do better?  I agree Tito is too soft on the players so getting a more focused and tactical guy like Maddon would be a huge help.  I'm not sure losing both Theo and Tito would be a great idea, or make our guys play any harder.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    John Henry is a businessman and doesn't take kindly to revenue losses whether it be soccer, racing, hedge funds, or the Sox.
    This is now successive years where the Sox failed to make the playoffs and that's a lot of revenue loss between tickets, concessions, and merchandising.
    It's not likely that he'll allow a spending spree in only a fair year of free agents available this winter.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    John Henry is a businessman and doesn't take kindly to revenue losses whether it be soccer, racing, hedge funds, or the Sox. This is now successive years where the Sox failed to make the playoffs and that's a lot of revenue loss between tickets, concessions, and merchandising. It's not likely that he'll allow a spending spree in only a fair year of free agents available this winter.
    Posted by OnDeckCircle


    Agreed, Its bad enough Crawford had a bad year but sooner or later Mr. Henry has to look past Adrian and Schill to see contracts like Lugo, Dice K, Drew, Crisp "not bad" Crawford, Lackey, Jenks and others.

    Maybe Theo should withdraw 50mil from his saving and tell Lackey to move on.  That may help smooth things over.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    our players are fine, they simply need a manager that will whip them into good shape and hold them accountable for their performance

    our hapless manager took an entire month to wake up and quit the entire last month when he managed like we had a playoff spot clinched

    im more convinced than ever than replacing Francona and making our pitchers drop 20 pounds each/demanding hard playing would get us an extra 10 games a year.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Good grief all of you Theo apologists!
    Just look at the entrails of his sorry acquisitions over the years....Lackey, Crawford, Cameron, Lugo, Renteria, Smoltz, Penny, Schoenweiss, Clement, Drew....and so forth. He absolutely cannot judge talent! Stage one is completed: the CHOKE OF THE CENTURY is now completed. SOMEONE will be taking the fall for this, or its been all for nothing. If Epstein and Francona are not fired, we the fans have endured this for nothing.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    [QUOTE]I see it differently.  Theo and ownership's job is 1) put together a revenue generation plan that insures you can compete against the Yanks given the revenue sharing rules of basball, 2) create a pipeline of young talent to groom or use as tradebait, and 3) put together talent that can win now.  Check, check, and check. The Sox are in a smallish city but are referred to as a big market team - that is a testament to point number one.  Papelbon, Bard, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Bucholz, and Youk are all examples of developed talent.  Tradebait talent was used to secure AGon. That covers point two.  Crawford and Agon were this year's off season "prizes".  Lackey was two year's ago.  The talent was supplied. Turning to Tito, Lackey was certainly overpaid (that's John Henry's concern) but he wasn't a bum until he played for Francona.  Same can be said for Crawford, and to a lesser extent Lugo, Crisp, Drew, Renteria, Cameron, Gagne, etc.  Other than Ortiz (and that started under Grady), I am hard pressed to think of an imported player that dramatically improved under Sit and Spit's tutelage.   Francoma needs to go.  And the Sox need to give gold watches to Tek, Wakefield, and Drew.  Pap and Papi should be offered short term, reasonable $ contracts.  If that is unacceptable,waive goodbye.
    Posted by Encinitas[/QUOTE]

    Wow, talk about an unreasonable bias completely undemining your argument.  I thought your post was well thought out right until you started blaming Francona for Theo's bad aquisitions. Wow is that clueless.  I can see blaming Tito for the no heart, no fundamentals, no locker room presence of the team right now but to blame him for Lackey being a "bum" and poor play by Renteria et al just blows up any baseball acumen you might have.

    Final clue is the giveaway "Francoma" line used by the Jr High crowd.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmini. Show mrmini's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    i AGREE THAT COMA HAS TO GO. hE HAS RUINED EVERY PLAYER THAT CAME TO HIM WITH THE EXCEPTION OF BELTRE. IF THEY WOULD HAVE SIGNED BELTRE AND MARTINEZ AND KEPT YOUK AT 1ST THAT WOULD HELP WITH THE RIGHT HANDED BATTER PROBLEM AND HENRY COULD HAVE SAVED ABOUT 175 MIL, WE WOULD STILL  HAVE ALL THOSE PLAYERS WE SENT TO SAN D AND A TAD
    LEFT OVER TO TWEAK THIS TEAM THIS YR. WHAT A WASTE!!!!!!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Tito needs to go simply because the heat will be unbearable any 3 game losing streak in August/September next year. It (the choke) is already going to be a constant point of discussion, but a change needs to be made and unfortunately you can't fire the players. His limitations as a manager were exposed in that if the players can't spark themselves and turn it around... he won't. That being said... wait until his replacement comes in and whiney fans complain about the new manager "over managing" (see NY Yankees Girardi replaces Torre).
    Mrmini is the most ridiculous type of fan and is absolutely wrong. So Fran"coma" has ruined everyone except Beltre? Yup, Ellsbury was a stud for years until Francona got a hold of him. Manny, Ortiz, Scutaro, Varitek, Paplebon, Beckett, Lester, Youk, Gonzalez, Vmart, Millar, Bill Mueller, Keith Foulke (the list is endless) all completely fell apart once Francona managed them. Yeah I buy that. I also buy the fact that a team spends 170 million on a team and hires a manager who ruins them and leaves him there for 8 years. What a joke.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bnoaton. Show bnoaton's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Well I believe this is more than you could possibly pin on any 1 person. Tito has been a good Manager but its time to give someone else a shot, not because Tito didnot do his job. Theo has to be or get more input when spending money. Lackey was a disaster from day 1. He is a number 5 at best. Crawford just did not work out. Boston maybe too much for him. Drew is just at the end as well as Youk who has been injured for 2 years now. Time to let him go home to Cincy and move on. Shortstop is a mess. Scut is a supersub not your starting ss. Lowrie cannot stay healthy. Big Papi 1 hr in Sept. Papp will want a ton of money.Wake is to old. It goes on and on. Reminds of the 80 and early 90s sox who could not get it right.Cut yor losses and begin to remodel the team. they still have some good pieces and 3 good pitchers but need help almost everywhere. It should be an interesting off season for sure
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    John Henry is a businessman and doesn't take kindly to revenue losses whether it be soccer, racing, hedge funds, or the Sox. This is now successive years where the Sox failed to make the playoffs and that's a lot of revenue loss between tickets, concessions, and merchandising. It's not likely that he'll allow a spending spree in only a fair year of free agents available this winter.
    Posted by OnDeckCircle


    I like this angle too.  How many players is Henry gonna pay to contribute nothing to this team.  Mike Cameron, Lugo 2009-10, Lowell 2010, Schill 2008, that is 30+ for literally nothing, the epitome of money wasted.  And that list is a lot longer than that.

    Theo has made so many bad investments it is shocking he is still allowed to make moves.  He must have convinced Henry that Crawford and Gonzalez would bring in significant revenue but as you point out, missing the playoffs is leaving a lot of money on the table. As you say he is a businessman, how much bad business will he tolerate?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from crono420. Show crono420's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    Fire theo before he tanks the offseason
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito:
    In Response to Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito : Think you have a typo in there, so i'm not sure exactly what you're saying.  Sorry.  I'm of the belief that Tito should go because the clubhouse needs that jolt.  I believe Theo should be fired due to lack of a long term plan with all the big contracts and due to the ever growing list of failed moves.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    I am with you.  Theo has crafted a very unbalanced roster; a few megamillionaires like Shalackey and Crawdad, and a lot of marginal fringe players.  For a team that plays 81 games a year in Fenway, it is inexcusable to have lineups featuring 6 lefty batters.  No real righthanded power on the team, period. Other than Lester, what other starting pitcher has Theo farm system developed who has thrown 150+ innings - in other words, a true dependable starting pitcher?  Weiland was a complete failuer - no wins and an ERA of 7 over several too many starts!  Is that the best Theo can promote to Boston?  Where is our Nova (16-4 for NYY as rookie)?

    While teams like the Yankees, Rays, yes the Orioles too - I like some of those good lefty relievers they showed against the Sox the last couple of weeks, have developed good young talent and used it this September, what did we have?  We have stripped the farm in deals which have by and large not paid off.

    Bench is so weak that Tito could not even pinch hit for our weaker hitters in any key situations over the past few weeks.  Tito comes in for blame, too, with his bezarro batting orders - Crawford hittin second and going largely ofer and leaving 2 runners at 3rd base a couple of nights ago; Lowrie  - he of the 5 or 6 homeruns going ofer 5 a few nights ago!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: Why I get rid of Theo and Tito

    When we suggest that one or both of these guys should go, we next must ask who is available to replace them?  Tito and Theo are regarded in the baseball world to be among the best in the game at their respective positions.  You don't replace someone simply for a change - you have to be confident that you are getting an upgrade or at least an equal replacement. 

    I'm not saying there's never a good time for change, but it needs to make sense.  In this particular circumstance, I think Theo and Tito would be the most motivated individuals to make this right. 
     

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